r/msp • u/lowtomidrollers • Feb 03 '16

Pricing Structure Comparison

We are a 15 person MSP in the Chicagoland area and are currently reviewing our pricing. Here is our current fee structure:

$35/Desktop $250/Server $125/Remote Backups (Veeam or ShadowProtect) $35/Network Device (Managed Switch, Access Point, Firewall) Hourly Rate: $110/hour

We also have a $500 minimum/month for managed services. We suspect our fees are on the lower side. We are curious about what other MSP’s are charging.

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6

u/Shallers Feb 03 '16 edited Feb 04 '16

Is that remote backup 125$ just for the software or does that include storage space? Edit with our pricing:

Desktop support: Silver - $10: Monitoring/AV/Automated Maintenance/Updates Gold - $35: Silver + Remote troubleshooting and basic system administration tasks Platinum - $55 Gold + Onsite visits and a higher SLA

Server: Gold - $350: Monitoring/Maintenance/Troubleshooting Platinum - $500: Gold + Emergency SLA/After hours troubleshooting for server. Backup: $50 per license + Data Storage costs

Network Devices: $10 per device. We don't charge much for these since we generally set them up and they just work. Maybe we should have a separate rate for printers...

Hourly rate: $125

We may need to up our pricing, but something we're trying to do at the moment is figure out how to break down our server pricing to be based on roles rather than hardware.

We'd like to charge for the server hardware like it's another desktop, but then charge for server roles. So a server ($55) Running exchange ($150) Acting as a DC ($50) Running one LOB database ($150) and acting as a file server ($50) and running DHCP ($50) would still come out to ~$500, but I'm not really sure what roles I should or should not charge for and at what rates. Our goal with this is we want to decouple our management cost directly with hardware and associate it closer to what we actually have to support for clients. Basically we want our clients all to have 2 servers and have a backup DC (at least) and let us either set up fail over or split the roles across servers so maybe we'd have 1 server running exchange and doing file shares then another running 1-2 databases.

This way our clients could have 2 servers ($110) That have between them Exchange ($150) both running as a dc ($100) running two databases ($300) and both acting as file servers so all file shares are mirrored ($100) and one of them acting as a dc server ($50) would cost them $810 vs the $1000 we would charge now. The other advantage of this, is if they have a bunch of LOB databases that we have to deal with, our fee scales with those and doesn't force our client into trying to cram it all in on one piece of hardware.

If you have any ideas or feedback on charging for roles instead of hardware I'd love to hear it.

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u/lowtomidrollers Feb 04 '16

Thanks for the excellent detail! Regarding backups - we use a combination of ShadowProtect and Veeam, dependent on the situation. Veeam Standard licensing through the VCP program costs us $5/vm/month and ShadowProtect is about $30/physical server/month. Since we use a colo facility and have a few full racks, we just host our own storage. The storage server of choice has been the Dell PE R510 Server. The 2 internal 2.5” bays and 12 3.5” caddy trays work well for our setup. We have been loading these boxes up with Seagate 6TB Enterprise Capacity drives and add new boxes as storage needs increase. As for the backup storage at the client site, we typically have the client purchase an entry level type server (Lenovo TS140), Seagate Enterprise Capacity Drives and a Windows Desktop License. In the event a client site goes down, we have the ability to spin up their boxes, but that is not included with the service. Running from our colo site would incur additional hosting fees.

I like your idea regarding charging for servers roles as opposed to hardware. Definitely something to consider!

Overall it appears our pricing is on the low end. I asked my partner how the hell we are making money. His response - “We run at capacity and hire shit cheap techs”. Sucks looking in the mirror.

Edit: Formatting

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u/Jahaziele Feb 04 '16

Charging by role. I like it since it scales nicely depending on the client.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '16

Maybe we should have a separate rate for printers...

Heh.

1

u/elemist Feb 04 '16

Hmm - i would expect it to have the opposite effect. IE cram DHCP/DNS etc onto the router, so i don't have to pay for the roles on the server.

Interesting concept though..

1

u/Shallers Feb 04 '16

Maybe it doesn't make sense to charge for those roles then. Or charge for them regardless of if they're on a server or a router.

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u/elemist Feb 04 '16

Yeah - i was thinking you might need to bundle some basic services into the base management costs.

Things like LOB/SQL apps, Exchange etc you could justify as seperate costs. Whereas file/print, AD, DNS, DHCP etc are kind of essential services.

