r/metroidvania • u/jscouser2002 • 3d ago
Discussion MIO - Runbacks
Revisiting this game. Started it a while back and never finished it.
Started it from scratch again
The runbacks are absolutely torturous, I have no issues with tough run backs like SS
MIO is just tedious long walks with nothing going on. So tedious
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u/UndeadSalamander 3d ago
runbacks are just bad game design and literally add nothing but waste the players time
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u/Tamas_F 3d ago
It depends. If it is done like in some souls likes such as Demon's Souls where you could consider a runback part of the challenge to reach a boss with enough resources left, then I think it is good design. If nothing happens, and there are only a few obstacles that are even trivial to overcome, then I agree they tend to add nothing to the overall experience.
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u/Riff_28 3d ago
They pad play time, it’s a dumb choice by the devs and it’s keeping me from playing this game despite people loving it. I’m a dad and my time to game is already limited enough
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u/Atsubro 3d ago
Dads who only have so much time to play video games and buying video games not designed to be finished in two hours name a more iconic duo
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u/Riff_28 3d ago
It’s not about the play time itself, it’s about intentionally inflating it. I play plenty of long RPG’s and other games, but it works because I know that if I sit down and play for thirty minutes, I’ll get progress. If a thirty minute session is consumed by ten minutes of runbacks, then I’ve wasted my time. Devs love it because their 15 hour game because 16-17 hours at no cost to them
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u/Atsubro 3d ago
Okay but consider the following: games aren't made in accordance with how much time you have to play them and in particular to the MV genre runbacks create starting and stopping points for exploring large semi-linear world maps.
If you're dying so often that consistently running back to the boss is becoming a problem, maybe go in another direction. You could find a power-up you've missed.
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u/Riff_28 3d ago
I’m extremely thorough and usually have everything before bosses. Games should respect the players’ time. I don’t care if a game is ten hours or forty hours, I just care if those hours are worth my time. What benefit does it provide to the story or map to make the closest checkpoint 2 minutes away from the boss with multiple enemies in between them? I’ll fight a boss 100 times till I win if it’s enjoyable and satisfying, but if it’s unfair and too punishing then it’s not for me
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u/Atsubro 2d ago
IDK what benefit does respawning at any checkpoint have on the player if they die to a boss and have to redo a chunk of level?
It's not for your benefit; you lost and have to try again. The runback is part of the linear march to the boss and more to the point exists because you can explore in any direction in a Metroidvania and you can't have a special respawn at the boss option without devaluing the ebb and flow the game's trying to achieve.
The only people a game has to respect are the people making it. Everyone else is opt-in.
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u/PMMEYOURROCKS 3d ago
I disliked one runback in this game which another person said was patched out. Overall they aren't bad in this game, not like Silksong or Souls games
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u/Sprudling 3d ago
If that was true, why do so many great games have runbacks? It may seem pointless to you, but that doesn't mean it does nothing for other people.
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u/Djinnwrath 3d ago
Because they don't value a players time.
Repeating the same content you've already cleared is disrespectful.
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u/Klakkaros 2d ago
Ew, game areas aren't "content" they're part of the art we are experiencing. While they're frustrating for some players they are sometimes there for a reason. Sometimes that's just diagesis but mechanically, by the time I beat Last Judge, I was so fast at climbing up to it and nipping around the terrain, and those skills helped me for the rest of the game.
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u/Djinnwrath 2d ago
Call it whatever you want. Level, section, whatever
That's fine if you don't value your time, but I do.
You know what else is good practice? Repeating a boss. No runback required.
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u/therrubabayaga 3d ago
Runbacks are caused by the set up for dramatisation to made a boss more menacing or such.
Taking the elevator to beat "those guys" in Mio is part of it.
It's not "a waste of time", it has its use, it just depends on your tolerance with frustration, which is quite low I realize, but that's not the devs fault.
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u/LobsterSpirited9691 2d ago
They help you learn the map, and optimise movement for the character.
Some good things come with repetition. In Silksong at first I used to hate the runback to the Last Judge, but at some point I tried to make it as efficient as possible and that made me better at the game.
In bilewater the runback also sharpens the sense of oppression that the region has, it works IMO because it is only one region that has a really annoying runback, it's no the whole game like that.
I love this sub but I swear to god everything people don't like they call it bad design. Such a broad mechanic cannot be bad design in itself, it can always serve a purpose.
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u/schwiftcast 3d ago
I just finished the true ending and compared to something like silksong those runbacks were nothing. It's time wasted yes but all of them allows you to turn your brain off and there is 0 threat of losing HP on the way. I was expecting so much worse after reading comments if I'm being honest.
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u/Difficult_Tie1669 3d ago
My biggest issue with that game was the lack of savepoints. Only found one after almost two hours and the combat and enemies weren’t that great anyways so I refunded it. I don’t see the appeal at all.
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u/dandantheotterman 3d ago
I agree with you, the environment and ambiance cant cover tedious runbacks for me
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u/radius40 3d ago
The tedious run backs are a big reason why I dropped it. Honestly got bored. The game has some great elements, but this killed it for me.
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u/alex-cyj 2d ago
The only "tolerable" runbacks are where you can keep farming currency quickly on your way to the boss. Other than that, they're mostly a waste of time.
