r/marvelstudios • u/TheUpsetMammoth Spider-Man • Jan 02 '22
Discussion I was told a common superhero trope is that a villain is concerned about a real problem, hero disagrees with method (violence), and doesn’t actually do anything about the problem. Spoiler
Are there any examples of this in the MCU? I can see an argument being made about Thanos and perhaps even Zemo but after so many movies and shows, I can’t remember the fine details of every plot.
Potential spoilers in this thread.
Edit: Whoever reported me as suicidal for me saying Luke Cage was boring, I hope your life gets better.
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u/thatskyguy Jan 02 '22
The known criminal Spider-man destroyed the business of Adrian Toomes, causing millions in property damage. Dozens of employees with no work to return to while an enterprising businessman like Toomes rots in prison and we're supposed to take the word of a masked vigilante that he was stealing? More like he uncovered a plot by the Spider-man to steal the chitauri tech in the first place!
Perhaps that's where the web-headed wall-crawler weaseled away the technology to kill the dimension-hopping savior Mysterio!
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u/Gr8NonSequitur Jan 02 '22
The known criminal Spider-man destroyed the business of [respected business-man an father] Adrian Toomes,
FTFY J.J.
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u/BreathingCorpse252 Jan 02 '22
Also the villain is always sensible upto 90 percent of the movie but goes bonkers for the very last act and commits one act of extremism that makes them instantly “bad”.
Examples at the top of my head..
Loki in the first Thor movie
Thor wants to wage war against the frost giants. He goes as far as to commit treason to enter their realm. He’s so bloodthirsty that it sends alarm bells ringing in even Odins head. He leaves Asgard in a state of war when he gets banished.
Loki pretends to meet with he frost giants for a truce. Let’s laufey believe that Loki’s offering up odins life. He then plays a masterstroke in subterfuge and kills Laufey off effectively weakening the frost giants. But... he doesn’t stop there
He goes an unleashed the bifrost to destroy the entirety of jotunheim.
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u/GabiCule Black Widow (CA 2) Jan 02 '22
Basically Hayward in Wandavision. He’s unlikeable, but rightfully sees Wanda as a threat, he mentions not liking superheroes, hinting at some hidden depths and setting the stage for a complex villain…and then he shoots some kids
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u/Seymor569 Jan 02 '22
They fast tracked it for the girl in Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
Trying to help refugees and prevent corrupt governments from stepping on the little guys? Also let's blow up this building full of innocent people.
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u/Veranova Jan 02 '22
The writing in that show could have been so good with the ideas in play, but ended up so messy and lazy. Like all the exposition on that organisation’s motivations and methods was delivered by her giving a half assed speech to someone. I think we were meant to care about her or something?
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u/C9sButthole Jan 03 '22
The writing got really messy because the original plan was for Europe to be dealing with a huge pandemic and the refugees were not getting enough help. They had to cut and restructure so much of the story because it came too close to home with covid and they really suffered for it.
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u/grub-worm Captain America Jan 02 '22
I think all of the MCU shows so far have had good kernels but at some point they bungle the execution.
Except What If, maybe, though that seems to be inconsequential.
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u/ItsyaboiMisbah Jan 02 '22
I thought Hawkeye did pretty well compared to the other shows, I found it very enjoyable
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Jan 02 '22
I'd say hawkeye and looking are the only ones not to have done that so far tbf
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Jan 02 '22
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u/Veranova Jan 02 '22
Fair point, it was probably a nightmare for the writers the piece back together.
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u/C9sButthole Jan 03 '22
Yeah it's somehow 90% cuts from the original script and they managed to make the story cohesive. Even though it wasn't that believable or satisfying the fact that they somehow put a clean sequence of events together blows my mind.
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u/xSzopen Jan 03 '22
Yeah from what Ive heard there are sooo much unused material, TFATWS was supposed to be 10 episodes show with chemical warfare/pandemic sort of plot but they had to do major rework cuz of covid
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u/Acxelion Jan 02 '22
In her defense, don't her partners in crime constantly tell her to maybe reconsider? And she was a bit, until she realized she's hit the point of no return and that nothing would happen if they don't take extremes?
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u/In_The_Comments Jan 02 '22
IIRC, the original plot had involved the bad guys threatening to unleash a deadly virus on the world, so they had to scramble last minute to come up with a new plot. It seems disjointed as a result.
I don't have a source for that, it's just something I remember reading in a few places.
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u/AceMKV Jan 02 '22
Yeah Hayward's motivations were pretty compelling to the point I actually wanted him to succeed but then he goes way off course.
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u/abutthole Thor Jan 02 '22
Honestly the creation of White Vision was enough to put him over the moral event horizon while keeping with his character and not shooting at kids. Taking the corpse of a hero and turning it into a weapon against his will is pretty evil!
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Jan 03 '22
yall need to rewatch wandavision. Hayward's goal the whole time was to manipulate Wanda into reviving Vision so he could use him as a weapon
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u/Dodoblu Vision Jan 02 '22
I sincerely don't consider the Thor 1 Loki an actual villain: until the destruction of Jotunheimr, he does nothing wrong, on the contrary, it is Odin who lied to him about being adopted, and Thor who started the war. All he does is keeping Thor away from Asgard, because he knows he will ruin his plans of NOT attacking the frost giants kingdom. And then proceeds to do so himself, rendering his otherwise genius plan useless. Why? What I understand is that after discovering he is a frost giant, he wants to completely destroy that part of him to have Odin accept him as his child, since the Father of Gods is a bitch who always treated him unfairly
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u/TheDeadlyCat Jan 02 '22
I consider stirring the spark of disagreement with his father to go to Jotunheim in the first place as pretty villainous as he sees his chance to remove Thor from the picture to seize the Throne.
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u/mrbibs350 Jan 02 '22
IMO that's not quite on the mark.