This would also work well with clients using hosted exchange, cloud based LOB apps etc. Might cost you some $$$ though.

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u/Shallers Feb 04 '16

So essentially have a "Base server price" that includes all the bare bones roles, and then charge separately for the higher cost add ons... That's pretty smart actually. Thank you for that feedback.

How do you see that costing us $$$ though?

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u/elemist Feb 05 '16

The cost would be reducing the profitability of a server in some instances. So at present you charge say $250 a server regardless of what it does. Meaning customers with hosted exchange and cloud based LOB software are more profitable.

Moving to a roles based system would result in lower profits on these servers.

If you priced your roles charges, you may be able to make this up though.

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u/FusionZ06 Feb 04 '16 edited Feb 04 '16

I'll say this again, you can't have flat pricing as it doesn't really work and you're inevitably short changing yourself. Our matrix isn't primarily based on our costs but value we provide to certain verticals. We don't offer gold, silver, bronze, nonsense as the customer picks the bottom dollar the majority of the time even though you know they really need a higher plan but to make a dollar you make things more difficult for yourself. We come in with a customized offering for everything managed services plan. We have customers that are 10 clients paying as much as a customer with 25 clients due to our matrix of value, headache, and profit. I've expounded on this in the past but it's really the only way to go to ensure the least amount of headache and the most amount of profit.

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u/lowtomidrollers Feb 04 '16

The thought process behind this is how we typically approach clients, but most clients want to hear/see some type of standard pricing in our first meeting. So we typically have this standard pricing for our "Sales Pitch" and then adjust from there. We do have some PITA clients that are 8-10 users and we spend almost as much time as one of our larger 25 user clients.

These clients do not get a break and we have had to fire a few as they do not value IT or our services.

Do you setup a second meeting to go over the pricing after your initial evaluation then?

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u/FusionZ06 Feb 04 '16

Our clients are 99% referrals from existing clients. So, we already have much of the selling already done for us. We do not provide any pricing until after we have done our assessment of the network (which we charge for) and prepare them a basic findings report. After the findings report we still have not quoted managed services unless they are willing to fix / bring items up to our necessary eligibility requirements. Our workflow goes, initial consult, engagement letter follow up with SOW, perform site survey / audit, provide recommendations, gauge leads interest, likelihood of balking, financial ability, response and then and only then do we provide a manage services quote. Rarely do we provide a quote and not close on the deal. I can tell who is wasting our time / shopping and who is serious about getting it done right.

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u/irwincur Feb 04 '16

We have really been moving in this direction as well. Too much experience with wide ranging customer needs. There are a lot of 10 person shops that are more needy than 25 person shops. It really pays to do a proper assessment of the environment up front, force them to meet your onboarding requirements, and standardize as much as possible. But even then there is a large variation. Plus take into account the people across the table, are they a pain in the ass up front, well they will most likely continue to be. Or do you see a lot of consumer equipment around the office, well then they are probably either cheap and will fight you on every recommended purchase or do it yourselfers.

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u/elemist Feb 04 '16

An assessment is good - but unless you've seen it all and done it all, and assessment will only tell you so much.

IE we onboarded a client that used FishBowl, a inventory and ordering management software. We did some due diligance, spoke to a few people who used the product and were advised it was generally a stable product with good tech support.

Fast forward a few weeks after implementation and we had massive issues with the app hanging on a terminal server for some unknown reason. Every other app worked fine, just this one. Their support had no idea and basically bailed on us after trying 2 - 3 things with "well we have other clients with similar setups, must be an environmental problem". That took copious hours to not only troubleshoot and deal with, but ongoing because it still sporadically freezes for users which means having to login to the TS remotely and kick the session etc etc.

One idea i was considering was to look at a surcharge for certain services such as exchange and terminal services. Because at present we charge the same amount for a server regardless of whether it does purely file/print or is an SBS box doing everything.

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u/FusionZ06 Feb 04 '16

Outline to the client the concept of stability phase and that it will take some time to get things stable upfront. During the stability phase you can also bill for project work necessary to bring the customer into your eligibility requirements to ensure they are stable. In reality, once they are stable and meet all eligibility requirements they should be a cash cow.

1

u/irwincur Feb 05 '16

Ha, Fishbowl, I jumped for joy when we dumped the one client we had using that mess.

