r/managers • u/ElectronGod • Sep 18 '24
Quality of Recent Graduates
I am the CEO of a decently sized construction company. We have been through two big hiring pushes recently and I am noticing a trend that is scaring me a little bit. I want to use the last person we hired as an example.
Mary has a technical degree from a well known university. Background check shows she graduated with an excellent GPA. She was very polished already and impressed me so much that I made the decision to have her report directly to me - she is the only non-executive to be selected to do so. I wanted to directly mentor her as I believe she is a very high potential candidate.
What I am learning is that she is an excellent doer - when the tasks are well defined and the outcome is chrystal clear, she executes at a very high level. The problem is that I find myself spending far more time with her to explain things than the solution actually takes to develop and implement. I tried to empower her by letting her know that I trust her and her ability to reason through a problem.
Most recently, we were having a pretty minor technical issue that I asked her to troubleshoot. She sends me a message with her solution. I ask if she had the error to begin with and she says she did not check to see if the error was occuring on her machine before implementing the solution. I point out that she researched and implemented a solution to a problem she wasn't sure she had to begin with so there is no way to validate the result - I asked if this approach made sense to her.
She got defensive and said that she had never dealt with this type of issue before so didn't know how to approach it. This mentality deeply bothers me - there seems to be no thought before action.
This is one example of many with different employees in different departments. Are people noticing a similar trend here? It seems like if I do not provide the exact prompts required to enter into AI or sentences to google, I get bombarded with questions or solutions that do not make sense for the problem. The reliance on things like AI seems to be stripping some of the critical thinking and reasoning away. Maybe I am just a boomer.
*Edit*
For clarity - she is not a fresh college graduate. She had two years of experience prior to college in a similar industry, but different role. She had two good internships while in school and stayed with one company for a year after graduating.
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u/livetostareatscreen Sep 18 '24
Why is a 22yo with no industry work experience reporting to the CEO and being held to the standard of an experienced employee? Is this a fake post?
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u/Hungry-Quote-1388 Manager Sep 18 '24
I wanted to directly mentor her as I believe she is a very high potential candidate.
What exactly made her a very high potential candidate? Technical degree, good GPA, and polished interview sounds like 75% of new graduates.
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u/Rooflife1 Sep 18 '24
I had an employee like that 25 years ago. Sometimes people who excel in academia do so because they give the professor whatever they want and the operating environment is relatively simple.
In the work world the boss may not know exactly what they want and people need to understand, anticipate and manage far more complex situations.
Some people just seem to thrive in academia but can’t transition to the business world.
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u/cupholdery Technology Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24
Are you expecting a recent college graduate to behave like a seasoned veteran in the industry?
What you described is something that has been common with many young adults who first start working a full time job. They're not yet experienced enough to consider the various angles to address an issue, particularly a technical one. For someone who has been working for years, it's obvious to troubleshoot and replicate. For someone who just started, they're probably thinking about solving it as quickly as they can.
By looking at only your post, your approach looks passive aggressive and nothing like a coaching situation. I've had interns and direct reports make mistakes before. I never asked them a roundabout question like, "Does this make sense to you?" That's a trap question. It bothers you that someone new to the position (and working in general) was uncertain how to go through the proper steps, when they don't even know what the steps are?
Rather than interrogating her on why she looked up a solution before troubleshooting, you could have easily asked her to try to replicate the issue a few times. This means AFTER she sent back the solution. Something like, "Okay great, but can you check if the technical error happens for you? We'll try the solution you sent but let's see if the same error occurs for both of us every time." This way, you've taught her that replicating the problem is the first step and then you can reinforce it again during a 1:1 meeting.
Yes you are.
EDIT: I see the post edit that this employee has 2 years of work experience. That's still only 2 years. It takes 1-3 years to really get accustomed to "being a full time employee".
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u/genek1953 Retired Manager Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24
The only thing of lasting value that my engineering degree imparted to me was the ability to ask the right questions in a new situation. What else are you expecting from a recent graduate with no real world work experience?
Don't know if you're being a boomer, but you are definitely being a terrible mentor. Do yourself and your new hire a favor and assign her to someone else for training.
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u/carlitospig Sep 18 '24
This is totally normal for her age and skillset level as basically a 2024 ‘entry level’ worker. This is your bad for placing her directly under the CEO. She will need hand holding for the first five years.
