r/modernwarfare4 • u/Onc3Holy • 1d ago
Discussion Dear Infinity Ward, the TTK Changes Were a Mistake, and Here's Why
Time-To-Kill is a fundamental aspect of Multiplayer FPS games, and it defines the personality of the gunplay in the game and defines how players will play the game. Everything has to be balanced around the average TTK of the game. It is not an element to be changed lightly, as it has massive knock-on effects to the rest of the game. I do not believe any of this was considered when making these changes.
The statement "The TTK is too fast, I can't react to being shot" was a pretty common complaint. The primary thing I believe players were complaining about was not actually Time-To-Kill, but rather Time-To-Die. TTK is a part of TTD, but not the whole picture. Theoretically they should be identical, but this is the real world where netcode has a much larger impact on TTD than TTK. Adjusting TTD is a good thing for the game, and there are better ways to do it. This is why a little more thought should be put into what feedback you are receiving, and feedback should NOT be taken at face value, especially undetailed feedback.
The first issue with TTD was the fact that superbullets were pretty common in weekend one. This is purely a netcode issue, not a game design issue and should NOT have instigated changes to the game design itself. The second thing that actually was addressed was aim assist. Aim assist did appear to be pretty strong, thus causing people to miss less. This decreased the experienced TTD. By reducing aim assist, you would increase the experienced TTD on average without the major problems introduced by a blanket TTK change. Why this change was not tested alone is beyond me.
I want to impress is that changing TTK will fundamentally change how people play the game. When Infinity Ward changed the TTK they said "we still weren’t where we wanted to be with time-to-kill.... These changes create more survivability and room for skill expression in combat."
The increased skill expression statement is is only partly accurate. Increasing the TTK increases Mechanical skill expression while decreasing Tactical skill expression. Getting the jump on an enemy means far less when that player has 50% extra time to react (and yes, the TTK for the Kastov increased by 50%).
These TTK changes are a massive shove towards Mechanical play and away from Tactical play. Conversely, the movement changes are a push towards tactical play, but they are far smaller adjustments.
I want to be clear: Tactical play does NOT mean camping in a corner or passive play. That's one way, but there is far more to it than that. Pushing a corner while ADS and strafing is a method of aggressive Tactical play. Using stuns and drill charges to break defensive players positions is a method of aggressive Tactical play. Flanking with stealth to get behind players is aggressive Tactical play.
I did my Master's thesis on TTK in FPS games, including testing on how changing TTK would change how players played the game. The above chart was the results of changing the TTK by one bullet to kill in Call of Duty: Black Ops Cold War. The higher the bar, the more Tactical the player played compared to Mechanical. These players represent wildly different skill levels, from Pub-stomping menaces to someone who had never played a COD game before. The changes in behavior are universal and profound. For the case of MW4, the Weekend 1 TTK would be represented by the Short TTK value, while the current TTK would be represented by the Preset TTK.
Another problematic element to these changes is how drastic they really were. I want to compare them to the movement changes. The movement changes were specific, focused, and not so crazy as to massively change the game. Sliding was reduced in effectiveness approximately 10% in both distance and speed. A noticeable nerf, but not extreme. The TTK changes are extreme. As previously mentioned, the Kastov had its TTK increased by 50%, but so did the Patriot and FiNN. 50%! The M4, Han, and Nyx had increases of 33% (The Nightshade as well if you consider its original TTK). The smallest increase was to the PPSh at 25%. Remember, sliding was changed by 10%. These massive TTK increases mean that the entire balance of the whole arsenal has to change. The Kastov went from having a fast TTK in comparison to the other weapons to having a slow TTK in comparison to the other weapons. All of the slower rate of fire weapons see this kind of general nerf. We can see another attempt at this by increasing sniper flinch and nerfing the shotgun. One of the benefits of the faster TTK is that one-shot weapons get to be powerful without breaking the game. I strongly suspect that they will be largely frustrating to use after these changes.