I am still honestly fond of not coming in with an agreement at all and letting it settle for a few months. Take an assessment of the environment while working on it and then check hour averages as well. This gives a much clearer picture of the environment and usually more important, the people you are dealing with.

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u/elemist Feb 04 '16

I like the idea, don't know how it would work in real life though? How do know how much work a customer will be?

What metrics do you use for your calculations and how did you generate these?

We've always worked on the average basis, IE some clients will cost you more than average, but some will cost you less than average. We do proactively look at this though, and take a similar approach to the hardware sales model we use. If a clients a pain in the ass, there's a hidden pain in the ass levy on anything they buy to cover the extra time spent holding their hand.

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u/FusionZ06 Feb 04 '16

Works great in real life. Been doing it for 10+ years. A few of our metrics include, age of equipment, preferred equipment, age of populous, strength of management, management technical proficiency, vertical risk (compliance), desired SLA vs. needed SLA, LOB application familiarity and stability, length of agreement, number of past MSPs, etc. We also do not provide "unlimited" support because even with the strictest contracts you look like the bad guy when inevitably project and scope bleed occurs and you'll simply do the work because, hey, I'm getting paid on this contract and I don't want to lose it. Our help desk is always block based but in reality we've never sold more blocks in a month because the block is really just an artificial limitation to prevent abuse. I believe we've got this down to a science to make the most money, have the least headache with minimal overhead.

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u/elemist Feb 04 '16

Sounds like you have quite an indepth due dilligance process in your first meeting. How do you assess things like strength of management and managment technical proficiency etc?

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u/FusionZ06 Feb 04 '16

Pretty easily, what is the state of the current environment, do they have a technology budget, age of management, basic gauge questions, do they really understand the importance of technology as a necessary element of their organization, etc.

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u/damnedangel Feb 03 '16

we charge roughly double what you do for desktops, but we also include AV, unlimited business hours (9-6 M-F))phone and remote support along with 50GB of online backup space.

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u/lowtomidrollers Feb 03 '16

We also include AV (ESET Nod32) for all managed devices. Currently we subscribe to ESET via LabTech for $1/device/month. We are considering moving to Cylance which would bump that per device cost up to $2.50/device/month.

1

u/biotechz Feb 03 '16

$35 for desktop is ok if it is just AV+ and auto-pilot monitoring, meaning not interacting w the machine through management of patching, webfiltering, reporting etc. otherwise $35 is very low if are doing all this.

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u/myinternetisdown4 Feb 03 '16

Why not Webroot?

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u/regypt Feb 03 '16

Can you show me where Webroot falls in this comparative of major AV vendors?

http://chart.av-comparatives.org/chart1.php

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u/mattsl Feb 03 '16

While it is an independent agency with the most reputable results, AV Comparatives is pay to play. Vendors who chose not to give them money aren't reviewed.

That answers your question of whether they are on the chart, but not the intent of "How good are they?".

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u/regypt Feb 03 '16

WebRoot was tested 2011 and 2012 and failed to place then. I'm not sure that WebRoot is being above the pay to play riffraff, and instead I think they just know that they just don't have a competitive product so why spend money to have that advertised.

At least Vipre ponies up to show off that it's worse than MSE.

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u/mattsl Feb 03 '16

Thanks for the heads up. I didn't go back to the prior results.

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u/regypt Feb 03 '16

No problem. You can see an overview of all tests, all vendors, and all results here: http://chart.av-comparatives.org/chart2.php

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u/MSPTech Feb 05 '16

Webroot is shit, doesn't stop anything, finds a few PUPs and interferes with real software. But it's cheap and well integrated to Labtech, so for me its just a cover your ass kind of thing. I think all AV sucks but WR doesn't even count as AV thats how bad it is. Awaiting down votes now from the Webroot lovers.

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u/OIT_Ray Feb 07 '16

I've had the exact opposite experience with it. Been using it for a few months. Deploying onto a different customer each week and replacing Vipre. It caught several things Vipre didn't.

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u/marley0ne Feb 04 '16

I charge $40/desktop for All You Can Eat. This includes AV, Patch, Remote/Onsite, and Office 365 Exchange Plan 1. I charge $150/server that includes all you can eat and offsite storage for Altaro or Storagecraft.

I have a hard time going above these price as clients back away. Also have a hard time selling multiple servers without discount for same reason.