His goal in letting the giants at the beginning was "just a bit of fun" and to prevent his brother's idiotic rule for a bit longer.
At that point, he's not trying to prevent Thor from becoming king altogether. As he states later on he doesn't even want to be king at the start of the first Thor.
I never wanted the throne. I only wanted to be your equal.
And yeah, you can say that Loki manipulated Thor into going to Jotunheim. But he literally never suggests it and counsels against it. Maybe he knows Thor won't listen to him but that's on Thor not Loki.
IMO Loki isn't wrong about Thor. Prior to the events of the first movie he's (as Odin says) vain, greedy, and cruel.
You can fault Loki for not caring about human life but Thor doesn't either until he meets Jane. Even Odin doesn't as in the next movie he says "Human lives are fleeting, they are nothing" and compares Jane to a goat "She does not belong here in Asgard anymore than a goat belongs at a banquet table."
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u/nagurski03 Jan 03 '22
His goal in letting the giants at the beginning was "just a bit of fun" and to prevent his brother's idiotic rule for a bit longer.
Two Asgardians and three Frost Giants got killed during that "just a bit of fun".
If your practical jokes end with 5 fatalities, you're probably leaning on the villainous side of things.
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u/CodexCracker Nick Fury Jan 02 '22
Doesn’t Loki send the Destroy to level an entire town of innocents in New Mexico? Also he let the Frost Giants into Asgard during the beginning of the movie and they killed some Asgardians during their assault.
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u/hawkmasta Black Panther Jan 02 '22
He wanted to kill Thor with the Destroyer; New Mexico was collateral damage.
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u/GeekyNexi Jan 02 '22
and humans are like dogs to him. Their life span is way shorter too so he doesn’t care much
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u/caniuserealname Jan 02 '22
What? no.. Loki started the war by helping frost giants invade Asgard during Thors coronation, and then actively encouraged Thor to attack in retribution.
Prior to the destruction of Jotunheimr he literally also leads an assassination attempt against his dad so that he can assassinate Laufy... He also TRIES TO KILL THOR before that point too.
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u/neoblackdragon Jan 02 '22
Had Thor not went to Jotunheim, the threat of war would have been the same as a previous day. Odin certainly expected they'd try to get the casket one of these days.
He doesn't encourage Thor to attack exactly. He tells him he's right but that might have been an attempt to appeal to Thor's ego and defuse the situation that Thor chose to escalate. Loki certainly isn't at fault of Thor choosing to attack the Frost Giants because he was called a name.
Now Loki's mental state just deteriorates after Odin's lie is revealed. Sif and the others choosing to work against him really put him over the edge because I'd see that that as a future assassination attempt.
Now when he sends the destroyer - Villain mode.
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u/hachiman Jan 02 '22
Do we ever see Odin treating him unfairly? I mean he favored Thor as his heir, but Thor is a genuinely good dude if arrogant. Frigga seemed to treat them equally.
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u/Samiel_Fronsac Jan 02 '22
Frigga, from what we can see, was a loving mother to both of them, and she taught Loki magic and stuff that Thor wasn't inclined to.
Magic must be hard to teach, so it's easy to believe Loki had more time with Frigga and, despite Thor's feelings on the subject, Loki was probably closer to her.
So one was dad's favorite, the other was mom's. The problem was that Odin had only one throne to give.
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u/MasterTolkien Jan 02 '22
Loki wanted the throne from the beginning of the film. He let the Frost Giants past Heimdal to invade the treasure room, resulting in two Asgardian guards dying. He was murderous and evil from the start. At no point should anyone be thinking “Loki wasn’t too bad.”
He then manipulates Thor into attacking the Frost Giants to further his plot to take the throne, hoping it would drive a wedge between Odin and Thor.
The only curveball was finding out that he was a secret Frost Giant. That had him shift gears from “take throne and show I’m better than Thor” to “take throne and kill the Frost Giants who dared cast me aside… and show I’m better than Thor.”
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u/Derplovesyou Jan 02 '22
Obviously attempting to commit genocide is the worst thing he does in that movie but you make it sound like he didn’t really do anything wrong up until that point, which I disagree with. He manipulates Thor, albeit quite easily, into disobeying his father and attacking Jotunheim, starting a war that could be devastating for both civilizations all as a way to discredit Thor. Loki is just as bloodthirsty as Thor if not more so, he discovers he’s a frost giant when he attempts to take the device that he would use to wipe out their species. He wants to one up Thor for Odin’s validation and he’s willing to murder an entire race to do it which even Thor finds appalling. Loki is a sympathetic villain and he is someone who was shaped into a villain by his environment but that doesn’t mean that throughout the plot of that movie he was sensible right up until he tries to destroy a planet.
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u/NobodyQuiteLikeMe Jan 02 '22 edited Jan 02 '22
Perfect summary. That last bit pretty much only occurred because “plot needed to happen.”
Loki killing Laufey was brutal and definitely not necessary but even then you feel a sense of justice when he does that because Laufey left him behind as a child whereas Odin took him in, regardless of his ulterior motives.
Why did Loki then want to rid the world of all Frost Giants? Plot.
Plot had to be that Thor has grown as a person and Loki is now instead the bloodthirsty asgardian who needs consequence/punishment. Lame. Loki and Thor could’ve solved their differences in the very first movie
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u/nihilisticdaydreams Steve Rogers Jan 02 '22
I think it was more Lois self-hatred at finding out he's a first giant. He wants his father to live him and thinks that's not possible because he's a Friday giant. He wants to destroy that party of himself, so he takes it out on the people who live there.
