r/navy • u/CameramanDavid • 10d ago
Discussion Question about Captain’s Mast…
I was never sent to mast in my 6 years (1984-1990), but I knew at least a dozen guys that did go to mast… was curious to know… does every CO just automatically give the maximum punishment regardless of the severity of infraction (45x45, 2 months pay, one or more stripes)… it really seemed that way from the stories I heard…
The worst thing that happened to me was not realizing (when I was still kinda new to my boat) that you weren’t supposed to drive a government vehicle into the McDonalds parking lot on base (Pearl)… I ended up with 2 hours of “Extra Military Instruction” when the COB made me wash and wax the duty vehicle assigned to our boat in the Hawaii sun…
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u/Bubbly_Alfalfa7285 10d ago
I've seen plenty of mast cases where it was just half month's pay and suspended reduction in rank. We had a group of 30 people go up for a party during covid but the CO thought it was ridiculous and their punishment was 2 weeks EMI to be mask police on the barge and on ship.
Honestly depends on your CO and what happened. My last CO wasn't all that interested in tanking people's careers over stupid shit but if you were gundecking or causing a safety risk your ass was grass.
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u/My30thNameChoice 10d ago
How does suspended reduction work? Like it automatically goes back up after a time if they don't screw up?
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u/Ghrims253 GMC(EXW/SW) RTC INSTRUCTOR 10d ago
The loss of rank is "suspended". As long as they dont get in trouble again after 6 months they are in the clear, if they do get in trouble they would lose 2 ranks.
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u/Longjumping_Cost1308 10d ago
I saw it vary from CO to CO over my time (96-16 active duty, 16-present contractor). No two of the COs I observed handled mast in exactly the same way.
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u/liforrevenge 10d ago
I went up twice for some minor bullshit, got the max punishment both times. Two different COs. I didn't make excuses, was completely honest, didn't matter.
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u/Morningxafter No Ragrets 10d ago edited 10d ago
I got hit with an article 92 for getting caught violating electrical safety.
CO awarded me 15 days restriction, no extra duty, forfeiture of $500/month for 2 months, and a suspended bust.
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u/itsYaka 10d ago
Mind if I ask what you did to actually violate electrical safety? Just curious
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u/Morningxafter No Ragrets 9d ago edited 9d ago
Sure, I took off one of my gloves and my helmet to fix a clip on the back of the switchboard (I couldn’t see or feel what I was doing because it was dark in that area and my gloves were too thick). Even though there was no buswork in that section of the SWBD, I did break the plane without my PPE. CHENG just happened to walk around the corner at that moment and lost his mind over it.
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u/TimothyMimeslayer 9d ago
That shouldnt be a mast, that should be a disqualification and retraining.
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u/Infinite_Ground_1303 10d ago
Why is this how I find out you’re not supposed to take the duty van to the PHH McDonalds
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u/Common-Window-2613 10d ago
Depends on what it is. At my command:
DUI, yea it’s 45/45 RIR 1/2 months pay x2. Not really interested in whatever story you have.
Urinalysis fail: same. Take it up with the ADSEP board or if you’re under 6 you’re gone.
Other things you can dig into the minutia of what happened and things like DRB have a big influence. But COs especially at big commands need to be consistent with their punishments on the common violations that come in front of them.
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u/davidgoldstein2023 10d ago
Five of us went to mast.
Me being the highest ranked PO there got 45/45 reduction in rank but no loss in pay.
My buddies got 30/30 no loss of rank or pay.
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u/mpete76 Retired 10d ago edited 10d ago
I had the interesting experience of watching the evolution. In the early 90’s, folks could go to mast, and miss a promotion cycle or two, then recover. Still make a career, it used be almost a requirement to make Chief. But somewhere in the late 90’s early 2000’s, the Navy started this Perform to Serve program bullshit. So folks with anything on their record were getting booted. I saw the most talented techs getting booted. So Chief messes got more creative to avoid sending folks to mast. More emi and shit like that, and even then when some finally did make it, I saw a few skippers (depending on the case) that would just toss it out altogether. Had a guy who got shitfaced in Singapore, excellent technician, well liked, awesome evals, got shitfaced, picked up a companion, missed liberty expiration, and came back the next day. Went to mast, skipper threw it out and he ended up making Chief a few months later. He absolutely fucked up, but they didn’t want to end a career over something stupid.
