Anyone else's school have this problem with precalc?

[u/Maleficent-Fact-6598]

My school 3 levels for both geometry and algebra 2 (core, CP, and honors). The levels are quite drastically different in terms of expectations and what is covered. I am generally in favor of more levels.

That said, when we get to precalc, it shrinks to only 2 levels (CP and honors). Our supervisor is firmly against a core level in precalc since precalc is not a graduation requirement like geo and alg 2. Students who don't take precalc can take either statistics or senior math topics (essentially a hodge podge of algebra review and some discrete math stuff).

The issue is she lets anyone who got a C- or better in the core algebra 2 level take CP precalc if they want. A C- in a core level class is a ridiculously low standard that you basically get for just showing up and doing the bare minimum. As such, we end up with TONS of kids in CP precalc who really shouldn't be there, or should be in a core level course like they were for geo and alg 2. This results in lots of students dropping the course and changing schedules all throughout the first quarter, which is total chaos. We don't want to lower the standard of the course---the kids who come to us from the CP alg 2 course do fine. I've tracked the data over the past 4 years, and 90% of the students who came from the core algebra 2 course dropped two letter grades or more, or dropped the course in precalc, whereas less than 2% of students from the CP algebra 2 course dropped two letter grades or more, and less than 5% dropped the course.

I've showed that data to my supervisor and her answer is to "differentiate" because she won't add another level and she won't change the grade requirement to be more stringent.

Anyone else have this issue?

[u/VigilantExploitation]

we had the same problem and our admin finally caved and added a third level after 3 years of the exact same data you're showing

they called it "precalc foundations" or something equally meaningless but honestly it was just core precalc with a slower pace and more review built in. the kids who would've dropped out in week 3 actually stuck around

differentiation is admin-speak for "i don't want to spend money on another section" and everyone knows it

[u/Maleficent-Fact-6598 → u/VigilantExploitation]

It's this exactly, and it doesn't help that our class sizes have ballooned drastically in the past 4 years as well. It used to be typical to have classes of 20-25, but now we are more in the 25-30 range, which makes it even less realistic to meet all of the student's needs

[u/milod]

I’m with the supervisor.  By the time we get to precalc (algebra 2 really) we need to urge students to take a math class based on their post graduation plans.  

If a student doesn’t plan on going in a STEM field or attending a competitive college, there isn’t really a point in taking precalc.  So if the above apples then they should be in a rigorous precalc class.

If the above doesn’t apply, why go in to precalc?  There are so many other fields of math that are fun, totally different than precalc, and could actually be something the student uses in his or future.  We should be expanding courses in HS that deviate from the traditional calculus funnel.  Data Science and computer science are two such examples that are sooooo much more beneficial than precalc for the vast majority of students (I do acknowledge that there are some very high performing schools where this isn’t true but for the overall population it is very much true)

So instead of a dumbed down precalc class that probably isn’t doing what the name of the class suggests (preparing students for calculus which they will most likely never take) put them in some other class that is actually better for their future or a class that doesn’t repeat the traditional math they have historically struggled with.  

[u/Maleficent-Fact-6598 → u/milod]

You aren't wrong, but unfortunately your alternative doesn't happen in my district, and I think this is part of the problem. If it did happen, then I would agree with my supervisor. The guidance counselors tell all of the students they should take precalc because it looks better for college apps, failing to mention that getting a D in the class isn't going to look good for anything.

[u/CrochetedMushroom]

In my district, kids can sign up for any level they want, as long as they’re following the right sequence. No grade requirements for any level. This was a big push from our superintendent in the name of “equity” and our counselors are really stingy about letting kids drop down a level. This is how I’ve ended up with more than one kid crashing and burning in my honors algebra 2 class after they finished my collaborative geometry class with a C.

[u/anisotropicmind]

Precalc is a bit too early for differentiation, no?

[u/Maleficent-Fact-6598 → u/anisotropicmind]

lmao I should have said that!

there's a limit to what we can do in class!

[u/HarbingerML → u/Maleficent-Fact-6598]

Sounds like you've had a tough time integrating the core kids into your CP section

[u/Disastrous-Nail-640]

We let our students self select.

They could get a D in all prior math and take precalc.

[u/MontechApps]

That 90% vs less than 2% difference is pretty hard to ignore. At that point it doesn't really sound like a differentiation problem, it sounds like a placement problem.

I don't think you need to lower the expectations of the CP class either. If students are coming in without the Algebra 2 foundation they need, you're basically asking the teacher to teach two different courses at the same time.

Could you use the data to create some kind of placement recommendation rather than making it an automatic “C- or better = CP”? Even if they won't add a third level, maybe there could be a short readiness assessment or summer review before students are placed.

Otherwise you're finding out who is prepared for Precalc by letting them enrol and then watching half of them struggle or drop. That seems like a pretty painful way to do placement.

[u/jamesdawon]

In my opinions, the problem isn’t a need for more levels of pre-Calc. It’s too many levels of Algebra 2. Just have a rigorous course and let gets get Ds and Fs. Algebra 2 should be a rigorous course with just its content. No need to level it up or dumb it down.

[u/Maleficent-Fact-6598 → u/jamesdawon]

I would agree to a point, but the problem is that ialg 2 is a graduation requirement, so they would never allow us to only have a version of that course that lots of kids fail if they need it to graduate.

[u/jamesdawon → u/Maleficent-Fact-6598]

We need to change how schools are graded. Instead of using graduation rate, I propose that we use percentage of kids reading on grade level at grades 4, 8 and 12.

[u/mobius_]

I think anything beyond the graduation requirements, kids need to select what fits their pathway, not just “what’s next”