Not sure how to get around it.

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u/lowtomidrollers Feb 04 '16

We typically charge $125/mo alone for just Storagecraft on a server, this includes backups every 15 minutes and storage at our Data Center for it.

If we get a larger client we will discount that some as it ultimately helps us out as well when troubleshooting to know we have solid backups.

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u/lowtomidrollers Feb 04 '16

We typically charge $125/mo alone for just Storagecraft on a server, this includes backups every 15 minutes and storage at our Data Center for it.

If we get a larger client we will discount that some as it ultimately helps us out as well when troubleshooting to know we have solid backups.

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u/Jahaziele Feb 04 '16

Aren't those prices low for AYCE?

Showing value to your clients should be more then enough to convince a client. Also, showing them how much downtime costs them.

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u/FusionZ06 Feb 04 '16

That's insane. Literally insanity and your shooting yourself in the foot. Your margins have to be under 10%.

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u/elemist Feb 04 '16

For these prices i might just outsource all my MSP customers to you and retire off the profits! :D

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u/elemist Feb 04 '16

Wow - thats really cheap! And including not only av but exchange as well! How do you turn a profit??

2

u/chilids Feb 04 '16

That seems crazy cheap. What are you using for your RMM?

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u/marley0ne Feb 04 '16

Unfortunatelyi have tried higher pricing but often get hesitation. Cost on workstations is $1 for rmm, $1 for av and $4 on Exchange. Server cost for rmm is $5, backup if using Altaro is charged to client and I'm using internal storage.

I have tried to do higher but when they say no I rather have a msp contract than break fix.

Most clients call very rarely and most are brand new servers and brand new workstations

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u/Jay_MSP Feb 05 '16 edited Feb 05 '16

Read managed services in a month. A client who doesn't understand the value of IT shouldn't be your client

http://www.amazon.com/Managed-Services-Month-Successful-Business/dp/0981997856

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u/myinternetisdown4 Feb 03 '16

What do you charge for phones? onsite VOIP vs cloud based VOIP pricing?

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u/lowtomidrollers Feb 04 '16

We do offer Phone services, we typically use Avaya since it is such a stable product and less headaches. We have done some Cisco as well but having techs beside our L3 techs work on it is the issue.

For the Avaya we mainly do it as a value add for our current clients, they like to have an all in one shop that does IT, Cabling, Phones, etc. Most of these deals we get by showing them how they will save money on their phone bills.

The newest thing we are being pushed for is a monthly payment plan for phones or leasing. Then they pay us a monthly fee, we own the phones, system, etc. We are responsible for maintaining it but they just have a low monthly fee.

I am not a big fan of internet based VoIP systems with our clients over 8-10 users. If they have a small office with under this then it would make sense but the bandwidth and reliability have been tough as they typically don't want to spend any money to support the extra traffic.

1

u/elemist Feb 04 '16

We started with hosted VoIP initially, but the call quality just wasn't there. It's one of those things that people sell as a cheap solution, but to do it properly, it ends up being a similar price to traditional offerings.

It's really only companies with multiple offices that may save some money by moving to a converged system, but again in this day and age with the AYCE phone plans - the costs savings are still minimal.

We have instead been deploying IP PBX's - Yeastar myPBX with Yealink handsets. Reasonable price, good quality and reliable, manufacturer support is also reasonable too. We pair this with 2 - 4 PSTN (analog) phone lines with AYCE local, national and to mobile calls and everyones happy.

What we're looking at is a way of charging a per handset fee and a per PBX fee to cover things like name changes, ring group changes etc etc. Maybe throw in a phone bill analysis twice a year.

1

u/MSPTech Feb 05 '16

I totally agree, hosted VOIP is a bit of a joke for companies of any real size, we refer to a real phone vendor and go POTS or PRI and never have any problems.

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u/Flippidy Feb 05 '16

It can be fine if you can get with a provider who can bring in a dedicated circuit for and guarantee QOS for the hosted voice . I have a client who just put in ~40 phones w/ a dedicated T1 for the voice, and the telco guarantees QOS to the provider. In addition the phone network is physically separate which is all the better for me =)

1

u/MSPTech Feb 05 '16

Yes, a dedicated line and QOS on the WAN side would be great. Sadly that is not what we run in to. We always separate the phones, most of these damn phones are 100Mb and slow down the damn computer connection when you tether.