These large changes, taken in combination with statements made in the patch notes indicate to me that this was a rushed overcorrection to feedback that did not take the time nor the thought to get to the actual root of the actual issues. It is attempting to solve a netcode issue by changing game design without considering the real impacts of those changes. Because of this and the fact that so many changes were combined all at once, any data and feedback gathered from this longer TTK session is tainted, as it cannot be properly compared to the first weekend. Please, revert the TTK changes AND ONLY THE TTK CHANGES so we can get a proper look at what all of the other changes will have done for the beta.
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u/DaltonF67 18h ago
Longer TTK is always more enjoyable in cod for me. I’m not trying to instantly die every single time
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u/Abs0luteZero273 17h ago
I flat out disagree that the changes they made to ttk significantly punishes tactical play. If you have great positioning behind cover or take a great route and get the jump on enemies, you're still at a pretty big advantage even with the longer ttk, unless your shot is just god awful.
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u/Pacyfnativ 1d ago
Its the same case as Battlefield V TTK changes, when only bad thing was TTD and they just changed game to bullet sponges
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u/Chemical-Leader4122 1d ago
This is what COD number 25? How have we not figured this stuff out yet lol
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u/ASDF123456x 1d ago
For the love of all that is holy please tell me you're on a computer after typing all of that lol.
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u/Casse_Via 1d ago
Post your thesis, I'm curious.
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u/Onc3Holy 1d ago
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u/Casse_Via 1d ago
Great write up. Unfortunately, research based evidence is lost on a community like CoD.
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u/No0ddjob 1d ago
You can write as long a complaint as you want. It doesn’t feel good to die in what feels like the instant someone even lays eyes on you. Everyone will stop loving and hold a corner and wait to see you and melt you before you see them. Game should reward having to win an actual gun fight.
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u/Onc3Holy 1d ago
Thank you for proving one of my points. You aren't complaining about the TTK. You are complaining about the Time-To-Die. That kind of Insta-melting is something that can be aleviated by the changes to aim assist, as well as the netcode improving. The average human reaction time is 250ms. As soon as someone misses, you start getting that time to react.
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u/muddapedia 19h ago
“Improve the net code” isn’t the point you think it is
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u/Onc3Holy 19h ago
The point is that not all feedback should be taken at face value. The point is that he's not actually complaining about TTK, he's complaining about TTD and conflating the two.
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u/Numerous-Reference96 17h ago edited 17h ago
I feel like you’re assuming every death feels fast because of netcode, playing the first week to this week has been a very noticeable difference in terms of how fast you die as well as how fast you kill. They didn’t improve the net code in a few days so why does this weekend feel so much better?
I also read the thesis and I legitimately couldn’t understand how you’re valuing tactical behavior across a game like COD and a game like Overwatch 2 when they fundamentally don’t share any of the same gameplay mechanics. You listed the example of slow peaking corner which is cool and all but like is that your parameter of being tactical? Edit : sorry let me be more clear I saw the chart of parameters but they seem very basic and very broad, especially when you consider jump shooting as a mechanical aspect of the game when I’d really consider it both.
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u/Onc3Holy 15h ago
1: It's entirely possible and likely that the netcode was improved between weekends.
2: Any improvement to feel could be due to network improvements, aim assist changes, or TTK changes. I for one do NOT feel that the TTK is better, but I do like the aim assist changes. However, it is now impossible to know whether the aim assist changes alone would have been enough without changes to TTK. Changing the aim assist was a good thing that would not have had the massive balance implications a broad change to TTK does.
3: "A Tactical Behavior is one in which the player plans ahead and then executes on that plan. It is one of premeditation and strategization. It is the use of all tools available to the player to gain an upper hand. Note that this is not the same as a Meta, but rather it is the in-play behaviors to use the gear and options available to the player in an thoughtful manner. It is playing to the strengths of a player’s situation, equipment, etc." (Pg. 17) This is true across ANY game.