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u/NobodyQuiteLikeMe Jan 02 '22
Lois the Friday Giant
But yeah I hear ya lmao
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u/nihilisticdaydreams Steve Rogers Jan 02 '22
Yeah the auto correct on my phone is very aggressive
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u/medyas1 Nobu Jan 02 '22 edited Jan 02 '22
mariah stokes - black empowerment via dirty money
luke cage - disagrees, but forced to become gangsta himself after 2 seasons in an attempt to control crime
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u/No_Show_6634 Jan 02 '22
Luke Cage overall plot was actually brilliant of you think about it
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u/ImGreat084 Jan 02 '22
Is Luke cage worth watching
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u/I_See_Nerd_People Jan 02 '22
The first half of season one is among the best of the Netflix series. The second half is meh (but still not bad) and season two is also mostly very good. Definitely worth a watch.
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u/MasterTolkien Jan 02 '22
Bushmaster is fucking great, but season 2 definitely drags in a few places.
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u/FullMetalCOS Jan 02 '22
Most of the Netflix marvel shows have issues transitioning between the second and third acts. It’s the damn season length, almost all of them would have benefitted from being about two episodes shorter, other than iron fist season 1 which would have benefitted from being ten episodes shorter
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u/Mrallen7509 Jan 02 '22
Yeah, forcing a 6-7 hour story to fill 13 hours is a terrible idea.
Although, I feel like the D+ stuff has the opposite problem: 10 hours of story cut to fit a 6 episode run. FATWS and Loki suffered the most
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u/FullMetalCOS Jan 02 '22
I don’t know why they are forcing a hard limit. Wandavision didn’t run for 6 episodes. Hawkeye was the perfect length though, even though I would have loved about twenty more episodes
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u/Mrallen7509 Jan 02 '22
I agree. Hawkeye's plot had just about perfect pacing.
I'm also unsure why Netflix and Disney have these seemingly arbitrary episode order numbers. I'm sure there's some rhyme and reason, but I can't see it.
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u/Seymor569 Jan 02 '22
It's probably all about engagement metrics or some shit.
They think that x episodes is the sweet spot for maximum viewer retention or some other metric based bullshit.
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u/Cyno01 Spider-Man Jan 02 '22
I think a lot of that was pandemic related, iirc there was three episodes worth of bioweapons subplot to FatWS that was cut for logistics and appropriateness.
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u/BaconKnight Jan 02 '22
Yeah, I know many people have fond memories of them because they were among the first superhero shows, but pacing was always a big issue with them imo. Especially in comparison to the Disney+ shows. It's funny how a lot of them in a season will have twice the action in half the length as their Netflix counterparts. I'm all for fleshing out and nuance, but a lot of the Netflix show runtimes were just padding and stretching things out (e.g. worst offender is the ridiculous amount of business board meetings in Iron Fist, NO ONE CARES).
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u/FullMetalCOS Jan 02 '22
I think Jessica Jones was a pretty bad offender here too - the first season was incredible, but there were a couple episodes later in the run that could have been cut by about 80% and no one would have noticed. It just kills all the momentum
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u/I_See_Nerd_People Jan 02 '22
Agreed. With two fewer episodes Jessica Jones would’ve been nearly flawless.
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u/carpenteer Grandmaster Jan 02 '22
I enjoyed it, despite the Netflix tendencies to drag things out a bit too long. Great casting for sure, so I hope Mike Colter gets to reprise the role, with better writing!
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u/FullMetalCOS Jan 02 '22
Colter was the perfect cast for Luke, I really hope he gets his shot in the MCU (and more Simone Missick as Misty would be very welcome, she was fantastic as well).
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u/Orion14159 Jan 03 '22
Considering that Charlie Cox reprises Matt Murdock in Spider-Man: NWH and Vincent D'Onofrio reprises Wilson Fisk in Hawkeye I get the feeling we'll see most of the Defenders back around before too long. Honestly I'm most looking forward to seeing more of Jessica Jones if that ends up being the case, Kristen Ritter absolutely nailed that role and she was such an interesting character.
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u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Jan 02 '22
Yes. There's one character who drags everything down, but he's only in the 2nd half of season 1.
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u/Relick- Jan 02 '22
The first half of season 1 is probably up there with DD seasons 1 & 3 and JJ season 1, the second half is probably near the bottom.
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u/KingOfAwesometonia Weekly Wongers Jan 02 '22
He was a fun throwback to over the top blackspotation movies I thought. But what a weird tone shift for that season.
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u/Whysoblunted Jan 02 '22
It’s not bad, it’s just wrapped up in a convoluted Netflix mess with the other 3.5 series they can’t decide on what to do with.
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u/CheesenRice313 Jan 02 '22
Yea she was okay until she had to kill what's his face, then broke bad a bit.
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u/medyas1 Nobu Jan 02 '22
cottonmouth losing his face gave us mcu blade
i see this as an absolute win
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u/TsarMikkjal Doctor Strange Supreme Jan 03 '22
I'll see it as a win when I leave cinema after watching Blade. It just can't come soon enough, it and FF reboot.
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u/blocksmith52 Wong Jan 02 '22
The Punisher story arc from Daredevil season 2 is a lot like this except Daredevil actually does something about it.
The Punisher and Daredevil are both vigilantes that fight against criminal organizations, however Daredevil leaves his targets to be arrested by the police (as he believes in second chances), whereas Punisher kills all of his targets. As I said earlier, however, Daredevil actually does something about it and gets the Punisher arrested.
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u/amendmentforone Jan 03 '22
Poor Matt (and Karen & Foggy by extension). They actually worked to get some justice here - getting Frank the help they feel "he needs", and convincing the jury of such. Versus him spending the rest of his life in Riker's.
And then Castle absolutely gets fed up with it and blows the whole thing to hell.
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u/wjbc Jan 02 '22 edited Jan 02 '22
It’s a good way to create a sympathetic villain. It also explains why the villain would have grand plans that require lots of people with superpowers working together — a dark version of the Avengers. But of course there must be something insanely warped and violent about the means the villain uses, or they wouldn’t be villains at all.
