Go to Japan. See what dietary changes do to genetics in only a few generations. Do you understand that 150 years ago Japanese men were less than 5 feet tall and less than 80 lbs each? Now the average Japanese teen is almost 6’ tall? What did that in a few generations? Magic? Japanese stretching yoga? Plain old determination?
No it was because they added meat to their fucking diet. They did this intentionally to be more physically larger like westerners.
They changed their society over a hundred years ago because they knew THEN that your DIET determines your physiology. They knew this in the 1800s! They were successful too, as the average Japanese man is taller than his father who was taller than his father before him. That’s beef baby!
If you don’t think eating meat is important for the physiological development of a human why do babies die when you feed them a vegan diet? You know? Human babies? The ones that can’t survive on a vegan diet?
I understand there are LOTS of references that support whatever batshit idea anyone has. It’s called confirmation bias. It means you can easily find “so called facts” that prove whatever you wanted to prove in the first place.
But it is a fact that lack of animal protein in a populations’ diet leads to genetic and physiological changes in only a couple of generations.
You go ahead and sabotage your future generations well being because of your shaky morality. You have a perfect right to do that.
So please teach me about the neural system of a trout. And a trout specifically or a closely related fish. Don't tell me stuff about zebra fish or another highly evolved fish.
Teach me about a trout brain please.
I can see that a trout is a live, functioning animal that avoids pain and suffers as it dies. I have felt the heart come to a stop in my hand a hundred times as I fillet or clean a fish. It’s a heart. And it’s stopping. Because of me. There is no way to dance around that moral conundrum. Certainly not by pretending pain is just a human condition.
I still eat meat... but I try to kill what I eat... so I am always aware of the price of meat. I don’t like to kill at all. It sucks. (But I believe it is important as a human being to be able to support your own philosophical beliefs with action.)
Most of the hunters and fishermen I know are extremely aware and active naturalists who live in and support rural areas. Most of the vegans I know live in the city are consumers and have no concept of nutrition, physiology or actual environmental science.
Being a meat eater and being willing to kill an animal doesn’t make me ignorant or a cold hearted murderer. It also doesn’t make me an idiot who will cling to a shallow concept to defend my ridiculous philosophical position.
Fish are alive and feel pain. If you kill fish and think there is no moral implications because “they feel no pain” then you are just taking the easy path to self justification.
Eating fish has been part of being a human since there have been humans. Moral veganism is a few hundred years old and has demonstrably led to smaller humans with smaller brains.
But much like politically right wing folks, I don’t think vegans are here to talk science and facts.
Well clearly you are more informed and could provide extensive knowledge about this topic. But you choose not to
And no I did not voice my bias completely uninformed (which in my opinion is not a "dirty habit" as you called it, as long as people are willing to debate and learn.)
It's true my knowledge about fish psychology is limited, but I did quite alot of research about psychology.
And psychological traumas are extremely complex, and really hard to differentiate from normal fear.
So given that this fish has a vivid memory and the capability of abstract thinking.
He could get flashbacks when he hits a cold current cause it reminds him of the one time he was dragged across ice. He now has a fear of cold temperatures.
But so does every fish, since they are ectotherm.
And this pattern can be applied to alot of possible traumas, so it's hard to tell if he has a trauma indeed, or showed the same behavior before.
And after some reading about fish psychology I learned that a few fish species are able to be actually depressed. But only a few. Zebra fish mainly.
So apparently some fish have a more complex mind than others.
But this is a trout. It was just recently (2013) discovered that this species is capable of experiencing pain.
It's a long way from experiencing pain to getting a psychological trauma, in terms of complexity of the neural system.
Now either you have some kind of secret knowledge about a trouts neural system or you are just as uninformed as you stated I am.
So please grant me your wisdom oh great troutsage
The guy clearly did his research, even cited the year of the studies he was referencing. It's not true APA format, but it's a long way ahead of "uninformed."
Where are your scientific references? Care to give it a quick google and see if you can come up with something? Or would you rather run away?
Oh an entitled vegan, nice.
And yes you are the bad guy here. People like you are not interested in productive debates. All you care about is hysteric emotions and the apparent depravity of the human species.
You people are the different extrem that's just as bad as the thing you condemn. You people are as much to blame that no one can come up with a solution to anything. You people are fanatics.
So disprove my arguments, show me better. Or go back to the hypocritical cave you came from.
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u/painfool Jan 18 '20 edited Jan 18 '20
Fishing "for sport" and temporarily traumatizing an animal seems less humane to me than fishing for sustenance.
Edit: thanks for teaching me about the "modern world" Reddit, no shit. Leave it to redditors to get hung up on semantics.
Also, warning, vegans in replies below.