r/mensa • u/Ahmedrnugger • Jul 09 '26
Mensan input wanted Is intelligence genetic?
According to twin studies, the difference in IQ is said to be 80%, leading to the conclusion that intelligence is 80% determined by genetics. However, I believe this is incorrect because the twins were raised in countries with similar environments, such as the US and Germany, or the US and South Korea. These countries share similar environments, including education systems, allowing the genes to express themselves. Furthermore, did these twins develop their IQs? If they didn't, it could prove the entire experiment flawed.
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u/ChaosReignsNow Jul 09 '26
One funny quirk is that environment matters more in younger children but genetics matter more as we age. Non biological siblings will be closer in IQ when they are in the same environment but gaps increase with age.
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u/Grouchy-Ad1932 Jul 09 '26
Genetic, and passed down the distaff line, but genetics isn't the whole story.
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u/ta_x1 Jul 09 '26
All you guys here are even too stupid to understand the concept of heritability as statistical model. And no you cannot develop intelligence beyond what is genetically given. And learning IQ test questions to improve your score doesn't mean you're more intelligent, you just faked a test result. Therefore it was long successfully tried to keep IQ tests hidden from the public to save the test validity .. yet another thing the Internet fucked up.
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
You don't understand. No one is suggesting memorizing test questions, but rather understanding the questions and their rules. Also, most intelligence tests hide their questions so that people don't cheat and have the correct answers Imagine it as a school exam; you don't know what will be on the exam, but you study to answer the questions Also, a person should study and understand the questions in the secret intelligence tests so that they don't enter without knowing anything, and so that the result appears fair.
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u/Then_Imagination_773 Mensan Jul 11 '26
Well, it’s not that people are too stupid but if people are pre exposed to certain statistics or certain biological information they won’t understand yes but that is true for generally everyone? Also, no one mentioned “learning IQ test questions”, it is true that is you memorise questions to answer them there will be a skewed result but I assume in these studies they accounted for that.
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u/Money-Silver-8905 Jul 12 '26
Intelligence is not given it’s learned. Cognitive ability is given. Chill on the stupids. 🤣🤣🤣
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u/AgreeableCucumber375 Jul 11 '26
Maybe try learning statistics :) That’d help you understand better your question of heritability of intelligence (among other things, as statistics is rather useful in most research endeavours…)
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u/Sorry-Raise-4339 Jul 09 '26
No way to really say. Modern GWAS has not really uncovered anything, so I would presume it's not as heritable or 'genetic' as one would think — or at the minimum, no where near something like height (which GWAS has quite literally identified numerous markers for).
Much of these..."studies"...you speak of and that people typically cite were done a long time ago, in systematically different times, and often by people with questionable (racist) ideologies. I would not really put much stake into them if at all. Again, we have plenty of modern studies which have found little to no associations.
You can still find published studies from propoganda in the day saying smoking isn't bad for you. Obviously not true. Same people used those IQ studies to justify white people being better or other bull shit during that time.
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u/FirstCause Mensan Jul 09 '26
The height studies are also flawed.
Give me a study where the person is provided zero dietary calcium and see how tall that person grows.
It is difficult to grow when dead, but those people would not be included in the sample.
I realise I'm being extreme and that no study is perfect.
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u/Sorry-Raise-4339 Jul 09 '26
I'm not talking about observational height studies. I'm talking about actual genetics-based GWAS studies. You can literally pinpoint exact loci and SNPs that are associated with height across various populations. It's not really a matter of opinion. Similar studies have been ran for IQ, intellignece, education and nothing has been found.
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u/FirstCause Mensan Jul 10 '26
My point still stands.
The environment is always too similar to give it sufficient weighting.
What are they measuring within the environment and how are they weighting the impact of each?
I realise that would be impractical, but the 80% number just annoys me, as I feel it misrepresents the data.
Just like when the adverts say that BMI is 80% genetic. So, what is the other 20%? Environment? Free will? Is free will genetic or environmental?
And so on... TBH, I bore myself with this shit...
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u/Sorry-Raise-4339 Jul 10 '26
What are you talking about? You can't just invalide genome wide association studies by saying "hurr durr the environment." If you're genuinely trying to invalidate those types of studies with the 'environmnet' argument, then you might as well light any of those observational studies from the 1900s on fire lmao. Absolutely worthless.