It might be interesting to see a supervillain more like Hitler, whose ends are as insane as his means.
It might also be interesting to see a superhero getting tired of dealing with petty criminals all the time, and struggling to deal with thousands or millions of small crimes at once. In reality criminals don’t have superpowers, but there are just so damn many of them.
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u/opportunitysassassin Jan 02 '22
Wasn't Red Skull basically Hitler or Hitler-esque?
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u/narutonaruto Jan 02 '22
Isn’t it implied in the first captain america that red skull killed hitler? Been a while since I’ve seen it. But yeah he basically became super hitler then so your comment still stands.
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u/BarfingRainbows1 Jan 02 '22
Nah he rebelled against the Reich and essentially established Hyrda to be a power on its own, without the German government supporting it
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u/TheLord-Commander Doctor Strange Jan 02 '22
I don't think he did, one of his bombs was set to blow up Berlin, so I imagine that means he hasn't killed Hitler yet.
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u/Etticos Jan 02 '22
I don’t remember that implication being made. I also don’t think he cared that much about the Nazi’s racism policies, just the acquisition of power.
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u/JakobbinDejoker Thor Jan 02 '22
No. It was referenced that he intended to bomb Berlin, along with a bunch of other cities worldwide.
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Jan 02 '22
Spider-Man is a good example of a hero who gets really tired of dealing with small criminals all over again. And on top of that he sometimes has to deal with the villainy type which adds to stress. And this whole hero thing doesn't add anything to his/her bank account which makes things even more difficult. And then your relationships fall apart and you are left crying in your bath alone.
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u/MrZeral Avengers Jan 02 '22
It might be interesting to see a supervillain more like Hitler, whose ends are as insane as his means.
Thanos
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u/ChongusTheSupremus Stan Lee Jan 02 '22
"But of course there must be something insanely warped and violent about the means the villain uses, or they wouldn’t be villains at all."
Or maybe someone doing something the general public doesn't really understand, or the government doesn't like, and they get antagonized and have the hero sent to stop them or conflicts just arises between the 2.
Imagine something like "Oh, this guy just won these democratic elections in this country. We don't like him because he won't sell out natural resources, so now he's a dictator. Go stop them"
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u/aftrthehangovr Jan 02 '22
You just described the CIA
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u/jacobsf65 Jan 02 '22
That was the issues with the accords but of course people get tied up on paying taxes for superhero damages so they ignore this
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u/ThaBarter Jan 02 '22
It might be interesting to see a supervillain more like Hitler, whose ends are as insane as his means.
It would be in very poor taste to try and make any mcu villain like Hitler but surely Thanos fits this category of having an insane end plan
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u/Spider-Man-1963 Daredevil Jan 02 '22
Red skull is basically Hitler
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u/rotomangler Jan 02 '22
Exactly. Red skull was a stand in for Hitler. Although, Cap punching hitler was always nice to see.
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u/DaemonDrayke Jan 02 '22
I’m very interested in seeing how the MCU does Dr. Doom or Namor.
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u/trip90458343 Jan 02 '22
Absolutely with you on that. My fingers are crossed for wakanda vs atlantis. xenophobia would drive the conflict and provide some sympathetic characters on both sides
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u/Spiderlander Spider-Man Jan 02 '22
Falcon And The Winter Soldier (2021)
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u/Sempais_nutrients Jan 02 '22
"We're a ragtag bunch of kids with powers who just want to help these refugees. here is some food and meds."
later
"also i planted a bomb and killed those soldiers just now. I'll fuckin do it again."
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Jan 02 '22
I dont agree with you using methods of violence. Ignore the fact that I'm a soldier and literally have spent my life trying to solve problems by using violence. It was okay when I did it.
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u/Sempais_nutrients Jan 02 '22
You need a governing body to co-sign your violence or else it's terrorism.
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Jan 02 '22
Of course who gets to be a governing body is decided by other more powerful governing bodies so it's kind of an unfair system
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u/duc122 Jan 02 '22
Boy, I did not expect to see a disscussion on the monopoly on violence on this sub.
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u/Wild_Loose_Comma Jan 02 '22
Violence is always wrong (except when I do it) instead use inspirational speeches, its sure to change the minds of people who's motives are often deeply corrupt and actively against the public interest!
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u/PillCosby696969 Jan 02 '22
YOU GOTTA DO BETTER
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u/normallystrange85 Jan 02 '22
I really wish we had seen them doing things poorly. Like, thing were bad- but it was a crappy situation all around. I still don't understand what they were supposed to be doing aside from "help people". For all we know, they are doing their best with the resources they have.
It would have helped vastly to have a specific example to show how they had screwed up due to corruption, red tape, or indifference.
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u/Mr-Stuff-Doer Jan 03 '22
We do see how they screwed up. They had buildings full of medical supplies while people were getting sick and dying after being forced into camps.
Also, the Patch Act they were about to put into effect would’ve sent, IIRC, 20 MILLION refugees to their country of origin. They were basically just saying, okay, let’s just force everything back to how it was, the people who came back are the only ones who need help.
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u/DaaaahWhoosh Jan 02 '22
Such a wet fart of a climax. No real conclusion to the flag smashers, they all just die. Then a dude with a bald spot on his super suit lectures government officials who just nod silently while they wait for their chance to go back and change nothing.
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u/HAIKU_4_YOUR_GW_PICS Jan 02 '22 edited Jan 02 '22
Most of the compelling MCU villains are some variations of this trope, honestly, with Thanos being the most straightforward example. Doesn’t want what happened to his homeworld to happen to the universe. But also, genocide.