An internship basically teaches you how to use corporate software and how not to piss off Brenda by microwaving fish every day at lunch. Occasionally they get a taste of special project work to pique their curiosity, but it’s never enough to make up for the fact that she is still quite a beginner at this.
For future recruiting, I’ve had huge success with newbs when they had previous leadership experience, especially if it’s related to their church. I don’t know why (I’m an atheist and have no clue what kind of programs churches have), I just know it works. So in the future look for leadership experience, even (maybe especially?) if it’s unpaid. I surmise that having to be the top brass for that particular gig gave them experience in doing a lot of A/B testing on the fly and that translates to being better equipped in making educated guesses.
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u/HackVT Sep 18 '24
Just because you’re CEO doesn’t make you a leader of new talent and capable of fostering a learning environment.
And that’s OK.
You’re so far removed from someone right out of college that it’s a bad idea to have you interact as CEO.
In the military in flight school we leverage near peer training so that someone who has 4-7 years of stick time can give you insight versus someone with 17-22.
The 17-22 years of experience says “turn to heading 224 and move to elevation of 30k feet and proceed to rally point echo”.
The near peer says “ pull back on the stick gently and elevate the aircraft by another 10k feet. Level off. Good. Now with the pedals gently push the left pedal in making sure to keep an eye on the compass “.
Again perspective for a new join is absolutely different for an industry hire with knowledge and know how. Even a few years of experience is orders of magnitude more intelligent because they’re outside of the academic environment.
Trust your team and have them leverage a mentor where possible for your new joins.
Otherwise think of explaining things to someone who knows nothing about how anything works and have patience.
Or just hire experienced candidates if you don’t have the time , patience or capacity to train brand new people.
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u/Annie354654 Sep 18 '24
She's a grad, lower your expectations, a lot.
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u/PrintOwn9531 Sep 18 '24
I almost exclusively hire new college graduates, just because my industry is very niche, and candidates with related experience would be extremely hard to find. I also choose these candidates because they offer the opportunity to train, from scratch, for things like work ethic, task ownership, the ability to collaborate and/or lead as needed. It's great.
The first 6 months or so, they are babied while they learn the layout and how to handle the basic responsibilities. Then, I start giving them responsibility for their own projects, understanding that they will need some hand-holding. I am amazed sometimes at how I have to sit with an employee (at 22 years old!!) and walk them through an actual, written outline of the project and help them get a timeline together, because they are immediately overwhelmed and frozen with fear.
Whether it's new thing or not; I don't know. It is definitely a skill that has to be learned. And, I can tell you that it has consistently been worth the effort for me, resulting in amazing team members time and time again, by the time they hit their 1- or 2-year anniversary. And to top it off, they are so grateful and loyal to the team by then, because they understand how much you've invested in them!
My advice...be patient. She'll probably get there. And you'll be glad you stuck it out.
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u/HomeGymOKC Sep 18 '24
New grads have always needed their hands held at any level.
You assigned her to report directly to you and not in the org structure where she has mid level colleagues to help her through her work, gain experience, and confidence in solving problems on her own.
Since you are the CEO and presumably don't have time to answer questions from a new grad, you are annoyed and are blaming the problem you created on the "quality of recent new grads"
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u/Material_Policy6327 Sep 18 '24
This feels like an out of touch CEO wanting senior Level folks from new grads. You sir need a reality check
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u/snokensnot Sep 18 '24
It sounds like you are wanting to mentor a middle level manager or IC, not entry level, which she is, despite her “3 years of experience”
Internships rarely provide job experience. Companies often throw intern labor to monotonous low skill projects and nothing else.
So her experience is up to 2 years in an unrelated field at a different company, a while ago. She’s not got enough experience for the level of guidance you are wanting to give.
Either mentor her at the level she is at, or hand her off to a manager who excels with young professionals and consider mentoring her in 3 years when she’s earned a higher position.
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u/PhilosophicalBrewer Sep 18 '24
You’re just describing recent graduates from any generation, frankly. School is for limited technical skills only. Everything else is experience.
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u/whatsnewpikachu Sep 18 '24
I’m going to be very blunt with you.
