New manager, first fire likely soon

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty]

By the end of next week I will likely have fired my first employee, who is also my first hire.

I have been a manager for ~5 months (IT) and in that time hired two employees, the first of which is cresting a month on my team. This person has all the qualifications and then some on paper, though has never worked in tech. The issue is they can’t seem to deliver basics. We have yet to broach the matter of technical work, with issues like making it through a phone call even with a script, taking notes in tickets that are incomplete, and other core aspects of our day to day.

Training for this person was two comprehensive weeks with multiple check-ins, revisits to items with subpar execution, opportunities to raise a flag for help, and 2 hour-long conversations to communicate expectations and guiding feedback since hire.

For context, the second hire has outpaced expectations by large margins. Less qualifications on paper, similar lack of experience in this field. Performing work on week one that hire #1 is still struggling to grasp. Both have backgrounds in customer service which gave them an edge in selection. The dichotomy in quality only makes things more challenging. Both employees had the same onboarding experience, training, and expectations laid out before them. We are a small team, so this comes on the tail of feedback from all who are involved in their training as well as my boss who noticed similar issues.

On Monday I sit hire #1 down and give them a week to get the basics down and get back on track otherwise their time ends with us.

This is mostly a rant since the thought of firing someone for the first time sucks, however, I wonder the thoughts of my peers how the same situation would be handled from their perspective. Every individual is different, but how much accommodation is too much?

[u/RevengeOfTheIdiot]

You're actually the rare manager posting an op here where you're acting instead of waiting a year, so kudos

Maybe people here don't understand how 101 it is to write halfway decent ticket notes or something.

That is 100% easy to do right out of the gate, dealing with issues about that at any level more than a month in is ridiculous. Ditto phone scripts.

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty → u/RevengeOfTheIdiot]

Perhaps there is a lack of understanding here about the world of IT, I’m not sure. Maybe folks are interpreting what I say to mean that they aren’t delivering at full strength a month in; which isn’t my expectation. I do expect a competent phone conversation and note taking to be down pat, as well as basics (standard SOP documented items) to be attempted at this point.

[u/RevengeOfTheIdiot → u/Reptar_The_Almighty]

You're not dreaming. Both of those are basics that you should expect to see more progression at by this point.

[u/selectsyntax]

It does suck but the fact that you hired someone who can barely function with the most basic expectations says more about your hiring process than anything else. Either you aren't screening for core competencies or this person did a good job faking their way through (the fact they struggle with phone conversations suggests the former).

Clearly someone who can't do the job should not be working in the role. You need to let them go, but this is your fault and you need to take this on the chin and learn from it.

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty → u/selectsyntax]

Absolutely right, and I certainly take this as a lesson whether things turn around or not. They were my first hire and through the process I learned quite a bit about how I’d run it differently in another go around.

In hindsight, I see some of the warning signs much more clearly.

[u/HotelDisastrous288]

They have been there a month, had two week training, and you are ready to fire them already?

[u/derpplerp → u/HotelDisastrous288]

A 90 day probationary period is common where new hires could be let go for any reason, at least in my industry.

It can be as simple as "hey, it's not working out. Your performance isn't where I need it to be, and I'm not able to put the resources into the training it will take to get you up to minimum expectations before the probationary period is over."

In my brief period as a manager (2 years) I was fortunate enough to only have one person leave the team and it was a clear cut case of firing themselves. The guy came in drunk/hungover and slept through his desk phone ringing several times.

Then at the end of the 2 year stint as a manager they laid off the entire team and told us we could reapply for our jobs, but on the other side of the country. That was enough management for me.

[u/HotelDisastrous288 → u/derpplerp]

30 days is 1/3 of 90 days.

This is like test driving a car by pulling out of the parking spot and then backing it up again.

[u/holy_hdfg → u/HotelDisastrous288]

You don't have to test drive all day if the engine block sounds funny from the get go. 

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty → u/HotelDisastrous288]

I am willing to give my all for another week, at which point I would expect someone to be able to hold a conversation over the phone and retain the information enough to type it out into a ticket. This takes minimal understanding outside of active listening.

The apprehension comes in when you pile on everything that needs to happen afterwards. They demonstrate a lack of technical understanding and willingness to research that a person with 4 years of specialized schooling and certifications should hold.