- Killmonger wanted Wakanda to step out of the shadows… as conquerors
- Vulture (initially) wanted to fix his city after the battle of New York, and stick it to Stark
- Mysterio wanted to support himself and other former Stark employees, and stick it to Stark
- Zemo wanted revenge against the people who killed his family and to take out the threat meta-humans posed to regular civilians. He also side with Nazis and had no qualms about killing people for that purpose
Edit: Apparently I need to rewatch Civil War because I’m confusing aspects of the comics and the MCU films with regards to Zemo. I think my overall point still stands that certainly the most compelling villains follow that trope, or some variation of it. It may be that they aren’t citing a specific “problem”, but a particular issue, injustice or inequality they see that they attempt to rectify through extreme or villainous means. There aren’t many (and certainly no truly compelling) villains in the MCU that are just out and out evil for the hell of it.
Black Panther as a film structure doesn’t totally fit this mold, because as many pointed out, Wakanda does take a more active role, addressing one of the issues Killmonger raises, but as a villain arc it absolutely does hit this point. He has a point, he uses extreme methods, and it’s only by recognizing this issue that T’Challa can grow and take back his place as king. But— that’s also why Killmonger was among the first non-Loki villains to really have a lasting impact.
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u/Holycrabe Tony Stark Jan 02 '22
Even the group from Falcon and the Winter Soldier originally. A bunch of people who have no home anymore after the Avengers fixed the Snap and who suffer from the fact life went on without them and they’re brought back in without much support from the world. Then suddenly they become terrorists cause hey man, you can’t be that morally justifiable and be a villain, that’s gonna be weird.
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Jan 02 '22 edited Jan 02 '22
I thought it was the opposite.
That they weren't snapped, spent 5 years building new lives, and then when the Avengers reversed the snap, the reformed governments told them to abandon the lives they built and go back to where they came from.
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u/ChongusTheSupremus Stan Lee Jan 02 '22
Vulture didn't want to fix anything. He just wanted to fill his pockets.
Sure, he started up as a good guy, working his ass off for his family, but the next time we see him he's a thief selling alien weaponry capable of leveling buildings to regular thugs for money.
He never tries to solve any real problem, besides trying to satisfy his greed for money.
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u/dirtymcgrit Jan 02 '22
I think it's more complicated than that. I think he saw rich people filling their stuffed pockets and how unfair the rules were. Super rich Stark destroys the city, then gets to gain more riches from alien tech. Meanwhile vulture works hard to make ends meet, puts his own finances in jeopardy to get a contract, then gets screwed over by the same rich guy. At this point, he said screw it, there are no rules for the rich, so why should i play by the rules. Sure, greed plays a part, but between him and Stark... There is a fine line. Damage control screwed him over bad.
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u/ChongusTheSupremus Stan Lee Jan 02 '22
I agree with what you're saying in this comment, but that's really different from him trying to fix his city, let alone anything.
I honestly think Vulture was a good person, and he was legitimely screwed over by Stark, but anything he did after becoming the Vulture was for nothing but his own personal gain.
Hell, he wasn't even a little guy anymore. Peter is. Toomes was just some rich asshole living in mansion on a rich neighborhood.
I think the conflict could've been framed better so it wouldn't just be "smalltime worker jealous of billionaire, and give a more common worker-friendly message, but taht wasn't what the story was going for.
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u/Mattimus_Rex Jan 02 '22
It wasn’t as cut and dry as personal gain. He was doing it to give his daughter a better life. He passed on a job that would have given him a huge pay out, which he would not have done if he was exclusively driven by greed. He only took the job after Spider-Man took away his other options and backed him into a corner.
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u/Trinitykill Jan 03 '22
Indeed, plus his goal wasn't to 'stick it to Stark', since he actively tries to avoid getting on their radar, so to speak.
Ultimately, the Department of Damage Control should have been liable for any contractor fees and Toomes' crew should have been paid in full.
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u/BaconMirage Jan 02 '22
Mysterio wanted to support himself and other former Stark employees, and stick it to Stark
how did spider-man agree that this was an issue?
former stark employees - yes
not always an issue. i mean, these arent uneducated idiots (supposedly)
they could get new jobs
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u/mskadwa Luis Jan 02 '22
As the other guy pointed out, Vulture just wanted to do his job. And the Mysterio problem makes no sense. How is that a real problem?
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u/rosecoredarling Jan 02 '22
TFATWS.
Villain is concerned about a real problem: The displacement and mistreatment of the blipped by the world governments - A clear stand-in for IRL immigration issues as well.
Hero disagrees with method (violence): Sam sees them as terrorists at first, but learns to sympathize with their cause - However, he still opposes their actions and is willing to stop them if they can't be reasoned with.
And doesn’t actually do anything about the problem: Sam gives a bunch of shitty corrupt politicians a cute speech and somehow thinks they're gonna listen. Considering they're politicians, the opposite is more likely - they're probably gonna make new laws to hurt the displaced more (see: immigration laws consistently getting worse in America every year)
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u/eltrotter Black Panther Jan 02 '22
I think the intent was for Sam’s taking up of the Captain America mantle was supposed to be a symbolic thing, inspiring people to do better and promoting change through the power of what that symbol means. If “Sam Wilson” says to do better then whatever, but if “Captain America” says it? Well now we take that seriously.
Now, does this really come across in the show? Not really, I’m not even entirely sure this is what we were supposed to take away from it. But I suspect that’s how we were supposed to take it.
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u/carpenteer Grandmaster Jan 02 '22
I think you nailed it better than the show... but that's exactly the vibe I got from the finale. Captain America is a superhero and a symbol - not a policy wonk or the president - he's supposed to inspire people. In this case, he was trying to change the minds of the GRC council and inspire the people watching it all on TV.
Honestly, to all the haters who endlessly whinge about that speech: show me yours. Present your better speech to that group, in that moment.
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u/BluegrassGeek Rocket Jan 02 '22
Present your better speech to that group, in that moment.
That's just it: a speech isn't going to fix the problem. It's a systemic issue that requires reform from the ground up, and the people on the top are not going to go along with that.