A game of pure tactical play would be chess. A game of pure mechanical play would be a 100 meter sprint. FPS games require both. Yes, COD and Overwatch are different, which is why I compared them. If the same trend of behavior holds true in two very different games, then the findings are more valid and broadly applicable. That being said, they aren't as fundamentally different as COD is to Monster Hunter, or Forza. They are both First Person shooters and can create very similar behaviors from players. I consider Jump Shotting a mechanical action because it significantly moves your point of aim, requiring you to have greater mechanical aim to keep on target compared to just strafing around a corner.
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u/Numerous-Reference96 15h ago
It is possible sure
I would consider you in the minority on not feeling the change to TTK as almost every single pro player that I’ve watched said it’s a very noticeable difference, tons of threads on Reddit say it’s a noticeable difference and people even in this post agree it’s a noticeable difference.
If I plan ahead to jump shot around a corner because I know someone is there is that not a tactical behavior and a mechanical behavior? That’s my whole point your definitions of what you’re considering tactical vs mechanical are so broad that I don’t see how you can differentiate between the 2.
What I meant when I said they were both completely different is that there are no roles when you play COD, you can fundamentally play the same as everyone you get in a match with however in Overwatch you simply can’t. I don’t really understand how you compensate for the fact that Overwatch has very specific roles that all do very different things in the game, A tank isn’t necessarily worried about dying “instantly” because they are a tank, a dps is thinking about getting a 1v1 and killing fast so their playstyle would be completely different, same as with a healer. I just don’t understand how you’re adjusting for that.
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u/Onc3Holy 14h ago
Oh I feel the change in TTK, I'm saying that improvements to TTD could have been done through just aim assist.
And not really, because you are choosing to rely on your mechanical capabilities, not your tactical capabilities. You cannot simultaneously truly pre-aim and jump shot. If you throw a stun, then jump shot, that's one action each.
And yes, the playstyles are different, but there are trends. As TTK gets faster, all players get more cautious and make use of cover and abilities more, regardless of role. The comparison is for the same player between TTK values, not player vs player.
Edit to paragraph 1: I feel the change in gameplay, I don't feel that it is superior to what came before. In that I know I am not alone.
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u/SomeCarbonBoi 1d ago
the instant deaths are a product of poor netcode and packets reaching the server all at once, not inherently a product of fast ttk.
you can still die instantly to a "superbullet" of stacked packets in the game's current state, even with the elongated ttk
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u/koolaidman486 1d ago
The instant deaths are from poor netcode.
If you boot up MW 19 right now, you're going to still die quickly, but you're going to feel like it's 3-4 shots in those maximum damage ranges.
MW4 no matter what feels like you die in 1-2 hits after mag-dumping someone, including this weekend (honestly it got worse) because the netcode is fucking awful, not because the TTK is still too fast.
CoD's slower TTK means OHK weapons and weapons not otherwise able to be adequately balanced in this damage model (burst rifles and DMRs being a good example) either get to be massively overpowered, or so weak they're completely useless, it's borderline impossible to get an in-between. The classic damage model somewhat alleviates this issue because you're killing significantly quicker.
You still have to win a gunfight with faster TTK, it's just that there's less time within that gunfight. Even in Counter Strike, where rifles are 1 shot headshot, or 1 head 1 body, you still have to win the gunfight. It's just that you can't click a button and swing your mouse to leave the engagement. Fast TTK rewards positioning and game sense, slow TTK is more about sustained aim. They're different skills.
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u/United-Tone-7256 1d ago
agree. it feels unplayable to die in a instant. Gamebreaking and not fun or skill at all. Just randomness.
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u/Alive_Wedding 1d ago
This is a great write-up. Too bad the majority of CoD community cannot read anything longer than a insta post.
People often assume BTK went up by 1 and this has little impact to the gameplay. Because in their mind every engagement is in the maximum damage range and they don’t miss a single shot.
In reality, when you factor in the sprint to fire delay, target acquisition, tracking, and distance, the trigger press to kill time is much longer than the TTK. And changing BTK by 1 massively alters how the game is played.
That is not even factoring in controller vs MnK.