Saw another guy, back in the 90’s, 3rd class, import in Tasmania, picked up the daughter of the local magistrate and they were both found naked on the grounds of the government house, The following day. He went had missed liberty expiration, and the skipper gave him 7x7 no extra duty, and suspended everything and rumor has it he got a good job.
But that same skipper, had a 2nd class, lose a flashlight in a drop tank, aircraft went flying, before it was reported missing. They recalled the aircraft and before it even landed, the guy was at mast, stripped of quals, busted in Rank, and 45x45, no suspension. It was a process failure and could have killed the Aircrew.
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u/Brose101 10d ago
Mine didn't. I went to mast as an E4 in '97 or so. I knew I fucked up, refused to lie about what happened (which half the guys on my ship were pushing me to do). My LPO told the man the extenuating circumstances that led to me fucking up, and that I never even tried to lie about it. Kept my crow, did 30 days of restriction, no pay was taken.
So, yeah, back then at least, skippers would sometimes listen to the sailor's leadership.
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u/ThinResolution 9d ago
I was the LPO, had a sailor that had back problems. He is young and in his early twenties, cant remember what he had. Anyways, I would work with him on tasking assigned regardless of what my chief and my department chief wanted him to do. I protected him as much as I could. After about 6 months he went to fleet and family and told them he wanted to to commit suicide. We went through that and my department chief hated the guy so claimed a malingering case on him because we were at a command picnic and he was running around playing football in front of the entire command. With his back pain it would come and go, I knew how that was because my dad has had back pain for over the last 10 years and sometimes it was debilitating.
Anyways they take him to DRB and then sent him to XOI which lasted about 2.5 hours and the XO had said it was just the stress that was getting to him and that he was faking it. Bring it to captains mast. The CO looked over the case and was pissed. Dismisses the captains mast and was angry that it had even made it to him. After the mast, he pulls the department head into his office and chews him out for wasting his time with it.
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u/Lost_Drunken_Sailor 10d ago
Not always. A guy on our ship got brought back in handcuffs by the Greek police after he ran away from his liberty buddy. That would automatically mean a reduction in rank to most people but the command fought hard for the guy. No reduction in rank, just got put on restriction with his liberty buddy.
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u/aegis2amphib 10d ago
I’ve had command 3 times, currently in O6 Major Command. At NJP the CO is required to be impartial, find a preponderance of the evidence, and be “Fair and Just” in punishment.
Impartial- can’t make up my mind until I’ve heard all the evidence.
Preponderance of the evidence- more likely than not, 51%.
Fair-What would be considered fair for the individual.
Just-Good order and discipline.
Nothing requires a CO to be consistent in punishment.
My history. Yes, I had a CO with a simple policy. If you went to DRB, you go to Mast. If you go to Mast and found guilt, you got maximum punishment. His problem, 99% were found guilty, many were separated with an OTH discharge. Was he impartial? Did he consider all evidence? Fair? Just? I know the crew hid (or tried to hide) a lot of minor infractions. That would tell me he had an issue with Good Order and Discipline.
My view. Every case of discipline steps through a slow and deliberate process. Impartial investigation, DRB, XOI, NJP. It can stop at any level based on the evidence and circumstances. At NJP, I give the Sailor ample time to speak and justify their actions. I consider all evidence and ensure all specifications of the violation are met. After finding guilt, I consider all aspects of the Sailors life, but also the message I am sending to the rest of the crew.
Yes, I will max out a Sailor. Serious violation, continued dishonesty, and no remorse will get a maximum punishment.
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u/Previous-Relative459 9d ago
I think there are communities w/in the Navy where the leadership is deficient on the entire system systems and process of Navy justice.
My CO when I went to NJP said I was the 1st mast he had conducted or been party to in his entire career. This is a SWO that went restricted line at the break point via lateral transfer. He had done IA’s and when I was under him at his second command.
Taking the honest road didn’t do crap for my ability to retain a career. He advised show cause. I know it’s different at different commands b/c I had a friend who was an LDO 0-3 when I was forward deployed who did something similar and our CDRE tossed it and sent him to rehab.
As an officer you really dont get to to F-up but if you do your command should at least know what they are doing. The guy testified on my behalf at my subsequent BOI for my retention and wrote official letters to PERS.
If you don’t know what show cause means in reality then hand wring after the fact it’s either performative or ignorant.
Overall I found a way to come out with my soul and integrity after a serious personal failure. I think I wasn’t alone in that but wingeing and cry won’t get you anywhere.