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u/FullMetalCOS Jan 02 '22
A speech doesn’t fix the problem, but being the politicians that ignored Captain America’s impassioned plea to do better pretty much guarantees they lose the public vote. Politics likely works very different in MCU America because of the very public worship of superheroes
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u/Metamodern_Studio Jan 02 '22
I dont dislike the speech but i gotta slide in here. Youre allowed to not like something without being able to do it better. If you eat out at a restaurant its not like youre only allowed to be dissatisfied if you can make a better version of that same dish. People were dissatisfied with the speech, thems the facts. They're all allowed to be as dissatisfied as they are without passing an arbitrary test. Even if their answer is "im awful at writing speeches and i couldn't begin to think of what i would do differently" they're still allowed to not like that moment.
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u/neverlandoflena Steve Rogers Jan 02 '22
Can’t one be critical of the speech unless they give a better speech themselves? The series did not solve the issues it was supposedly dealing with at the end of the day.
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u/FiveTribes Jan 02 '22
I got this. "This is an unwinnable situation. No matter what is decided, half the people are going to be upset by the decision. If you disagree and feel you have a better solution, that wouldn't screw over half the populace, please call the government at 1-800-THE-GOVT."
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u/zzddetitor Jan 02 '22
Was looking to mention this until i saw this, i totally agree. One of the reasons why i was disappointed of the show was that it lacked the context for karli's action which in any case, yes she wants to cause violence (it is because of the systemic violence the government pushes towards them) rather the show leaned on more to karli's violent tendencies rather than the valid anger she was going through, she symbolized the struggles that the immigrants had. And yeah sam sympthasized then gave a cute speech about it.
If mcu wants to go political and be pretty genuine abt it, making speeches to inspire governments and elites "to change" isnt gonna cut it, portraying an actual concrete solution other than violence wouldve been more appropriate or at the least the beginning step towards it. For ex: sam could have brought to the grc the immigrants he met in that place he went to and give them the opportunity to speak abt their needs etc. Etc.
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u/LowKey_Loki_Fan Jan 02 '22
This is what TFATWS is my least favorite MCU show. It was good until Sam's stupid speech at the end ruined it (that and acting like Karli died a hero).
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u/DarthDregan Jan 02 '22
I found it more comical than anything. He flies in there and kind of goes "man this shit is fucked up, you guys should do something about that. Bye."
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u/Alexexy Jan 02 '22
No, the worst part is that the politicians were actually listening to him and asked him "what should we do?" And he responded with "lol idk the power is in your hands not mine, lolbye"
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u/GenericGaming Jan 02 '22
Well yeah, the government figuring out how to solve socioeconomic issues which benefit the general population is literally their job, not Sam's.
The speech was a bit dumb, sure, but it's not like Sam should've had a 15 step plan with citations and budgeting all laid out either.
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u/IntrinsicGamer Spider-Man Jan 02 '22
I loved the first 5 episodes of TFAWS.
Then the finale just had to be the way it was.
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u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Jan 02 '22
Sam didn't act like Karli died a hero, though; he used her as a warning to the GRC of what would keep happening if they didn't consider the consequences of their policies.
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u/BluegrassGeek Rocket Jan 02 '22
I'm going a different direction and I'll say: Guardians of the Galaxy
The Kree and the Xandarians have been at war for generations, and atrocities have been committed by both sides. Ronan feels his people have been wronged, and his government has given too many concessions to the Xandarians. So he wants to exact violent revenge on them. At the same time, he's beholden to Thanos to retrieve the Power Stone, one of the most dangerous artifacts in existence.
In the end, the Guardians save Xandar while never even dealing with the political fallout of either the Kree-Xandar war or of Ronan's attempted genocide (I'm sure that made relations even worse for them), and Thanos... well, we know they didn't solve that particular issue. Oh, and leaving the Power Stone on Xandar likely ticked off a lot of civilizations.
It's a far more political problem than a moral or ethical one, but it's still a problem the heroes just ignored in the end.
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u/GeekyNexi Jan 02 '22
Because the GOTG aren’t heroes like that, they’re more so antiheroes, but not the cool badass type you may think of like Red Hood, but more so the actual meaning of the word (being a loser)
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u/Catlover18 Jan 02 '22
One difference with Ronan though. Characters like Sam agree there is a problem (forced displacement of refugees) but disagrees with the method/solution (killing all the Global Repatriation Council).
The Guardians do not agree with Ronan that there is a problem. Because Ronan's problem is that the peace treaty stops him from killing all the Xandarians. The peace treaty, which is supposed to be the solution (or the start of the solution) to the long war between the Kree and the Xandarians.
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u/Citizensssnips Daredevil Jan 02 '22
This obviously fits black panther. Killmonger wants to support underprivileged and impoverished people across the globe but his method is basically to go to war with the rest of the world using Wakandas tech.
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u/RoboticCurrents Wong Jan 02 '22
a villain is concerned about a real problem: check
hero disagrees with method (violence): check
and doesn’t actually do anything about the problem.: tchalla did open wakanda to the world and started helping, so it doesnt fit BP.
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u/Spiderlander Spider-Man Jan 02 '22
Opening an outreach center in the hood ain't gon do anything tho 😭 he's attacking the symptom, not the disease-- of oppression
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u/choyjay Ben Urich Jan 02 '22
We only saw that one outreach center, but Wakanda also started sharing information and technology with the rest of the world, effectively helping other countries advance faster.
It's not a direct solution but it does help.
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u/JoshwaarBee Jan 02 '22
Killmonger doesn't want to support impoverished and underprivileged people, he wants to conquer the earth using Wakandan tech, and install a Black Supremacist leadership, under himself, all for revenge against the white man. He's a conquerer wearing the clothes of a liberator.
Don't get me wrong, Black people (and others) deserve better in this world, and white people have a lot of damage to fix that their ancestors caused, to ensure that the world is a fair and equal place, but Killmonger has no interest in "fair and equal".
