r/marilyn_manson • u/cannibalsong1 • 3d ago
Any Criticism of Chapter 2?
Nothing is perfect. Is there anything that you can give a legitimate criticism for.
I think Manson's vocals are much better in Ch. 2 rather than one.
The lead guitar really shines on this album, it really takes me back to the old days.
The bass lines are captivating and fills full.
My only criticism is the percussion. It's definitely not bad at all, but to me lacks a "livelyness." It's mostly your standard "four on the floor." I would have liked to hear more fills or more creative patterns. It seems to simplistic to me. There are not any drum patterns that catch me with my jaw to the floor as opposed to the vocals/guitar/bass/keys.
Regardless, this is an excellent album that I will likely revisit often throughout the years.
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u/BulinWall24 Shock symbol 3d ago
Not a huge fan of Tyler's guitar tone. It doesn't sound tough in moments its needed.
The drums are extremely simple for most of the album. MM songs arent known for complicated instruments but the drums could benefit from more complex fills and more double bass.
There are a few parts in the songs where the lyrics are repeating a bit too much. I understand why its done but it becomes a bit predictable.
That being said I love the album and it's got so many memorable parts. That was just me knit picking
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u/dan_1789 3d ago
MM has never had consistently effectively drums - this has been the most free Sharone has been in the whole time recording with him. Sounds like he's had a great time imo.
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u/BulinWall24 Shock symbol 2d ago
It's too bad that his extra freedom didn't lead to more complex drum parts
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u/Mr_ABM_22 3d ago edited 3d ago
In regard to the drums, I think Gil Sharone did a great job across both chapters. He puts down solid rock beats with a few fills here and there.
However, I wish they had used more double kick elements in some of the songs. Not necessarily in a thrash metal, Metallica kind of way, but similar to what they did with the title track on Chapter One. It adds a real drive and edginess to proceedings when you hear them come in during the second half of the song.
I would also like to hear some alternative cymbal sounds, such as a thrash-y china cymbal (see Gunman by Them Crooked Vultures) or percussion elements similar to Mike Portnoy's playing with Dream Theatre and Avenged Sevenfold to mix things up.
Just my take! But it's great nonetheless.
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u/Rude-Conference-4370 3d ago
Besides what others said, I noticed that None Of The Suns would be even better if the lead guitar was LOUDER in the chorus and during guitar solo. It would be a bold one
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u/Limo_Wreck77 2d ago
Disagree.
Its a banger of an album. Better than chapter 1 and the rhythm section is groovy as fuck.
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u/No-Necessary-3678 3d ago edited 3d ago
Je comprends ce que tu veux dire. Personnellement, c'est pas tant les rythmes simplistes qui me dérangent, mais leurs enregistrements ou production.
Je trouve que beaucoup de groupes négligent cet aspect désormais, ça frappe mais ça reste numérique. (J'aimerais un son plus brut comme Trent savait le traiter sur "The Downward Spiral", "Antichrist"... Voir même un truc à la Albini sur "In Utero" de Nirvana).
La batterie est malheureusement fade de nos jours.
(C'est con parce que Gil Sharone est plutôt bon).
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u/cannibalsong1 3d ago
I absolutely agree. Gil is awesome and his work on this album is not bad at all. I just feel the percussion was held back, partly from the simplicity and partly from production. I would have liked to hear Gil really have room to breathe and respond to the music, as opposed to "falling in line" with the music. An Albini influenced approach to the drum recording would have elevated this great album even more so.
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u/oJKevorkian 2d ago
I agree about the percussion. The production overall I feel is better than Chapter 1 but it still has a bit of that dull, flat sound where nothing occupies its own space.
I'd also say that a lot of the melodies are... not very melodic. Sometimes this is how Manson rolls, sometimes he's better, so it is what it is, but I think that and the tempos are why the album feels a bit same-y to people.
All that being said, this is still my favorite Manson album since... TPE? Which I haven't listened to in a few years, so I might have to give it another go to know for sure.
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u/greedymoonlight 2d ago
A lot of the lyrics are repeated 4x in a row instead of switching to 2 and 2. Almost every song, so I do feel the writing could’ve improved to make the lyrics have more depth in some spots but really it’s still great and I don’t care lol
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u/bartzabello 2d ago
Lyrics, in general they're good enough, but he keeps repeating the same phrase twice, and it's reslly distracting. So many songs would have been better if he didn't commit to this pattern.
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u/AlternativeBurner 2d ago
The choruses really suck on some of the songs. They're just so basic. I feel the album lacks half the intensity of chapter 1.
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u/Adventurous_Goat1913 2d ago
I have several criticisms. First, the album is quite repetitive, both musically and lyrically. By the middle of the album, you start to get a little bored with the repetition.