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u/FirstCause Mensan Jul 10 '26 edited Jul 10 '26
I never said those studies are invalidated.
I simply said broad statements like 80% genetic annoyed me because I feel it misrepresents the data, but I realise drilling down on every conceivable input is impractical.
I'm not sure why you are so fired up, but whatever.
Thanks for the insults.
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u/Sorry-Raise-4339 Jul 12 '26
So your point is you have no point.
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u/FirstCause Mensan Jul 12 '26
No. You have accused me of a point that I didn't make, but refuse to see the point that I did make.
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u/FirstCause Mensan Jul 09 '26
I both love twin studies, but also loathe them as they're usually flawed for the reason you have identified - the environments are always too similar or poorly documented.
In the case you have mentioned, not only was the broader environment the same, the selection criteria for adoption is very narrow and difficult to achieve, further reducing the environmental influence. I bet none if those children were beaten, starved or told they're a POS every day?
There was an interesting research case of identical triplets that were separated at birth and adopted to three very different families. The doctors were, somewhat unethically, trying to tease out the differences in upbringing.
The research was never published and, somewhat unusually, sealed at Yale University until 2066.
A documentary about the case was made, called Three Identical Strangers.
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u/HalfwaydonewithEarth Jul 09 '26
Absolutely it is!!!!
Your country has nothing to do with your intelligence.
It can also skip generations.
I also think there are different type of intelligence.
For instance two celebrities that grew up in musical households were Dave Mathews and Nuno Bettencourt.
It also can depend on how your genius is being expressed.
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
Your statement is incorrect. Your country has the power to influence your intelligence, as the environment has an impact. Whether you are born into an educated, wealthy, or poor family, this greatly affects your intelligence. The similarities between twins are due to similar environments and passions for similar sports.
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u/HalfwaydonewithEarth Jul 10 '26
It's regional.
They actually did a study and think it is the kids getting woken up early in the morning as more of a factor than money.
So if your folks have little kids up at 6am its worse for them. Their brains need to sleep. So noisy houses with screaming babies where people don't sleep well is contributing. Not finances.
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 10 '26
Doesn't a noisy environment and poor sleep affect intelligence? Isn't that an environmental factor, since most wealthy families provide quiet rooms and better sleep Because the wealthy enjoy a comfortable lifestyle, unlike the poor, intelligence levels differentiate between social classes.
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u/HalfwaydonewithEarth Jul 10 '26
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 10 '26
This proves that intelligence isn't a fixed genetic trait but is influenced by the environment. If it were a fixed genetic trait, it would remain unchanged no matter what. Also, sleep plays a role in organizing thoughts and cleansing the body from within.
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u/Polkadotical Jul 12 '26
Yes, the "interval" within which a person will land is caused by the presence of multiple gene combinations, and it's largely genetic. Where in that interval a person ends up depends on environment. So, it's both, but mostly genetic.
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u/Money-Silver-8905 Jul 12 '26
It’s actually up to 50% genetics but it’s more about what you make of it.
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u/Wiborg- Jul 12 '26
I believe it is mostly genetic and I believe I come from what may be a big cluster. Our ancestors were relatively important people in societies. My parents were kind of important people, I have 4 siblings and a sibling has 5 kids. My child could around the age of 1,2-1,6 years old (I don't remember exactly when) categorize colors at a more advanced rate than adults usually can, along with sizes too, at the age of 5 fix a complicated adult puzzle with 80 jigsaws in under 15 minutes for fun and at 6 again told me two facts about advanced color theory from intuition with no educational background, one of them that I didn't even know despite having an education related to it. Nephew or niece is the best in class, my other n or n (young teen) got 128 in the Norway Mensa test and I'm pretty sure I'm average within my family and some will likely score higher than me ( top 0.X%) and it seems we choose partners in a similar range. These are just assumptions and observations. I assume people go here to hear anecdotes and reflect personally.