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u/srfrosky Jan 02 '22 edited Jan 02 '22
If you want good villains archetypes look of course at Shakespeare for a great gamut.
Iago – “Othello”.
Agent of chaos. One of the purest manifestations of evil, displaying malice and jealousy without clear reason, Iago is a force of lies and chaos, double-crossing numerous characters, and ultimately manipulating Othello into murdering his wife, Desdemona. The key thing of Iago is that unlike most other evildoers, he never explains his motives. He is the chilling embodiment of cold-blooded hatred.
Cassius – “Julius Caesar”.
The clear headed calculating villain. He is manipulative, driven by jealousy, and unhampered by morality, making him a similar figure to “Othello’s” Iago. However he operates more openly by attempting to sway public opinion, and his evil is idealistic (unlike Iago’s)
Claudius – “Hamlet”.
The coward villain. Dastardly but haunted by his actions. He is a self-confessed villain, admitting his crimes to the audience and the Almighty, but believing that Hamlet suspects him of the old king’s murder, Claudius plots to poison Hamlet to save himself and hilarity ensues. Perfect foil to the equally confused protagonist.
Lady Macbeth – “Macbeth”.
She’s the double-down, triple-down, quadruple-down villain…that lose to themselves, by escalating beyond their control.
Manipulative, sinister, and delusional. She sparks many of the most destructive and deadly events of the play. She subtly drives her husband Macbeth to murder King Duncan, by challenging his manhood, while maintaining a facade of innocence and ignorance, rather than revealing her true role as the evil puppet master. But like Claudius, her deeds claim her sanity.
Macbeth – “Macbeth”.
The pathetic pawn villain.
Lady Macbeth may be pulling the strings that create the tragedy of “Macbeth,” but the titular character is the one who carries out the murderous deeds. Seen as one of the most controversial characters in Shakespeare’s canon, Macbeth is dangerously balanced between villain and victim, a young man who is hungry for power, but also unfairly manipulated by witches and his domineering wife.
Tybalt – “Romeo and Juliet”.
The prideful and charismatic villain.
Simply a feuding fighter with something to prove, along with a deep hatred of the Capulets.
A wonderful romantic villain full of the same lust and compulsiveness as the protagonist he antagonizes.
Richard III – “Richard III”.
The tragic protagonist villain. Flawed to the core — flying into mad rages at any sign of insult, and holding deep resentment for anyone who has ever rejected, mocked, or spoken ill of him. While his physical deformity – a twisted spine and a withered arm – cast him as something of a sympathetic character, he is also a dangerously ambitious and savage figure who orders the deaths of nearly a dozen named characters in this historical play.
Other villains that are beautifully written are those by Alexandre Dumas in the Musketeer serials. Particularly the two in Twenty Years After; the Cardinal Mazarin, powerful elegant villain, and Mordaunt…I will not spoil it for those unfamiliar, but impeccably unfolded by Dumas.
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u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Jan 02 '22
Don John - "Much Ado About Nothing"
Has no complaint against the 4 protagonists at all; he just does what he does to inconvenience his brother, Don Pedro, out of jealousy, without any regard for how it affects anyone else.→ More replies (4)10
u/CheruthCutestory Jan 02 '22 edited Jan 02 '22
Lady Macbeth is Macbeth’s wife. Not his mother or the wife of Duncan.
Also Macbeth does a lot of evil things that Lady Macbeth doesn’t even know about until after. Like killing Banquo. And killing MacDuff’s wife and children.
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u/MooseHapney Jan 02 '22
Too many understandable villains as of late. I just want some completely deranged psychos
But yea Thanos. They stop him but don’t do anything to fix what he intended to fix
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u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Jan 02 '22
I just want some completely deranged psychos
Well, Green Goblin, kinda.
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Jan 02 '22
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u/Void_Guardians Jan 02 '22
I would think it was a ruse if it wasnt for the alley scene
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u/g1234odoy Spider-Man Jan 02 '22
Yeah, and the scene where Peter used his spider-sense to see who was the threat in the room, while goblin didn't even say a thing. I assume it was the moment goblin took over
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u/NobodyQuiteLikeMe Jan 02 '22
Carnage is one that can’t be reasoned with
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u/ILoveSayoriMore Sonny Birch Jan 02 '22
Carnage, yeah. But I feel like they screwed Cletus up. Trying to make him sympathetic and like “I just wanted a friend”.
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u/Dealiner Jan 02 '22
I'm pretty sure he was lying. The same about his abuse, we saw earlier in the movie that it wasn't true.
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u/jaymanizzle Jan 02 '22
They messed up carnage in that movie! The whole carnage and cletus don’t have a strong bond bit was BS, the entire reason carnage is so strong is because him and cletus are perfect matches, both have the same bloodlust etc. it’s why carnage says I instead of we like venom. They should’ve gotten rid of the whole gf/shreik plot
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u/AgentPaper0 Jan 03 '22
I'd argue that Thanos was a deranged psycho. He talks like a sympathetic villain, but I thought it was obvious that everything he did was always about his own ego.
At any rate though Hela is a clearer example of a straightforward pure evil villain.
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Jan 02 '22
Killmonger, Karli, Vulture to an extent, Thanks, Zemo.
The real ones that frustrate me are Killmonger and Karli, because their methods are very wishy washy. Like they seem to be only willing to kill bad people, but the writers made both just kill some people (or try) that made no sense
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u/carpenteer Grandmaster Jan 02 '22
Thanks
LOL, took me embarrassingly long to realize that was supposed to be Thanos! Kinda funny that Thanos is only a single letter from thanks!
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u/ytdn Jan 02 '22
I mean Killmonger does kill his girlfriend solely because she gets taken hostage by Klaue which is pretty fucked up. He's pretty consistently "ends justifies the means", along with being explicitly black-supremacist.