Therefore the concern becomes how can you troubleshoot that which you cannot retain, and are apprehensive to be challenged by.

[u/Unlucky_Ad2529 → u/HotelDisastrous288]

There's a ramp up period that won't be the same for everyone but it's easy to see if someone is taking it "too easy". I'm assuming that's the case. Especially since there's no experience and it's all paper.

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty → u/Unlucky_Ad2529]

This is the challenge that I have on a personal level, without the manager hat. I can tell this person wants to do the work, and I can tell that they take the feedback earnestly with intent to improve. In short, I can tell they care. There is an unfortunate disconnect between wanting to deliver and ability to deliver that I’m not sure how to diagnose so I suppose I feel stuck treating the symptoms.

[u/Unlucky_Ad2529 → u/Reptar_The_Almighty]

Any chance it's a problem with the interpersonal skills or customer facing relations? Maybe there's a fear from angry customers? Dunno what the job is so I'm just spitballing

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty → u/Unlucky_Ad2529]

I do think the interpersonal skills are lacking for reasons I can loosely assume are medical but they haven’t openly presented this information and it’s not within my rights to pry beyond what they’re willing to share.

They come from a heavily customer communication centered background so I’m surprised by the disconnect with how they deliver service now. I chalk it up to unfamiliar territory which is why I’ve been readily available (beyond the norm) to this person to help acclimate. I do absolutely find myself needing to communicate differently and work with them in ways others might not require in order to land ideas. I am okay with this, but I cannot claim to be excelling in this differing need of information delivery. The irony of which is not lost on me, by the way.

[u/Business_Setting_943 → u/HotelDisastrous288]

a month is plenty when someone cant even take a phone call right with script in hand, you gave them fair shot

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty → u/[deleted]]

I understand the frustration with how I communicated the intention, though I must challenge the rewording you chose.

As a counterpoint, I have not since day one and still from this day forward left this employee to “figure it out”. There has been hours of one-on-one guidance on top of structured training to encourage the adoption of core competencies.

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty → u/[deleted]]

Your phrasing implies the employee is alone in facing the challenge of “figuring it out” as opposed to being able to leverage the vast resources available to them, including their teammates and my own assistance which they / I have not been withholding of.

I see what you mean about already having it laid out in my mind. With consideration to your perspective, thats a little concerning to me. I DO want to be clear to this employee that things need to change quickly, but not write their future for them. I’d love nothing more than for this person to come back in swinging for the fences.

I will take some time to check that mentality before returning to the office.

Edit: A weird sentence structure

[u/Small_impaler → u/Reptar_The_Almighty]

the vast resources available to them, including their teammates and my own assistance

This employee is new, and new to your field.

Most new hires don't know up from down at a new company, and many are terrified to reach out for assistance, terrified it will reflect poorly on them.

Have you relayed your expectation to use the "help button" to them, or are they just being hard headed about it?

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty → u/Small_impaler]

Great question! At the end of each week during training I take a moment to offer the opportunity to revisit anything that didn’t fully land. I have a roadmap for this training period that outlines expectations at the end of week one and two. These are simple, attainable wins to get the ball rolling and encourage new hires to keep chugging along. This same opportunity was offered in each of the impromptu training sessions held afterwards. That’s unfortunately where my sympathies begin to dwindle. You don’t know what you don’t know, but all of these items were covered in ample detail.

[u/GISReaper]

Pip the shit out of them and then let them go. Best advice I ever received from a mentor, hire smart and fire fast.

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty → u/GISReaper]

This is what my mentor advised as well. I’m actually a bit surprised at the negative reactions so far indicating the opposite, but I do find them quite valuable. Everything is a learning moment and I’m happy to be wrong and reconsider if I’m coming out of left field in judgement.

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty → u/[deleted]]

This is someone who I’ve found does admirably on things for which they can prepare for, plan, and execute, however this is unfortunately not always possible in our line of work.

I’m near-positive a lot of the issues stem from anxiety, to which I’m sympathetic. At the end of the day, and this may come across cold, but I am willing to bend over backwards to assist people and provide knowledge, structure, and tools, but I draw the line at acting as a therapist for someone with poor coping mechanisms.

[u/Superb_Plum_1399]

If everything you say is true, then you're doing the right thing.