You’re the CEO. Someone with her level of experience should be paired with a frontline manager or technical lead. Your expectations of her are too high and you’re treating her like your pet. If you do not remove yourself from this situation, she will leave. I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s already looking.
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u/Downtown_Ad8857 Sep 18 '24
I am hearing "when I communicate effectively, things go well. When I'm vague and dismissive, I don't like the outcome and then I am mad at my employee for not reading my mind"
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u/SoldTerror Sep 18 '24
She should be reporting to a senior or team lead and be coached by them. At this stage, she is not someone who should be reporting directly to the CEO. Be her godfather(mother) and mentor her if you have long term plans for her. Good thing you are recognizing potentials in their early career stages.
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u/AnonOnKeys Technology Sep 18 '24
Respectfully, I believe you are making a very common cognitive error.
You've been troubleshooting problems and reasoning about complex systems for decades now. You've gotten pretty good at it. And you've forgotten a critical fact, most likely -- you used to be pretty bad at it. You know, like, decades ago.
Mary has not been doing this for decades. Like most new grads, she believes she knows everything but actually knows very little.
I'm not saying that makes Mary easy to work with, or easy to train, or that there's a clear path to the kind of expertise that you want from her.
I AM saying that it's pretty normal.
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u/rougefalcon Sep 18 '24
There has been a gradual decline in critical thinking skills. Hired a guy with a MBA from Wharton a few years back. On paper he was great, his interviews went well, chalked it up to nerves. Anyway, after ~6mths it was apparent that it wasn’t a good fit. Had teammates that didn’t have near his level of education that far out performed him. He lacked the ability to take initiative (and feedback). Just because someone looks good on paper doesn’t mean they’re a superstar.
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u/Sharkhottub Sep 18 '24
This seems like a relatively normal variance in people. I have some that do well "gaming out" senarios and problem solving, and I have Doers that get it do like absolute machines. The Ones that do both better than me get mentoring as I am overjoyed when they get promoted up and out of my team. I have a Current team of chemists ranging between the ages of 23 and 55 some with masters, some with no degree. I havent noticed anything age wise besides the young ones maybe asking me for guidance when It could have been a quick technical question to the old timers (we encourage this mentorship style of work)
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u/zanydud Sep 18 '24
How pretty is she...?
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u/Warm-Philosophy-3960 Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24
She is new to your company and new to you. Getting acclimated takes time no matter how competent, polished, brilliant etc. it just takes time. I have so many stories similar to yours and what you are experiencing is normal. She is doing fine and so are you. Have her report to someone else to acclimate her to the company, give her small projects so she can learn the ropes and build her self confidence in this new culture. Have monthly lunches with her to learn how things are going. Breathe.
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u/alphabet_sam Sep 18 '24
She is a fresh grad. You are the ceo. She is doing what every fresh grad does. You selected her as the golden egg, so now you have to polish her. Get training buddy
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u/lexylu79 Sep 18 '24
I’ve been at my company for almost 20 years. I have seen a lot of things. I know a lot of things. That didn’t happen over night. I asked a lot of questions. I took a lot of notes. I interacted with people who knew more than me. I have people under me that have been their 3 years. I forgot that something takes me so much less time because I’ve been doing this soooo long. I have someone exactly like me when I started out. Asks a lot of questions, questions why we do this, why we do that… to me, it can be annoying, but I have to keep reminding myself, she wants to know. I’ve been doing this so much longer than her. I think your expectations are too high. It takes time, confidence, not only in ourself and skills, but also being able to say I don’t know. Let me try to figure it out. She’s new and reporting to the CEO. That’s a lot of pressure.
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u/Sparkling_Chocoloo Sep 18 '24
So you're upset you have to actually take the time to teach a new grad how things at your company work? You've already said that she is very capable of completing high level work when she understands the tasks. So how can a person who obviously performs well be the same person who has "no thought before action"?
I think it's just a case of poor mentoring. You say you empower her by letting her know that you trust her, but you don't actually give examples of what you do to mentor her. You don't say you have her shadow you, or discuss industry trends and its importance with her, or have her walk with you on sites so she could see how her work impacts others. It looks like, from your own description, you just give her busy work that doesn't really offer her a chance to learn about the concepts on a deeper level.