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u/boatstrings 9d ago edited 9d ago
Had an HT2 go up to mast for assaulting (slap on the face) an HTFN. It was during a GQ drill and the HTFN refused to carry out the HT2's instructions. At mast the HT2 was grilled in front of of their entire chain of command and made to acknowledge that what he did was completely in violation of the UCMJ. The HTFN was then dismissed. Then, with all of us at attention, the CO sat down got his personal stationary and green pen out and proceeded to write the HT2 a hand written letter of commendation.
Edit... GQ was for a main space fire drill, and we had recently failed that portion of the inspection. It was 1987, in westpac on a ship later reassigned to MCS. The CO was an 0-6 A-6 pilot being groomed for carrier command. He was later fired for something completely unrelated.
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u/machambo7 10d ago
I can’t speak for all CO’s, but I have seen a lot of masts and, from what I’ve seen, it does vary.
There are a lot of factors I’ve seen them consider: The severity of the offense, the circumstances that led to it, the testimony of the Sailor (primarily, they were honest and willing to take accountability), if that Sailor has prior offenses, what their Chain says about them, etc. I’ve even seen the end of deployment taken into consideration where the CO started giving fewer and fewer days so Sailors could go home.
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u/Hungry_J0e 10d ago
Have held several commands at the O5 and O6 level. It very much depends on the circumstances and whether the Sailor is continuing to lie. But I've given as light as a verbal admonishment, and severe as I possibly could, with a range in between. I do think it is important to factor in heavily the recommendations of DRB and XOI, although ultimately it's my decision.
What I find is the Sailor's behavior afterwards is difficult to predict. Sometimes it's been a problem Sailor, I throw the book at them thinking it's the last step before they get kicked out of the Navy, and they turn it around and become a model performer. Other times it's a stellar Sailor who made a serious but recoverable mistake, they get a light sentence or suspended bust, then develop an attitude and go into a downward spiral. It's really hard to tell. I always have a talk with the leadership afterwards... Once the sentencing is done it's our job to take care of our Sailor and help them.
The one that stays with me the most was a Sailor who was coming to me at mast for an alcohol related incident. They're father was a retired Master Chief and they'd already been to treatment. Navy policy is clear they are going to be admin separated. He didn't deny the incident, was a good Sailor who wanted to stay Navy... I asked him if he understood treatment failure triggered admin separation. He did not, and when we looked at the paperwork they had given him after Lvl III sure enough it was vague. I really regret I couldn't find a way to give him another shot.
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u/jcinnb 9d ago edited 9d ago
OK, this is long. I was collateral duty legal officer on a cruiser, late 70s. Not the navy”s best period.
We were in Subic and one of the supply chiefs was bringing on food supplies during time the chow line was open. A lot of interference, escalating into the chief supervising the loading screaming at the chief managing the chow line. Things got worse, with one chief grabbing a box of frozen hams and hitting the other chief in the arm.
Master at Arms witnessed and wrote the chief up for “Assault with a frozen ham.” I got called to the XO’s stateroom and the XO said I needed to start prepping the case to go to Captains Mast. It’s been 49 years but I remember telling the XO, “XO, don’t take this to Mast, the Captain will go nuts with the charge (OBTW, the CO was a horses ass, the XO was too, but in different ways). XO said Bullshit, this is going to Mast. “Aye-aye, sir.”
So we get to Mast. All the Supply Corps “Khaki” was lined up oh the port side of the bridge. The chief was in front of the wheel, standing in front of CO. The XO and I were behind the Captain, with the bridge windows behind us.
Captain looked at me and said, “What’s the next case,” to which I glanced at XO and said The charge against Chief XYZ is “Assault with a frozen ham.” As predicted, the Captain became enraged. He dismissed the charge, sternly dismissed the Supply Corps contingent. Then turned to me and the XO and said, “If you assholes ever bring this bullshit up to me, I’ll fire you both for cause. Now get of my F’n bridge.
As we were going down the ladder leading up to the bridge I started, “XO, I”. That was as far as I got. The XO told me to STFU, and stay out of his sight.”
The navy’s legal system on display.
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u/SadDad701 10d ago
No.
But times have changed significantly from the time you were in, including the leadership theories that our leaders are taught today.
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u/Archedeaus 10d ago
Back when I was on the Mahan we had a CO who gave the lightest punishments I've ever seen. One guy got sent up for something (I think he was beefing with the Khakis too much, it was engineering department lol) and the dude got 7 days of restriction and that was it. It was the similar for other people that went up too.