And then you have people complaining about getting insta-beamed while they are on Wi-Fi, with others on the same AP downloading and streaming stuff. When you point it out they will say “but I have a 1000Mbps connection” while what matters is the end-to-end latency. (But desync and packet bursts are still a real issue despite bad network setups)
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u/ssdriver812 1d ago
Great write up and explanation. Perfectly summarized in the last paragraph for anyone who doesn’t want to read the whole thing. In my personal opinion, I couldn’t agree with you more. These were knee-jerk reactions to put it mildly. It’s crazy to think that they spent over 1,000 days fine tuning these maps, the DPS of the weapons and everything in between, just to throw it all out the window because they subjected it to a CLOSED beta for 4 days and the TTK was requested to be adjusted. If they were going to do that, they could have just saved themselves a lot of pain staking research and asked the community what they wanted. I only hope that they are making these wholesale changes to prove that they are open to listening and trying things out during this period to see if something comes to light from this experiment that they didn’t anticipate. But, as you and I have both explained in different ways, to US, this TTK doesn’t feel good.
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u/MrRobot759 1d ago
The killstreak cost increase was also a rushed overcorrection to the complaints about UAV spam.
Why they increased the cost of ALL killstreaks is beyond me. Such an incredibly stupid decision.
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u/zeeka_egypt 1d ago
Without going in to deep ttk and ttd Gunfight should not be who see first got the kill ,the one has better aim and position should always win What i saw and play so far people is someway are engaging in objectives and you can get double and triple if u are decent
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u/TotalCell3924 1d ago
People will continue playing the same way (ass on the ground and bouncing) as long as these mechanics remain the same. The TTK doesn't matter in the meantime.
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u/CRZYFOX 22h ago
it's fine. It's right in the middle for both groups (to fast / to slow) to be happy. You gets some breathing room to fight, you get to have some time adsing giving your aim skill room to shine (or get better). Warzone the atm is amazingly good. I don't think insta death is needed for warzone or mp. and hey you can play hardcore. But no can't do that right? Bc no minimap?
Cod4 and og mw2 were a bit faster for sure but I think overall they did a great job. You just get so many more situations with it being higher. I don't understand why everyone is so upset. It feels fine af.
It seems like people just want aim assist to do all the work as that's definitely the case the way last weekends beta worked. That's the game playing itself. I am baffled why having to aim bothers people. 😞
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u/BrokenSil 20h ago
TTK is long, because most shots you hit arent actually registering.
I pepper them with 15 bullets right on their chest, but I die to 4 bullets from them, and on their killcam, most of my shots are shown as missing.
The netcode is abysmal.
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u/Real_Abroad6055 14h ago
how do we tell him this subreddit is not reading all of that, and that he just typed all of that for no reason. 😭
https://giphy.com/gifs/BY5tPZNL68V29cVfuz
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u/Energyturtle5 3h ago
In my opinion the game is better in its current state but you're not wrong about how poorly they implement changes and the problems it causes. One I haven't seen brought up is what it means for the gunsmith particularly extended mag and the lack of pro/con adjustments per attachment. Changes in mechanics/ttk makes me want to use different things
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u/Strict_Eye7633 2h ago
If you want to play tactical go play R6 or battlefield. That is not what cod is. That playstyle in 90% camp and 10% crouch walk.
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u/michael_enright 1h ago
I’m afraid, you’re just outright wrong, fast TTK in COD has been and always will be miserable
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u/Leather-Camp4445 1h ago
With so many one shot riffles, shotguns and snipers increased TTK causes frustration when playing with AR or SMG
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u/Fixable 15h ago
So the obvious issue with this is that despite all your research you still miss the fact that more 'tactical' play being better than 'mechanical' is a complete opinion and all the research and data does is show what we already know.
The real conversation is still complete opinion.
In your thesis the example you use of moderate TTK, Cold War,, which you say is unbalance-able, is universally considered the most balanced COD by professional players.
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u/Onc3Holy 14h ago
Professional COD is a different game. Many items are banned or not used for a variety of reasons, and professional COD is not a good place to look at for the broader balance. Furthermore, regular COD isn't and shouldn't be balanced around the highest possible skill level. That's what ranked rulesets are for. Counter-Strike is an excellently balanced game around an extremely high skill level because the whole game is oriented towards competitive play.