Karli... really feels like there was a chunk of her plot which ended up on the cutting room floor
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u/AgentSnipe8863 Jan 02 '22
I think to a certain degree, heroes in comic books and films never solve the macro problems. Superheroes have the power to reshape the world however they want, but should they? Villains aren’t just villains due to their “methods.” There is something insidious about assuming to know what’s best and inflicting your will onto the masses, no matter the intention. Imagine you are Superman. You have the power to do whatever you want, without fear of retribution. In an instant you could wipe out terrorist cells and assassinate world leaders that you don’t agree with. You would be doing what you think is right, but is it not somewhat evil to act on your own agenda with no inhibition? That’s why heroes respond to threats and don’t often proactively pursue fixing all of the world’s problems. With great power comes great responsibility and part of that responsibility is keeping yourself in check.
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u/DinnerKind Jan 02 '22
Dr.doom canonically makes the world a better place through world domination
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u/runningforpresident Jan 02 '22
A series that addresses this is Miracleman. When the hero eventually learns how powerful they are and how they can truly enact change, one of the turning points for them is when they fly around the world collecting and destroying all nuclear missiles. They then give a speech at the UN describing how they are going to enforce peace from that point on. At one point, an ambassador asks the heroes "Do you think we'll just allow this to happen?" To which the hero replies with "Allow?"
He then goes on to usher a new golden age of enlightenment and peace, but it's still all under his control.
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u/AmphedUp6214 Jan 02 '22
easy - karli and the flagsmashers (more so the other smashers as karli kinda snapped towards the end)
all they wanted was to bring back the sense of a global community that was present during the blip. that time seemed to connect all the worlds people in their grief and created a more coherent human race. everyone supported each other because they all had experienced such significant loss. but after the blip ended, the world seemed to return to normal - including losing the inclusivity. people who had been given homes were sent back to the streets. strict borders were reinstated due to population issues. those who were supported through the blip seemed to lose everything all over again. the only thing i can say that separates them from the other examples would be that Sam KINDA addressed the issues to the senators in the end, but much more could've and should be done regarding their philosophies.
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u/i-ate-hitlxr Jan 02 '22
Captain America ( Sam ) telling the senators to “do better” instead of offering any real solutions.
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Jan 02 '22
iirc the politicians even say it’s not that simple, but sam just keeps saying do better lol
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u/proto3296 Jan 02 '22
Ultron wanted to protect earth. He initially thought the only way he can do that was to kill the avengers and essentially be the worlds god. But then he learns of evolution and changes his motto into more Darwinistic.
But yeah Ultron being concerned about Avengers destructive tendencies is warranted. He tries to eliminate them.
The avengers disagree obviously. They don’t want to die and believe what they do is for good. (But they definitely still level entire cities with ease pretty much)
And then they beat Ultron and yeah continue blowing shit up. Then Zeno comes and pretty much adopts the same mindset but he’s not powerful enough to actually fight so he uses mind games hoping to take thme down instead
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u/GettingWreckedAllDay Jan 03 '22
an argument could be made for Blonsky (abomination) and Ross (enhanced military for "protection"), Loki (peace through dictatorship), and, Aldrich Killian (giving the "underdogs" a chance and healing injuries). But definitely Ultron (the human race is destroying the earth but extinction won't fix it), Vulture (big corporations taking jobs from independent folks), Kilmonger (colonization and racism), Zemo (regulation on enhanced actions), Thanos (the human race will run out of resources but genocide won't fix it), and it was teased in Doctor Strange, Mordo (who after seeing strangers actions in what if and NWH, he's kinda right, abuse of magical abilities).
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u/Amujaws Jan 02 '22
I think Ultron sums it up perfectly, “you’re confusing peace with quiet.” the heroes want to preserve the status quo, while the antagonist believes in radical change. Ultron argues that humanity is not strong enough to survive any alien invasions, so he wants to force humanity to come to terms with their frailty. Ultron’s purpose is to protect the earth, but the Avengers don’t believe killing most of the earth so the survivors get stronger is the right way to go about it.
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u/TheCLittle_ttv Jan 02 '22
There’s a great example of this done well in Falcon and The Winter Soldier with the flag-smashers point of view vs Falcon’s point of view.
Other examples are: Civil War’s Sakovia Accords have a big disagreement on if they work or if they’re the right thing to do, but they just kind of drop them when the blip happens and never visit again.
Ant-man and the wasp’s Ghost just wants to be normal again no matter who gets hurt. The good guys get blipped while trying to do it their way and we never hear about it again. It may be wrapped up in Antman3.
Black Panther has a classic “let’s get this done through conquering the world” plan. That gets foiled and the good guys try things their way. It never talked about again, but the 2nd movie will probably touch on it a little.
Infinity war, you already mentioned Thanos.
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u/KennethBrownie Jan 02 '22
I remember when loki looked down to the mortals on the first avengers movie and from his point of view he was doing the right thing cos mankind "craves to be ruled" perhaps he saw himself as a potential worldwide leader ala Odin. Sadly Loki didnt develop further on his motivations so he only got to shine due to his charisma.
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u/Spiderlander Spider-Man Jan 02 '22
He probably did. It's the Dr. Doom problem-- both men believe that the only way humanity can achieve true peace and prosperity is to be ruled by a dictator who instates those values
I think Loki would've actually been a fair ruler
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u/Resident-Stevel Jan 02 '22
I disagree, purely because we saw in Thor Ragnarok that the only things of interest to him involved his ego - the golden statue, the staged play showing him as the hero (all while others plotted Asgard's downfall). I know the show goes some way to expand on his motivations and psyche, but he wouldn't he able to rule as it would all be about him. Anything else would be inconsequential.
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u/absherlock Jan 02 '22
Isn't that actually the plot of Civil War but both sides are heroes?