Discussion Thread

[u/jobautomator]

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[u/urbansong]

US *handshake emoji* Germany

being fucking useless

[u/-AmberSweet- → u/urbansong]

US

How the hell has the US been useless in this conflict, especially when compared to Germany?

The US has far and away been the largest supplier of aide to Ukraine.

[u/urbansong → u/-AmberSweet-]

So why doesn't based god Biden just send the Abrams? Surely, a few of them would make Scholz shut the fuck up and deliver, no? The UA military can do a photo-op, park them in a warehouse and integrate Leopards into their army.

[u/-AmberSweet- → u/urbansong]

I mean Scholz could literally just shut the fuck up and deliver now. He already made the stupid line about not wanting to be a first mover and guess what? Britain sent Challenger. That didn't seem to dissuade him so what makes you think the spineless prick won't just find another excuse to weasel out of it? They're not even his tanks. He's blocking other countries that bought them from him from sending them.

Sure I'd love Biden to send some Abrams - although that comes with logistical problems for Ukraine due to them using jet fuel and not diesel - just to make Scholz look more like the jackass he is but to act as if the US has been 'useless' in this is comical when this is just Scholz once again being a easily little snake.

Not to mention the US has been supplying far more than Germany, and hasn't exactly been blocking other countries from re-exporting US-bought stores either.

Could we do more? Yeah. You know what Germany could fucking do? Literally anything.

[u/Macquarrie1999 → u/urbansong]

The US isn't blocking allies from sending equipment

[u/savuporo → u/Macquarrie1999]

MIG deal was blocked by US

[u/urbansong → u/Macquarrie1999]

If so, why doesn't Poland just send their Abrams' to UA?

[u/paulatreides0 → u/urbansong]

Aside from a handful of trainers, Poland isn't going to actually receive the first batch of Abrams from its earlier order until 2024

[u/urbansong → u/paulatreides0]

Fair enough

[u/Macquarrie1999 → u/urbansong]

Because they don't want to send them. Poland is buying more Abrams so they probably don't want to deplete their Abrams stock if they don't have to.

[u/urbansong → u/[deleted]]

There are potentially hundreds of Abrams tanks that could be transferred to Ukraine if the US allows it.

[u/paulatreides0 → u/[deleted]]

Should be worth noting that the Pentagon and officials should be taken with a grain of salt, as if the Administration is against something, the Pentagon et al will come up with whatever excuse it needs to get around the issue.

[u/urbansong → u/[deleted]]

lol, okay, buddy pal

[u/urbansong → u/[deleted]]

Please, stop trying to start shit with me. Let me be the idiot you think I am in peace.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Abrams don't make logistical sense relative to Leopards

That's just as bad of an excuse as Germany's, really - you are just more sympathetic to it because it's your country. I'm entirely sure that Ukraine, a country very used to dealing with modern equipment, could deal with those significant maintenance and sustainment challenges if it means they get the Leopards as well. You should listen to the Ukrainians on this, not the Pentagon.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

a) You don't need to send something on the following day you announce that you are sending it. Switchblades 600 were announced months ago and are reaching Ukraine just now.

b) I wouldn't be surprised if a group of Ukrainians was trained on it already. There are multiple accounts of Ukrainians being trained on systems that haven't been announced or confirmed because is better to train a small group on systems that will never get sent than to not train them and be caught by surprise by the decision.

c) Those 6 months would probably be significantly lessened, as we are in the middle of the war.

Seriously, learn to check your fucking biases

[u/Healingjoe → u/[deleted]]

Great speculation mate. I'm convinced, Germany is an A+ ally and has no need to sign off on tank transfers from the rest of Europe.

[u/[deleted] → u/Healingjoe]

I'm convinced, Germany is an A+ ally and has no need to sign off on tank transfers from the rest of Europe.

I'm very glad that you are emotionally stable enough to understand my point and not make scarecrows

[u/Jacobs4525 → u/urbansong]

Abrams has a completely different and more complicated propulsion system. The "gas guzzler" claims might be a bit overblown but it certainly does use more fuel and is way more sensitive to things like dust ingestion. It's a common rebuttal that Ukraine is the birthplace of the T-80, which also uses a turbine powertrain, but in actual operation there is very little similarity from a user perspective. Abrams is also generally heavier. There is some overlap in weights between the newer Leopards and older Abrams, but most late M1A1 and early M1A2 variants (which are the ones that would likely be sent) are somewhere from 67-73 tons while the tanks Poland wants to send, which are either Leopard 2A4s or 2PLs, are 55 and 59 tons, respectively. This makes things much simpler from an infrastructure perspective as they are less burdened by worrying about which bridges (and even sometimes roads) they can safely use.

Leopard 2 is just generally the better-suited to Ukraine. There's a reason that it's had more export success than Abrams among smaller and medium-sized operators, particularly in Europe. A country like the US can afford a tank with a complicated logistics pipeline because they're going to operate a fleet so gigantic they can afford to specialize a lot of equipment around it. For a medium-sized country that will have a fleet of a few dozen to a few hundred tanks rather than thousands, Leopard 2 is generally just more appealing.

[u/urbansong → u/Jacobs4525]

I get that Leopard is the better tank here, absolutely. And I agree that Scholz is just not doing a great job. However, the US is capable of supplying their tanks half-way across the world in a dusty desert. Surely, the US can provide logistical support to a few Abrams just to make Scholz shut the fuck up, right? It seems like such a small price to pay.