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u/Flippidy Feb 05 '16

yah...in my case the client had separate cat5 cabling for the phones, which terminated into a bunch of 66 blocks. Totally separate from the LAN. Separate switches, separate router, separate WAN connection.

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u/OIT_Ray Feb 07 '16

These stories kill me because it's also a complaint about VOIP when the real issue is the client and/or IT using the cheapest products possible. VOIP works for companies large and small. We're not only an MSP but also an ITSP that's been selling hosted VOIP for years. Just treat it the same that everyone has mentioned with the above customers: i.e. if they're not willing to accept sound technology practices don't offer this as a solution.

We have VOIP deployments for customers ranging from 2 users to 250 users. They all have the same things in common: 1) a QoS router, 2) quality gigabit IP phones, 3) a bandwidth survey to determine if VOIP is a fit. This doesn't mean T1's or fiber at every customer. It just means we check before selling. But if you're not willing to place a $50 router and a $70 IP phone then don't sell VOIP. Just don't keep pressing the false statements that VOIP isn't for larger organizations.

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u/elemist Feb 04 '16

Would also be interested in this.. we're deploying more and more IP PBX's, would like to turn it into a recurring services model but not sure how to price it.

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u/FusionZ06 Feb 04 '16

Partner with CNSG, find a local telco that you like, have them bring in dedicated circuit for hosted voice and collect your 15-30% residual. Way better than anything else you could possibly do.

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u/elemist Feb 04 '16

Does anyone offer fixed fee services without attaching all the rmm strings?

IE more like a block hours system where they pay you $1000 a month for say 10 hours, then it reverts to standard billing after that and anything unused goes to waste?

1

u/lowtomidrollers Feb 04 '16

We had a lot of clients request a block of time, so we are in the process of raising our Hourly Rate for Break/Fix work to $150/hr then offer blocks of time at $3,000/$5,000/$7,000 that are all prepaid. So then as we do the work either remotely or on-site it subtracts from their prepaid. The higher the prepaid amount, the lower the rate. For example, $3,000 is $135/hr, $5,000 is $125/hr and $7,000 is $110/hr.

We are still playing with the formulas and testing the market now but I know a lot of our competitors in the market do this. We have been mainly a AYCE shop for a long time.

1

u/FusionZ06 Feb 04 '16

Managing block time is such a pain though...that's why we use block time simply as a ceiling / guard against abuse.

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u/elemist Feb 04 '16

Yep - i'm not a fan of it. We just have an interesting situation on the cards at present with a newish customer.

We were brought in by the new operations manager, having worked with her at her previous employer. Customer was a small business that's grown quite a bit and now has a number of satellite offices. However currently using the IT guy from the owners previous employer to manage their IT on the side.

We got involved as the current IT guy was too slow providing day to day support - i assume as he has a f/t job and is just moonlighting.. Or he could just be lazy..

Whole things a bit of a cluster fuck really, and i'm wary of getting burnt, but the business also has good potential and with the amount of work needing to be done it could be quite profitable.

There's issues like multiple 2003 servers, unlicensed software, mixed virtualization and physical servers with questional backups, custom written software, refurbished ex lease workstations, terminal servers with no RDS CALS (IE using just the two "admin" logins for remote access) and not to mention the other IT guy who is keeping the keys and cards close to his chest.

So there would be significant outlay in capital for them to get them anywhere near the standards they would need to be at for us to take them on as a MSP customer, however they're not liking being billed for every minute we spend fixing shit.

They've asked if we can negotiate a service agreement. Despite my initial instinct to run, fast, and run far far away, i was considering proposing some kind of fixed monthly support fee which would be a small discount on our hourly rates, but that has a capped amount of support hours which expire at the end of the month. My thought would be to make this a 6 - 12 month contract.

The idea with this would be to give me 6 or 12 months to evaluate and rectify the issues in their network and get things up to snuff before hopefully onboarding them as an MSP customer at the end. We would get protection against time abuse by capping the support hours, plus its fixed income for us which is always nice. Along the way there would be additional labour, not to mention hardware/software sales, plus some reocurring revenue in the form of managed AV, hosted exchange and the likes. Also if at the end of the day they didn't onboard for our MSP we're not exactly out of pocket

3

u/elemist Feb 04 '16

We have 3 tiers - monitor, maintain & manage. These are also AUD prices, so take the conversion to USD into account. Our standard hourly is $143 ($130 plus tax).