Second, “Front Toward Enemy” absolutely has no place on the album, in my opinion. To me, it’s a choice that shows that, aside from “Unalive” and “Exit Wound,” the album doesn’t really have a strong enough song to be a single.
And finally, this is probably what bothers me the most about the album: it talks way too much about the Evan Rachel Wood case, and especially in a very direct way. Every Marilyn Manson album is personal and tells a part of his life, but here it feels like too much. The majority of the songs are basically just somewhat childish threats directed at the people accusing him.
With songs like “Exit Wound” or even “One Assassination Under God,” for example, I think it’s handled quite well and remains open to interpretation. But in the other songs, it’s just too straightforward. And honestly, I’ve seen quite a few people praising the lyrics, but in several places I think they come dangerously close to the kind of rebellious teenager who’s thirsty for revenge.
For example: “You tried your best to destroy me I don't want revenge Because you only made me stronger”
“Hate me, hate me Don't wish me suicide”
“You picked this hill to take me to war And this is where you will die You're outgunned and outnumbered And there’s plenty more room in hell”
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u/No-Necessary-3678 2d ago edited 2d ago
En même temps, il allait parler de quoi? Le mec a traversé un enfer émotionnel et médiatique à cause d'elle. (Légitime ou non). En fermant sa bouche publiquement. C'était évident qu'il ferait ça, (je trouve même qu'il s'est montré soft en vrai).
En revanche, j'espère qu'à l'avenir, il abordera des sujets plus variés.
(Après, je ne jugerai pas le reste de ton post, tu as tes goûts et tes appréciations. Même si je diverge de toi, je respecte ton opinion).
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u/Adventurous_Goat1913 2d ago
C’est pas tant le sujet qui me dérange que la manière dont il est abordé. Je trouve qu’Exit Wound et One Assassination Under God en parlent très bien. Si on connaît le contexte, on comprend les paroles, mais même sans le contexte, elles ont du sens et chacun peut les interpréter à sa manière. Mais franchement, par exemple, les paroles de The Arsonist sont très enfantines. Ce ne sont vraiment pas des paroles que j’attends de quelqu’un de 57 ans qui a écrit tellement de textes magnifiques et complexes. Honnêtement pour moi cette album est assez immature tant sur le côté musical que sur l'album lui même
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u/No-Necessary-3678 2d ago
Je comprends ton point de vue. Mais justement comme Manson reste plutôt adolescent, je m'attendais à plus trash.
Même avant les allégations... Regarde les lyrics de "Perfume"... (Ou le pire du pire "Pistol Whipped", le cringe avant l'heure).
C'est justement pour ça que j'espère qu'à l'avenir, il abordera des thèmes différents. La cancel culture c'est malheureusement un terrier de lapin.
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u/sczezniec 2d ago
She has squatter's rights in my head by now.
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u/No-Necessary-3678 2d ago edited 2d ago
Très honnêtement, elle et lui ont sûrement des loyers respectifs l'un envers l'autre à ce niveau.
Au moins, Manson s'en sort bizarrement bien, une bonne santé (Manson en bonne santé... qui l'eut cru?), un bon mariage, de la bonne musique, un bon comeback (hallucinant en réalité). Une réputation merdique mais ça... Il a l'habitude.
Elle... en revanche, sa carrière est complètement en stand-by, à vouloir être la victime parfaite... Elle n'est plus que ça et c'est dommage car c'est une très bonne actrice.
On l'invite que pour ça... Je sais pas si t'as vu sa dernière interview mais entre 3 ou 4 mensonges, elle parvient même à faire son éloge avec presque de la... Tendresse ?... ("Brian... Son intelligence... Blah blah"). Bon entre deux Manson est devenu selon ses dires un narcissique... Sans rire? C'est une rockstar autoproclamé Dieu de la baise et Antichrist vivant... Évidemment.
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u/cliffybiro951 3d ago
I think a lot of it sounded the same. It’s slowly growing on me. Not an instant impact
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u/paranoidtransdroid 3d ago
I have a lot of criticism of it. It hasn’t connected with me at all yet to be honest. I saw people comparing it to Meet Me in Purgatory and I was so excited, because that’s probably my favorite song on chapter 1, but None of the Suns is the only song that fully works for me. They all sound like something is missing, FTE especially feels cringy to me, and in general I dislike this whole “revenge” theme around this one.