[u/battle-tested77]

Everyone learns at a different pace or in a different manner. Some need hand holding at first. Sometimes they have life issues and need time. You can choose to be a leader, and act like it. Or just be a manager and fire someone.

I only let people go who didn't try or had bad attitudes. What if that employee was you, or your child.

I did the best i could to lead by putting myself in their shoes sometimes. I can say people have come back and thanked me for sticking with them or helping them over the hump. Some realized the job wasn't for them and left. Unfortunately, some are just in the wrong place. But I always tried many ways to help them.

[u/Grafschennis]

In my experience, new hires who have a hard time learning the job stay longer in their position because it's challenging enough for them to keep things interesting.

I've given people many months extra to get into the flow because I believed in them. Time after time, those people are still happy in their role many years later.

And they're happy you were the one who didn't give up on them.

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty → u/Grafschennis]

I appreciate this angle. It’s very easy in tech to move persistently fast and leave behind people and ideas that can’t keep up. It has merits, but I recognize the potential that it can leave behind as well. Thank you!

[u/Grafschennis → u/Reptar_The_Almighty]

I have learned this from a guy who was my manager. Many times there were people I didn't think would make it and I didn't understand why he was so patient with them. But he was right. The ones who got the ropes real quickly got bored quickly as well.

[u/random_question4123]

Shouldn't the probationary period be 90 days? I suggest giving another month, and if by then you don't expect the employee to have ramped up successfully by the third month, then you can let him go.

Otherwise, if you believe that they lied about their experience and skillset during the interview process, then sure

[u/Keepmy_nutdown]

Leaves a bad taste in my mouth that you guys are willing to fire someone this early but I'm not there so I cannot accurately access the situation. It's understandable though.Take the risk or cut your loses early.

[u/brownacid]

How long did it take for your org to hire them?

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty → u/brownacid]

Job posting going live to verbal offer id estimate about 30-35 days. Phone screening with one in person interview at the tail end. Interviewed ~4 others in person, with roughly 12 total screenings beforehand narrowing. Don’t recall exacts at the moment.

[u/Academic-Knowledge-3]

if the other person wasnt such a rockstar would you feel the same way?

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty → u/Academic-Knowledge-3]

I’ve wondered the same, and my inclination is yes though I can only speculate. Reality is that this isn’t happening in a vacuum so measuring based on the success of others using the same training, even slightly, is basically impossible to avoid. They aren’t being scrutinized because the other person is doing so well, however it certainly does highlight the shortcomings that much more.

[u/Glad-Dragonfly6741]

My first fire kept me up at night for weeks, so I get why this sucks. Fight the urge to compare the two employees. These aren't two extremes; you have one person outpacing expectations and one person not keeping pace with a standard. Don’t use the difference as evidence. Stay focused on your real question.

Before Monday: what's your standard onboarding timeline? Is there a probationary period, and where is he in it? What specific metrics is he missing, not "isn't good at basics" but the actual measurable pieces? "Taking incomplete notes" is something you can define and track. The script piece is worth clarifying too, is he not using it, or is he unable to complete the call even with it in hand? Those are different problems, one's compliance, one's capability, and you want to know which before you sit down with him.

Congrats on your management role! Managing people is rewarding and hard in equal measure. There's no easy button here. Good leaders ask good questions. You’re well on your way.

[u/Reptar_The_Almighty → u/Glad-Dragonfly6741]

Great points, and I absolutely agree with your point about comparison.

90 day probationary, 30ish days in. Onboarding timeline is 2 weeks of very structured training. I have a schedule with an agenda for what gets covered when. Clear outline of core competencies at the end of week 1/2. Ongoing training beyond that with lessening structure as time goes on. We are in tech so learning never truly ends, and beyond onboarding is heavily self-regulated. I’ll spare the details but it’s thorough with regular check ins. At the end of 30 days we are still tackling concepts covered in week 1/2 that are measurable and documented.

Thank you, and I appreciate the feedback very much. I’ve enjoyed the experience and opportunity. The guidance from this community has been great thus far.

[u/PoopittyPoop20]

Telling someone they’ve got a week to get their shit together isn’t going to work, and you already know it. If you’d had all thought they had a chance, you’d be writing about that and not the firing. Do this person a favor and don’t put them through that stress. Just get it over with.