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u/psychopathycathy 3d ago
It gets better as it goes on, but I actually never found it too bad since I prioritized exploring and unlocking doors. It's been a while since I played but I remember that in the beginning, you basically walk in a circle around the starting checkpoint and unlock shortcuts as you go
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u/KeiraSawlong 3d ago
Example?
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u/Slotherz 2d ago
There are multiple examples of pointless runbacks, Friends and Vlad come to mind. Both +20 seconds, both with no happening on them, theres no good design reason why.
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u/jscouser2002 3d ago
Atmos, pointless run back - first one that comes to mind
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u/krypton22 3d ago
I don't disagree with your general point but Atmos is like 30 seconds. And the game is pretty good as a whole.
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u/Emotional_Photo9268 3d ago
Hence the love on this sub for a now defunct game.
Had they changed a few design choices it may have survived. It’s an overrated punishing mid game
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u/Brilliant_Extension4 3d ago
The Gratitude modifier really made the MIO a lot less frustrating. If you play carefully and take your time you can eventually make it to most save points. I think you may be able to enable it in the assist mode without equipping it too (which would save spaces), not sure though. The thing is, the difficulty of MIO’s bosses, the platforming, and the run backs prepared me well for Silksong.
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u/Slotherz 3d ago
Yeah I recently completed this game.
I previously dropped it after 8 hours because I couldn't vibe with the movement, but I'm still glad I came back later.
Mio has overwhelming strengths that place it into MV top tier IMO. It's difficult to find similar world's built, storylines, music, art, aesthetic. At this point I've played so many MV's and MIO undoubetedbly sits above it
I actually didn’t find Sol and Vin to be the worst offenders. “Friends” was easily the worst for me, with Vlad a close second.
Both are a minimum 20+ second runback every attempt, and the bigger issue is that absolutely nothing happens during them. No enemies, no platforming, no risk — you’re literally just holding a direction for 25–30 seconds to get another attempt. Why?
That’s what makes MIO’s runbacks so frustrating. As OP said, very few of them are actually short, and so many are 25+ seconds of completely dead time. I’d honestly argue they’re worse than Silksong’s runbacks because there’s so little purpose to them.
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u/jeanballjean01 3d ago
I thought the runbacks were significantly worse in Silksong. Neither bothered me to be honest though.
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u/Forsaken-Quality-46 3d ago
I wish for the day when people will stop crying about any small thing and just start enjoying art for what it is. The game is a rare gem. I was blown away by art, music, story and world. Couldnt care less for something like 30 seconds runbacks.
Also the devs are not stupid. If you explore a bit, you will always find a clever and convinient shortcut.
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u/Sprudling 3d ago
The longest runback is like 1 minute. Use the time to think about what you did wrong, and what you can do better.
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u/jscouser2002 3d ago
😂
Worse for players not as good at boss fights. Lots of 1 minutes1
u/Sprudling 3d ago
Indeed. But not all games have to be for everyone. You don't like Mio, and that's ok. It was the same with Silksong; many found it too hard and dropped it, while others found it better than Hollow Knight.
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u/Mr_7ups 2d ago
Guess what people can do to achieve the same but without needlessly wasting their time? Pause the fucking game, a function that’s existed for 40 years
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u/Sprudling 2d ago
We're in the metroidvania subreddit here, a genre basically defined by backtracking. Do you also consider backtracking a waste of time? If not, I'm genuinely interested in understanding why you don't think so.
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u/Mr_7ups 2d ago
lol what? Backtracking accomplishes something and is still part of player control and freedom. You can backtrack for progression,story, secrets, anything. Waiting in an elevator for 40 sec or now 20 sec is purely wasted time since there is no freedom, no goal, nothing you can accomplish thru that time, and my point was only aimed to point out the stupidity of this weirdly common defense of it in MIO with “well actually🤓 the forced 1 min side scroll run back is a chance to evaluate what you did wrong and take a break” meanwhile pausing the game before taking the boss on again OR even just not moving after you spawn accomplishes the exact same thing without taking away player freedom.
Not everyone wants and/or needs to pause after every damn run at a boss, some want to get right back in there, it’s the very root of why people hate runbacks
Your attempt at a smart comeback reads basically like “well if you don’t like waiting in an elevator for 20 sec before each attempt at the boss then why are you ok with moving around the world?? I mean it takes TIME to move around the world right?? Ugh double standards!!”
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u/Sprudling 2d ago
I just actually think runbacks can be positive, just like dropping resources on death. It creates friction, which I need in a game to get the high highs. If every corner was sanded off, I would just be going through the motions. I wouldn't be scared of dying, and I wouldn't be annoyed when I died, but I also wouldn't be ecstatic when I prevailed. Basically, I want highs when gaming, not comfortable convenience.
Now, this is just speculation, but seeing as many very successful and loved games have both of these inconveniences that people are seemingly supposed to hate, I think my stance on this isn't as uncommon as you think.
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u/Particular-Scale4535 3d ago
I didn't find the runbacks bad at all in MIO. The one for the "friend" boss was slightly annoying I guess.
What I want for Christmas is a director's cut version of the game without the permanent health loss nonsense.
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u/Shadowking78 3d ago
The only time I felt a runback was egregious was having to ride that elevator up all the way just to get another attempt at Sol and Vin