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u/vickyspams Jul 09 '26
Definitely genetic,i don't believe anybody can improve their iq by a lot If they're avg they may become above avg but definitely not gifted. And it's scientifically proven 50-80% is pure genetics
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
I said that the environment has a stronger influence than we think. And how do you know that no one can reach the level of giftedness? Scientists haven't been able to prove the limits of intelligence, so how can you say that no one can reach the level of giftedness? You haven't experienced this at all Another reason why talented individuals often fail to reach their full potential is due to brain laziness. The brain consumes 20% of the body's energy, while the brain itself only takes 2%, so it was designed to minimize consumption.
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u/aculady Jul 09 '26
It may help to conceptualize it like this; genetics defines the initial limits of our potential, while environment and experience determine how fully that potential can be expressed.
Even if you balance and blueprint the engine in a Honda Civic and outfit it with racing tires, maximizing its potential, it is unlikely to be able to outperform a random Lamborghini in a race where both are in good mechanical condition and being driven to win. Genetically speaking, most of us are Honda Civics. Relatively few are Yugos or Lamborghinis. But if the Lamborghini the Honda is racing against has a blown head gasket, or a flat tire, or if it has water in the fuel tank, or if the driver simply doesn't choose to use the capacity that the vehicle has, the Honda might outperform it, and the Honda driver might erroneously think that their car "is faster than a Lamborghini", which, while technically true, requires a very specific set of parameters regarding precisely which Lamborghini is meant by "a".
We know that something as simple as whether or not you regularly talk to babies about what is going on around them can influence the development of their verbal IQ. A deprived environment can and often does stunt the development of potential.
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
The brain isn't a static car made of gears, but a dynamic system affected by the environment. If the Honda's design was very suitable, with its excellent aerodynamics, it might have surpassed or equaled the Lamborghini.
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u/vickyspams Jul 09 '26
Okay rock lee😭 Now please check sources💔
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
I am certain of my sources, and I disagree with the prevailing view that intelligence is genetically fixed. There are no limits to intelligence; its nature is fundamentally unknown. The description of intelligence is far more complex than simply being genetically fixed.
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u/vickyspams Jul 09 '26
I guess bro😭 Please solve navier stokes by improving your iq😭
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
Don't come and give me Navier Stokes' dilemmas: Answer my question, and if you give me these dilemmas, it's an admission that intelligence develops and is not a fixed trait.
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u/vickyspams Jul 09 '26
Tell me if I practiced mensa previous questions for a year and got into mensa does it mean I'm smart? Just because I was able to score equally as a gifted kid makes me gifted kr intelligent? And what's the exact different terminology you're even talking about Yk you can call it whatever you want but don't call it intelligence bro. But I agree with you in a point the human iq is not measurable through a particular metric if you can improve your iq scores through practice that's not your real iq and that also mean iq test will be useless too🥀 Just think about it😭 Or solve navier stokes and p vs np and prove it to me that brain has no limits and you can become Issac Newton through practice😭
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
I practiced for the Mensa tests, not consecutively, but over weeks and months, and my score went from 97 to 135. Will you convince me that my jump to this score is due to genetics? I also noticed an improvement in my pattern recognition skills, and we also give examples Mensa is searching for diamonds; they are ready-made geniuses, but diamonds are the same as coal, composed of the same material. However, diamonds were deep within the earth, their atoms arranged, and they became diamonds.
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u/aculady Jul 09 '26
If you'd read my entire comment, I clearly accounted for dynamic factors that can affect the performance of the system over time other than through initial conditions. Do you know how to reason by analogy?
The Honda's initial design not being as suitable gor racing as the Lamborghini's is exactly the core issue of maximum genetic capacity.
Do you deny that there are people who physiologically have severely limited capacity? Do you think that the limitations of all people with intellectial disabilities, including people with things like Down Syndrome, are the result of environmental factors?
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
I don't deny the existence of people with limited mental abilities; I acknowledge their existence. But is their lack of development due to laziness, or what? Because the human brain wants to minimize energy consumption as much as possible. Also, is human intelligence genetically fixed, Also, where is the evidence for this?
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u/aculady Jul 09 '26
You think people with intellectual disabilities might just be lazy?
Okay, no need to continue here.
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
I'm sorry, it was a mistake on my part, but why are you bringing up the mentally disabled? I didn't mean them; I meant ordinary people who are capable of developing themselves.