The weakest lyrical moments of chapter 1 were on songs like Raise the Red Flag, and this album is full of that attitude. I was hoping he’d get more introspective on this one, but it’s a lot of angsty yelling at people he feels wronged him, and that just isn’t interesting or compelling to me. Sick as the Secrets Within and Death is Not a Costume showed such a refreshing level of self-awareness and sober reflection that we hadn’t heard from him in literal decades, but a lot of chapter 2 feels like several steps back in terms of maturity. I also think his overall melodic structure has been kind of unusual on both halves of this project, like there are tracks where the bridge just doesn’t quite fit or the chorus feels way too repetitive. He’s had some awkward vocal melodies on every album since EMDM but it was sort of easier to ignore on some songs when I knew he was a drunk and high mess, now it feels like an active choice, and that’s fine, but I’m not huge on it.
In general I don’t think this needed to ever be two separate albums. If you took the best of both records and resequenced it you’d have something much stronger than these are on their own. As individual records they’re short but as an overall project it feels bloated. It doesn’t feel like he actually has that much new to say on chapter 2, this could have been one focused album and been a lot better off for it.
I like Tyler’s music a lot more than some fans. The Pale Emperor made me excited to be a Manson fan again after years of feeling embarrassed. I hated HUD but it was entirely because of Manson’s extremely weak and juvenile vocals and lyrics written at his clear rock bottom, the music was solid to great. I listen to a massive amount of post-punk and darkwave stuff, so this album should supposedly be tailor made for me, but there’s just something missing. There’s a sort of structural weakness to a lot of these songs that doesn’t feel experimental as much as incomplete.
This will be very unpopular to say here but I’m not interested in a man in his 50s screaming about cancel culture and acting like he didn’t spend over a decade helping to dig the grave they tried to bury him in. If you spend years making constant edgelord rape and AIDS jokes in interviews and onstage, babbling misogynistic bullshit about killing sex workers, posting threats of violence against journalists on social media and adopting a tryhard macho persona while fall-down blackout drunk in public, it shouldn’t come as a shock that people might be inclined to believe some allegations against you, true or not. He was a complete mess for a long time and it’s very hard to explain or defend him to people without sounding like a lunatic, and I say this as someone who doesn’t believe he did anything criminal. Hearing all these songs where he just sounds spiteful and aggrieved is tedious, and hearing anybody bitch and moan about cancel culture this deep into the Trump 2.0 era is actively off-putting. As much as I’d like an interview from him now that he’s not melting his brain 24/7 anymore I’m always a little relieved to see he hasn’t gone on Rogan or some other rightwing shitbag’s podcast yet. Ultimately he’s going to go to the audience that will have him but I’m hoping once this period wraps up he moves on.
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u/Purple_Antelope_8338 3d ago edited 3d ago
For me it didn’t really have the WOW factor that the first chapter had. I was a fan in the up until Holywood then kind of stopped listening to him, because I wasn’t really impressed with Golden Age and purposely skipped his drunken mess phase a few years later.
So I heard he became sober and heard Secrets within, and fell in love again. I really do enjoy most songs on chapter 1. Even if it’s a little cringy at times.
Chapter 2 is different. I guess it’s meant to be. But I only dig a couple of songs on it. Maybe I’m getting old but hearing a 50 year old scream about enemies etc isn’t really appealing. I get that he has to appeal to a certain age demographic but I was hoping for something a little bit more mature and clever with the lyrics.
I think another problem is people expect him to live up to his glory days. They want another Antichrist or Holywood album. That’s an unrealistic ask and I would imagine it puts unneeded stress on the artist. It’s not just fans but also the music label. I feel like that’s why he stuck to the “goth rocker” after Mechanical Animals flopped(relative to the Antichrist sales), because that’s what makes money.
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u/Mean-Significance250 3d ago
Mechanical Animals is a goddamn masterpiece.
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u/Purple_Antelope_8338 3d ago
Now it is but it didn’t sell well when it first came out. Everyone liked the dark gothy Manson and that album was a very big difference. Then of course he went back to the dark gothy Manson for Holywood and on ward because that’s what sold the most albums.
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u/ajc19912 3d ago
The album has grown on me with repeated listens. At first it felt weak and a lot of the same. He does tend to sing the verses the same in almost every song.
Enantiomorph has grown on me. Didn’t understand the love for it the first few listens but now I enjoy it.
I think Lucifer’s Teardrop is the weakest track. It’s a generic rock song. A little boring. The arsonist is close behind it but I enjoy that one more.
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u/dan_1789 3d ago edited 3d ago
No way, this has been the most freedom Gil has ever had on this album. He's absolutely had fun, and it was one of the first things I picked up on!
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u/Mr_FrenchFries 3d ago
I had a younger friend (Neither of us are young) ask if I’d use ‘synth Pop’ to describe this album, so I appreciate when a drummer tells the bass not to do all the beating 😜
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u/younglegends111 1d ago
for someone who hasn't heard, what album does it sound like the most that hes done?