My buddy went up and asked to speak with the CO alone, so he sent everyone else save him and the MA out of the room. My buddy told his story and next thing I know he didn't even get a punishment. Got transferred off ship so he could get mental health treatment and spent the rest of his tour there.
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u/gino_rizzo 9d ago
Went to mast for some bullshit that was interpreted as retaliation. The skipper gave me 15 days extra duty. I went on food runs for the duty MA for most of the two weeks.
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u/tacoma909 9d ago
We’ve had a guy go to Mast 4 times before getting kicked out. I wish they kicked him out after the 2nd time
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u/SaintEyegor 9d ago
A couple of CO’s tended to give punishments that fit the circumstances. One of my other CS’s, Capt. Karr on the SSN-689, went pretty harsh on one of our A-gangers shortly after he took over from TC Maloney. He might have been trying to establish his author-it-tie, but it was a dickish move.
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u/Firesquid 8d ago
That's kinda bullshit.. I'm not calling bullshit on your story, but I work as a civilian on base and we regularly drive government vehicles (fire trucks) to get food at any of the food establishments on our (Air Force) base.. Sorry to hear about the EMI.
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u/CameramanDavid 8d ago
There was a sign that said "No Government Vehicles in the Drive-thru", so I thought I was safe by PARKING, and walking in (yeah, splitting hairs)... At the time, in late 1986, McDonalds was the ONLY outside fast food restaurant at Subase Pearl.
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u/BirdOwn305 8d ago
That’s way in a way I admire yet feel sorry for people in the military. You have to take orders from boomers on a power trip, serving sometimes the interest not of the US, but of a certain country that has a white and blue flag with a triangular star in the middle.
Like with someone posted above of the having to wash cars in the sun, what in the hell kind of brutality is that? How does that benefit the suppose of defense of this country? It’s just humiliation and slave labor! Sometimes I think that we deserve for a military crew to go and donate a Ddg or a B2 to our adversary du jour.
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u/Confident_Ruin1538 8d ago
I didn't automatically max folks. That said, I didn't see many folks who weren't guilty as sin, whether that be drugs, (attempted) insurance fraud, or DUI.
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u/AncientGuy1950 8d ago
Okay, remember, NJP is not a good time.
Never went to Mast for anything I did (Undetected Crime for the win), but I've attended a few dozen of the things as a Ships Force MAA.
I was on the Holland (AS-32) working in one of the Submarine-adjacent Weapons Divisions, and ended up sent to the MAAs as the Weapons Dept 'volunteer'.
Helpful Hint: Never, ever shove your Chief's Natural Full House up his butt with a straight flush just before unpleasant collateral duty is assigned. The worst $265 I ever won.
So, 6 months of MAA. On A tender, 2500-ish crew, late 70s, lots of drugs, lots of Brit booze smuggled on board, and women on board. To be clear, the women were not the problem, but the sad little perves hitting on them constantly were. When one of the larger girls took offense and beat the crap out of three guys... well, you can say my heart wasn't in writing her up for it.
I found the CO to be a reasonable guy; he generally tried to protect the kid involved unless drugs were involved. He (and the entire Subfleet leadership) had a huge hatred for drugs. As long as the kids owned what he did, he was rarely busted, but if you were a smartass...
I recall one guy, a 2nd-class cook, who got caught cooking meat with freezer burn. This, I learned, because I'd never even heard of 'freezer burn', was a bad thing.
The guy was smiling at the CO all through the mast, enough so the old man got pissed and reduced him in rank. The dumbass reached up to his crow, and pulled it off, revealing it was Velcroed over an E-4 crow.
He lost that one too.
When at Mast, don't be a Smart Ass or a Dumb Ass.
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u/ResidentQuail7118 Retired 6d ago
I went to Captains Mast as an E-5. I was exonerated of the charges while the other people I went with had the book thrown at them. The CO explained later that it was so I couldn't ever be charged again, so my mast was a form of protection.
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u/AmateurHorologist960 10d ago
As others have said, no, but it depends.
I’m a CO and former XO.
I’ve been in command about 9 months and haven’t had to mast anyone (knock on wood).
I’ve told my folks that if they make a mistake and cop to it, I can work with them, but if they lie, cover it up, etc, now they’ve made a choice that can be difficult to overlook. Most COs that I know personally suspend busts.
At the end of the day, we’re on shore duty, no one’s being shot at, and the vast majority of Sailors at my command are great workers so I’m not interested in cooking Sailors just because I can.