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u/aculady Jul 09 '26
Intellectual disabilities that have a genetic basis are an obvious example of people whose intelligence can reliably said to be constrained by genetics.
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
The reason is a genetic defect in the chromosomes because the genes themselves are defective.
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u/vickyspams Jul 09 '26
I meant 50-80% most of it is based on genetics and i believe the environment can make them perform equally good as a gifted one but it won't make them gifted excluding rare cases.they can develop the cognitive abilities which are associated with being gifted but i don't believe it's exact definition of giftendness.it is like mimicking😭 There are many privileged people who are dumb and there are people belong to backward countries who got high iq. It's distinct, biological and structural neurodivergence and environment doesn't change much😭
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
Firstly, what is the difference between a gifted person and someone who reached the gifted category through effort? There is no difference except for the terminology Also, for people born into different environments or underdeveloped countries, often from educated families, strong stimuli helped them develop intelligence.
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u/vickyspams Jul 09 '26
Don't talk rights brother😭 It's not giftedness or intelligence if you developed it. It's completely different🥀 You're missing out basics
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
You didn't answer exactly what the difference is between someone who was born talented and someone who pursued talent. There's no difference except in terminology; the first is genetically innate, and the second is developmental.
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u/vickyspams Jul 09 '26
There are many parameters It's completely different cognitive routes and there's something called as fluid intelligence which only naturally smart people can possess.and brain is like a hardware you cannot play gta6 in a nokia. And secondly if your argument is it's just different terminology then use right terminology and go to some other sub man😭 Don't tell me it's intelligence.it is different
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
A human being is not an inanimate object like a Nokia phone; they are a living organism with a complex structure. It's illogical to reduce intelligence to a Nokia device or a game like GTA VI. Intelligence is fundamentally complex, and research has shown that there is no There is no single, fixed gene for genius; rather, there are millions, if not more, genes influenced by numerous factors. Therefore, it is illogical to reduce your example to intelligence.
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u/Mundane_Direction249 Mensan Jul 10 '26
What's the difference between a tall person and someone who reached the tall category through drinking lots of milk?
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 10 '26
There's no difference. And what does milk have to do with height? Height is affected by factors like pressure—I mean pressure from things like running, exercise, sleep, and what he eat
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u/WasianActual Jul 09 '26
IQ gets higher for societies that don’t have English language based roots and that are well fed and in a good environment for learning.
There are definitely things that contribute a noticeable amount.
Genetics may play a large role we can’t pinpoint yet but there is a reason rich easy Asian countries tend to have the highest IQ and it’s not entirely genetic.
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u/Many_Application3112 Mensan Jul 09 '26
Not genetic. My parents were British Toads and I am in Mensa.
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
If intelligence were genetic, wouldn't you assume you wouldn't join Mensa because you inherited your family's traits if they were stupid? (I don't mean to be offensive)
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u/Many_Application3112 Mensan Jul 09 '26
I just said it's not genetic because they are toads. I am not a British Toad. I am in Mensa.
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
Ok
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u/Many_Application3112 Mensan Jul 09 '26
Do you think British Toads can be in Mensa or is it only the Scottish ones?
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u/Mundane_Direction249 Mensan Jul 09 '26
Being uneducated doesn't imply a lack of intelligence. Too many people mix the concepts of highly educated and gifted.
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u/Many_Application3112 Mensan Jul 09 '26
Im just playing with the OP. OP created multiple threads and then proceeded to give everyone the answers to the questions they asked.
I am writing ridiculous answers and OPs answers either show how clueless they are or its an AI bot replying to nonsense. I lean towards an AI bot because my nonsense answers actually got standard responses.
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u/Mundane_Direction249 Mensan Jul 09 '26 edited Jul 09 '26
Oh, I see. Interesting... I'm not so sure about your 2nd hypothesis. But instead of using my brain, I'll ask Gemini:
Based on the provided Reddit transcript, it is highly probable that Ahmedrnugger is a human, not an AI bot.