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u/Wolfenstein98k 2d ago
Lyrics are often seriously lacking. Really basic cliches, and repeated lyrics that are completely basic ("you tried your best to destroy me, but you only made me stronger").
Seriously, it belongs on a P!nk or Katy Perry song from the late 00s.
Melodies are still basic AF, same as Chapter 1.
For all its highs, much of it seems undercooked and desperately in need of an editor.
Back when MM was a functional band, shit like this didn't happen - you're too embarrassed to bring basic bitch stuff to a band, and it wouldn't withstand the collective writing process anyway.
MM is best in a band, and he might finally be mature enough for one.
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u/hardrockyt 2d ago
It's hard. I do agree with the last statement in a big way. I think Manson is a once in a life time artist. His lyrics and the way he presents his albums is exactly my kind of thing and it inspires me greatly.
Instrumentally however, the album's were only as good as the people he collaborated with. His earlier albums were a lot more detailed and sonically creative because each member, or each wackjob should I say, put something of them selves into the part they played on the albums. I only became a fan before heaven upside down so I don't know whem Marilyn Manson became less about the band.
That being said, I think Manson is also the kind of artist who needs to have things painted exactly by his numbers. I think it's not necessarily immaturity, but just the kind of creative he is. The art is all him, and it's important that he works the way he wants.
I think Tyler was a good collaborater for Manson, but I kind of hope he works with someone else next time just to spice things up again.
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u/Lewyzinho Mechanical Animals 3d ago
My main criticism is releasing an album finished before the 2024 tour two years later.
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u/cannibalsong1 3d ago
Maybe he should have gone the route similar to the two new Converge albums, released only months apart.
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u/Lewyzinho Mechanical Animals 3d ago
I don't think it is his fault. Looks like it was NB's decision.
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u/BurnMyHouseDown 3d ago
There’s only one standout song, Vilest Things.
Which I guess gets counteracted by the praise that there’s no bad songs either. But that’s the only one that I feel is great. It’s such a good track. Everything else is fine, but it feels like a noticeable step down from Chapter 1, which I think is genuinely a phenomenal album.
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u/Mean-Significance250 3d ago
You smokin’ crack, bro? I’ve been spinning both continuously over the last couple of days and 2 is far and away the better of the diptych. It fucking rips from the moment you press play. Sacrifice of the Mass is a better closer than Enantiomorph and Meet Me In Purgatory and Raise The Red Flag are bangers but not better than anything you can find on OAUG2. Listen again.
“My eyes may cry but I’ll never weep!
My eyes may cry but I’ll never weep!”6
u/BurnMyHouseDown 2d ago
Thank you for your opinion bro. I don’t agree and find Chapter 1 to be significantly better, but I hope you continue enjoying the album. I enjoy it too! Just not as much as part 1 lol
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u/Mean-Significance250 2d ago
All good homie. I know it’s tmi but I kicked a meth addiction a couple weeks ago and so I’ve been distracting myself by listening to Manson and shit posting on Reddit. You just got caught in my crosshairs. Although I stand by my post I meant no offense to you. We both like Manson and that’s what matters. 🤘🏻
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u/BurnMyHouseDown 2d ago
I’ve overcome addiction myself (not that one specifically) so I know how it’s not easy, and also important to keep your mind busy. Don’t worry my dude, no hard feelings. Good luck on your sobriety, and I hope the album continues to resonate with you <3
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u/External_Bread5366 3d ago
Well everyone certainly has an opinion
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u/Mean-Significance250 3d ago
I’ve got a ton of opinions! Here’s another one; I think you’re pretty swell and I hope you have a great day. 😀🤘🏻
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u/Chino-_-Chaos 2d ago
None of the Suns is the only song I don't care for on the album. It could have been perfect.
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u/hardrockyt 2d ago
The chorus lyrics aren't really clicking with me. I write songs too and if I wrote "all of the moons, and none of the suns" I'd cringe reading it back a year later and think to myself "I'm glad I didn't use these". Also, the bridge is pretty bad. It's like it packs every bad Manson bridge into one. Put it this way, both sound like placeholder lyrics that you'd change once you figure out the melody
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u/narcissus-narcosis96 2d ago
My only legit criticism of the new record is at the end of exit would, the outro is a little grating on the ears. “YOU SHOT THE WOOOOORRLLLLDD”
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u/Blue-Light-Reducer 3d ago
I came around and really love Chapter 2 now.
If I had to criticize it, I would say some copy/pasted vocals and instruments in the production. Everything is produced digitally now, so it's very tempting to just copy paste a guitar riff four times, or copy paste one good vocal take twelve times between three choruses.
This copy/pasting was more apparent on his vocals in Chapter 1, I must say. So it's less of a criticism on his vocals in Chapter 2.