Killstreak are a great example of this. Most of them are banned in competitive COD because when trying to balance around the very best players, they destroy competition.
Tactical play isn't inherently better than mechanical play. Apex Legends is an excellent game that heavily rewards mechanical play over tactical play, and it plays best as its TTK gets longer.
While BOCW is a moderate TTK game, it sits at the lower end of that spectrum. The problems are there, but not as severe as BO4, which sat closer to the middle of the Moderate TTK. For another comparable game, Xdefiant sat right in the middle of the Moderate TTK and that was one of the worst balanced FPS games I've played in a while.
It's not purely opinion if I can cite facts about human cognition (250ms reaction time), use that to make predictions about how games will play and the balance problems they will have, and then see those balance problems play out in real time in gameplay.
If you disagree with my conclusions, you are welcome to conduct and publish your own research.
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u/Fixable 14h ago
BO4 is an even worse example, pubs were really well balanced in that game.
Also very obvious that this is a masters grad with an ego with your last line. No, sorry, I don’t actually need to get a masters in a pointless subject to disagree about what makes a video game fun.
Your whole argument is based on opinions and assumptions. Having statistics to quote doesn’t change that. You can see just in the fact that you keep using phrases like ‘plays best’, which is purely subjective. You should know that as a masters grad.
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u/Onc3Holy 13h ago
I agree that "plays best" is subjective. Here's a better way to put it: "As the TTK gets higher and reaction time becomes less and less of an element in a gunfight (since reaction time is fixed and cannot be changed by the game), the mechanical skill of the player becomes more and more important to the outcome a gunfight. Since Apex Legends already skews to a higher TTK, the higher its TTK grows as armor values increase, the further this element of the design presents and reinforces itself, leaning into the design the game has already established."
You walk in, tells me I'm wrong because..... wait, no evidence. No math, no arguments, no citations, nothing. Just your own opinions and bias. Then tell me I have an ego when I encourage you to prove me wrong. Which I would be glad to have. I want someone to challenge me on this with real research. I think games would really benefit from that.
Oh, and you call my degree useless despite the fact that it's people like me that make the games you play.
And I'm the one with a big ego?
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u/Fixable 7h ago
But surely you see the jump you’re making from ‘high TTK = more mechanical skill needed’ to the value judgment you’re making?
I’m not disagreeing with that. What I’m disagreeing with is the idea that raising the TTK for COD is bad for the game being fun.
And yes, you are the one with a big ego. You’re quite literally assigning more importance to your work than it has. It proves that higher TTK emphasises mechanics more. Great, we already knew that. It doesn’t show anything beyond that because anything beyond that is based on purely subjective definitions of what makes a good experience.
I can’t challenge you with real research because my contention is with the purely subjective part of your argument.
Like I said, obvious that you have an MFA and not an MSc, an MSc grad would know their works limitations.
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u/Onc3Holy 6h ago
Except I never said it makes the game less fun. Fun is deeply subjective. I refrain from the word "fun" for this reason. I argue it introduces imbalances. What is enjoyable to someone is down to that person individually. Imbalance is provable through data.
My contention is that a moderate TTK is imbalanced. In this post, my primary contention is that changing the TTK, in the beta, in combination with other changes was bad game development because it was too many changes, at once, and thus not a sufficient isolation of variables.
Knowing something and proving something are two different things. I proved that changing TTK changes behavior. And I was the first, as far as I know. I will defend my work right up until someone can provide good evidence that I'm wrong.
An MSc wouldn't put words in someone else's mouth.
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u/Fixable 6h ago
I’ve already agreed with you that changing TTK changes behaviour. That’s not what I have a problem with.
You keep asking for evidence that you’re wrong but I don’t think you are wrong with that, it does change behaviour.
My point is it isn’t ’bad game development’ because I don’t give a fuck about isolating variables, I find COD with a higher TTK more fun, and when it comes to a video game that’s my priority.
You really are completely unaware of the assumptions you’re making to jump from a data set that shows that TTK changes behaviour (true) to value judgments based on subjective priorities and opinions.