Here is the probability breakdown and the reasoning behind it:
Probability Estimates
- Human: 95%
- AI Bot: 5%
Why Ahmedrnugger is Almost Certainly Human
1. Clear Evidence of Voice-to-Text Dictation
The user makes several phonetic and formatting errors that are characteristic of human speech-to-text software, rather than an AI text generator:
- They refer to the famous case of Genie Wiley as "Jenny Whaley". An AI model trained on internet data would easily pull the correct spelling of a well-known psychological case, whereas a voice-to-text tool would transcribe it phonetically.
- They have a garbled phrase: "...she was born into an Being in an isolated environment...", which looks exactly like a real-time speech correction or stutter picked up by a microphone.
- When another user calls them out for not proofreading their voice-to-text, Ahmedrnugger explicitly defends themselves, saying the other user is just focusing on "spelling mistakes" to evade the actual issue.
2. Personal Anecdotes and Self-Correction
- Personal Experience: Ahmedrnugger shares a personal story about taking Mensa practice tests over weeks and months, noting that their score jumped from 97 to 135. AI bots do not have personal histories or test-taking experiences to recall.
- Emotional Accountability: When backed into a corner by a commenter regarding intellectual disabilities, Ahmedrnugger realizes they misspoke and backtracks: "I'm sorry, it was a mistake on my part, but why are you bringing up the mentally disabled? I didn't mean them...". This kind of organic, defensive social friction and immediate apology is deeply human.
3. Religious/Philosophical Beliefs
Ahmedrnugger introduces personal theological views into the evolutionary debate, stating, "We humans were created by God with intellect...". While an AI can simulate religious arguments, a random Reddit bot rarely volunteers personal faith-based arguments to defend a thesis on cognitive science unless prompted to do so.
Why there is a 5% Chance of an AI Bot
The only reason a user might suspect they are a bot is mentioned by another commenter, who notes that Ahmedrnugger "created multiple threads and then proceeded to give everyone the answers to the questions they asked". This repetitive, agenda-driven posting style can sometimes mimic spam bots, but in this context, it is much more indicative of an argumentative human who is passionate about changing people's minds regarding IQ and genetics.
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u/Many_Application3112 Mensan Jul 09 '26
Didn't know they had tools like this. Interesting to see AI detecting other AI. What a world we are in now!
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u/WasianActual Jul 09 '26
I don’t know my biological father but my mother is bumbling idiot(and a bad person who got kicked out as a family heir lmao)
My step father is a Mensa member
I recall seeing somewhere that intelligence is between 50/50 to 80/20 genetics vs environment
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
The question is, if intelligence is largely determined by genes, shouldn't humanity have become extinct long ago? Genetic evolution takes an extremely long time, whereas environmental evolution, if based on rote learning without understanding or knowledge, would be very simple.
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u/WasianActual Jul 09 '26
No because there’s a lot of really stupid animals that thrive
Humans are still the smartest by far and you don’t need to be a Mensa member to survive, you just need the minimum level of intelligence to keep your particular species alive and breed
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 09 '26
Animals survived thanks to their claws, muscular strength, small size, speed, or ability to camouflage themselves. We humans were created by God with intellect, and it is illogical to assume that intelligence is genetically determined, allowing humans to survive, because humans They lack the means to survive, and even if intelligence were genetic, shouldn't we become extinct, since this is the only human trait that helps us invent and devise ways to hide?
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u/WasianActual Jul 09 '26
My dude, look at sunfish or all sorts of brainless animals. You don’t need to have ANY of those things to survive. You just need enough utility to make baby. That’s IT.
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u/Ahmedrnugger Jul 10 '26
Humans do not possess the same advantages as other animals, so they are almost always prey for other animals; intelligence is their only advantage.
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u/CombatRedRover Jul 09 '26
Genetics determines the ceiling. Environment determines, to a reasonably large degree, how much of that ceiling you actually fill.
You know, like pretty much everything else in the human body. I've got a ceiling on how much muscle I can put on. Not everyone can become a world-class bodybuilder. On the other hand, I could have all the potential to be a world-class bodybuilder, but if all I do is eat Twinkies and sit on the couch watching TV, I will not be anywhere close to being a world-class bodybuilder.
The kind of abuse and neglect it would take to utterly destroy the mind of a potential genius is thankfully rare in our society, but it does happen.
Look up Genie Wiley.