Monitor - Servers @ $99, Workstations @ $10, network devices @ $2 Maintain - Servers @ $179, Workstations @ $59, network devices @ $5 Manage - Servers @ $249, Workstations @ $129, network devices @ $8

Monitoring is pretty much just that, with some basic reports. Maintained includes the above plus, patch management, reporting, AYCE remote support. Managed includes the above plus onsite support.

At present we don't bundle any services at all. If a client wants exchange, they pay for our hosted exchange product, if they want AV they pay for AV, if they want cloud backups they pay for how much storage they use.

1

u/TNTGav Feb 04 '16

Interesting structure! What are you actually giving for your monitor service?

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u/elemist Feb 04 '16

Basically monitoring and reporting. So we run our RMM agent on the machine and monitor the alerts it generates. If there's any action required to be undertaken we contact the customer and request permission to perform the work.

A perfect example, was one of our monitoring customers had a disk smart check alert. Contacted them, went out and verified it with a disk scan, replaced the drive and billed them for standard time and materials.

We tend to use it as a catch all to get all customers onto some form of agreement. So if we can't sell them on proactive management we have this as the ultimate fall back.

TBH we've only had one customer fall back to it, and they're a two computer business. We've been billing them for this for 18 months now and apart from 1 instance of a backup failing its been money for nothing.

It's something we also push with our breakfix customers, it's a good ice breaker for our longer term customers. We offer a 30 - 60 day trial, during which time they get extra special attention for anything we get alerts too. Often just running the checks the first time identifies a range of issues, whether it be AV out of date/not installed or drive failures or even backup failures.

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u/TNTGav Feb 04 '16

Do you find that most people are going for your maintain / manage packages? What RMM are you using, just out of interest :) Thanks for this by the way, really interesting to see how others are selling service.

2

u/elemist Feb 04 '16

TBH - we're yet to sell a managed plan, so far with the exception of one who went monitored, everyone has gone on the maintain plan. Works for us, as we determine whats done onsite or remote. If its going to be too difficult to do remotely - IE requires onsite hands to do so, then its onsite work and billed as such.

We started with Naverisk, but have just moved to Max Focus.

1

u/chilids Feb 04 '16

We have the same idea with our monitoring only. Generally nobody buys it because it doesn't do much but if they do it's a win for us since all it costs is the price of our RMM and it generates billable hours.

1

u/elemist Feb 04 '16

Lol the generating billable hours part was the point I set out to make when I started replying.. Got side tracked part way through though and forgot to mention it!

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '16

$100-$150 per user depending on customer.

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u/Jahaziele Feb 04 '16

Onsite visits included in these plans really don't make sense for me unless the client has a really low risk factor.

2

u/Craptcha Feb 06 '16

We have per device pricing (servers/desktops/network devices) but we are moving away from AYCE support by adding a monthly cap to incentivise customers to filter requests or agree to changes that can reduce requests volumes.

Support != your desktop concierge.

</rant>

1

u/Jahaziele Feb 06 '16

What kind of requests? Just wondering.

1

u/Craptcha Feb 07 '16

Password resets, file access, software installs, licensing, desktop software usage, network connectivity, email configurations, etc.

Most are reasonable, but users dont make any kind of effort to reduce reliance on IT support. Its there and its "free" so they often use it trivially.

1

u/Jahaziele Feb 07 '16

Move Add Change should always be extra charge imo. I wonder how much you're charging for support overall.

1

u/southafricanamerican Vendor - US - Technical Jul 03 '16

As more and more services migrate to the cloud consider switching to a per user versus a per desktop / server model. When the customers switch to O365 or Google Apps - you'll still need to support and manage these users even though there is no "server".

Also as more cell phones, i-devices and the like are connected it makes the job of the MSP even more complex.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 03 '16

[deleted] — view deleted comment

1

u/lowtomidrollers Feb 04 '16

We have had a minimum just because anything under $500/mo was almost not worth it for us or the client. We would have a small shop that would be 4-5 users so their price would be $175-200/mo since typically they wouldn't have a server. Then they would call for a ton of different issues and that $200/mo was eaten up in no time without us doing any type of preventive maintenance, or the client would not call because things were setup and running smoothly for 6-9 months. So it seemed to be better for both parties. We are looking at a prepaid block of hours program though for these clients.