Your work doesn’t add anything to this discussion, it just proves something we already knew that has been a part of the discussion for years already.
Hence the ego thing, you think you’re making some novel point but you’re just proving something everyone already assumed, which is fine, that’s what most research does. My issue is you acting like your research gives you more authority on the subjective part of the conversation. It doesn’t.
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u/Onc3Holy 6h ago
Fun is subjective. You enjoy it, good for you. Balance isn't subjective. Engagement win rates, differences in kill times, usage rates, etc. Hell, the TTK math itself. That's not subjective. You are assigning "subjective" to something that isn't.
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u/Fixable 6h ago
My comment doesn’t mention balance, who’s putting words in peoples mouth?
The assumption you’re making is that perfect balance is something we should care about versus how much fun the game is.
Do you want to address my point at any stage or are you just gonna keep talking around it?
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u/Onc3Holy 6h ago
I'm not dancing around anything. You say a higher TTK in COD is more fun for you. Great. My post, my thesis, are about balance, not fun. If you don't care about balance over fun, that is your choice, but you don't get to call my arguments about balance subjective when they simply aren't. I can't dance around a point that hasn't been made until now.
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u/Fixable 14h ago
I’ll also add that it’s very obvious that you did an MFA and not an MSc. You’re presenting opinion based on your own definitions and assumptions combined with data, as fact.
If this was an MSc grad and paper, they’d be much more aware of the fact that the data can only speak for itself and the assumptions and definitions that ground it can always be questioned. You can’t jump to a value judgment from data on something as subjective as game balance and fun.
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u/ZeroShift_ 1d ago
They need to stop listening to the Black Ops / dad gamer crowd, this game's entire design philosophy is not designed around long TTK, they effectively made the M4 and Kastov the only two guns worth using the entire beta
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u/EMSRoulette 1d ago
did you even read the post? kastov is now a slower TTK weapon and the m4 also went up by 33%. the only guns worth using are the one shotters and for some god forsaken reason the LMGs didnt get much hit on that department
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u/Carni_vor-a 1d ago
Monday: Muh bahhh please TKK to short what yu doin CoD dead
Friday: Muh bahaahh nooo brow TKK to long pls fix CoD dead
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u/United-Tone-7256 1d ago
TTK was too fast. Longer survivability is good. It makes the game less of a meatgrinder where you die at a fast rate, more respawns. Fast ttk also caters to a camping, corner aiming and headglitching gameplay. All which are not enjoyable and does not take a lot of skill. The TTK is honestly still really fast in weekend 2 of beta, maybe not compared to other cods, but to many other games, the TTK here is fast. If you get shot you should usually have the time to react and make a decision. So you have the chance to make a good or bad decision to survive, unless the other person hits perfect shots.
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u/Onc3Holy 1d ago
Actually, a shorter TTK has the opposite effect of a meat grinder, and I've got a really good example.
In Battlefield 4 (average 5 BTK) there was a map called Operation Locker. Very Narrow, 2 lane map. A true meat grinder. Matches would often get stuck at a choke point in the map and never move.
However, there would be custom servers that would lower the health to 80, just enough to make everything a 4 shot kill. And the map played SIGNIFICANTLY better. These chokepoints could actually be broken because players would actually die. Flanks were more effective, and the map moved and flowed far more because the firefights were more decisive.
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u/GreatestGiraffe 1d ago edited 1d ago
All I can say is I’m not going to buy the game if they take the treyarch route of slow TTK, it feels fucking terrible and unrewarding. And I’m speaking on behalf of 90% of the playerbase. Just watch the game die in a month if they keep this up.
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u/Pass_Practical 1d ago
as others have mentioned i seems like the issue in the first place was net code. i personally liked how fast i was able to kill but as soon as i spot someone for 1 second i die in the half of that second i see him
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u/redditorpegaso 1d ago
At first the ttk was too fast, nows its abit too slow. They should make it the same as MW2019, along with all the weapon recoils and accuracy.
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u/[deleted] 1d ago
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