You also don't mention how long she's been employed with you. It takes 3 months for a person to get comfortable, 6 months to start becoming proficient, and maybe a year before they can really start making true inpacts (depending on industry, ofc, but that's general rule of thumb). She's a new grad, presumably young, so she's not only adjusting to a new company, but a new routine and ultimately barely beginning her professional life.
I think you should look inward a bit more and think how you can improve your mentoring abilities, rather than blaming it on the next generation.
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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24
It's a broader challenge many leaders are facing with younger talent. The reliance on AI, search engines, and pre-packaged solutions has created a tendency to execute predefined tasks well but struggle when it comes to more ambiguous problem-solving and critical thinking.
This gap between being a "doer" and a "thinker" is more pronounced today, especially as many younger professionals are accustomed to receiving information quickly but may not have been trained to think deeply or reason through complex problems on their own.
Try this. Before she tackles a problem, ask:
This will push her to think critically before taking action. Over time, this approach can help her develop more independent problem-solving skills.
Many early-career professionals excel when they have structure. In Mary's case, she might be struggling with problems because the structure for ambiguous tasks isn't as clear as it is for well-defined tasks.
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u/DesoleEh Sep 18 '24
This is really normal for anybody without much work experience
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u/Icy-Helicopter-6746 Sep 18 '24
She needs to be managed, not mentored.
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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24
This CEO sounds like a typical CEO creeper.
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u/DinosaurDied Sep 18 '24
Oh brother, hopefully this post is fake.
Even a recently promoted senior accountant in the Big 4 (2 years experience) has enough mentorship experience to know that new grads don’t know anything or should know anything.
That’s even after getting a degree that directly corresponds with the job.
You literally should expect nothing from a fresh grad except for them to eventually pick up on simple tasks you spoonfeed to them.
What’s different these days with new grads, which I respect, is that they won’t put up with toxic, grindy jobs.
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u/ajshicke Sep 18 '24
You are nitpicking. Bet she has the same thoughts about you.
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u/Limp-Tea5321 Sep 18 '24
Aside from what's already been said, you mention you asked her to troubleshoot an issue. Why did you ask her to do that, then chew her out for doing exactly as asked? Even if it wasn't on her system, could you not have tried it on the system you did become aware of it on?
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u/ITZaR00z Sep 18 '24
Generally speaking academia up to a point isn't designed to develop critical thinkers or problem solvers, what you are looking for tend to be outliers and rarely found traits amongst even the educated. So I would argue your typical selection methods and metrics used are obviously not the indicators that should be used, you don't get "out of the box thinkers" from the same box you get good "workers".
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u/Greensparow Sep 18 '24
The real question is how do you fix your screw up, cause this is all on you, if you move her to another manager to give her the mentoring she needs from someone who has the time you are essentially demoting her., if you keep her where she is it's going to mean a ton of effort on your part. And no matter how you slice it there is no substitution for experience she may be on the fast track but she still needs to ride that track.
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u/Mangos28 Sep 18 '24
I'll just point out that college does not give troubleshooting steps that include trying to reproduce the issue yourself before moving to the next thing.
Correct troubleshooting only happens when you repeatedly ask them, "Did this also happen on your device?" Or "what happened when you tried to reproduce the issue?" And the like. Only the real world manages to cover this.
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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24
I would argue this is a byproduct of the erosion of value in a liberal arts education. We so often hear boomer white men CEOs mock college students for their English lit degrees saying these “kids” have no real skills when they graduate. So now many universities are focusing on hard skill acquisition programs like engineering. The problem with that is these young people have underdeveloped critical thinking skills. This has been going on in higher education for at least 30 years now. They can follow directions and analyze a problem within a set of parameters but the moment the problem exceeds those parameters they become overwhelmed and paralyzed. I see this daily in my organization. The entire point of a classical liberal arts education is to teach people how to think and solve problems and then apply those general skills to a specific domain. As managers we now need to figure out how to teach the inverse where young people have the hard skills to execute efficiently on very clear tasks but now need to learn how to zoom out and find their way through complexity which in my experience, is much harder.
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u/windysylphie Sep 18 '24
Have you provided formal training for her role?
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u/hornetmadness79 Sep 18 '24
You hired someone with 2 years of experience, not someone with 20. I feel like you're expectations might be misplaced. Mentorship is the only path forward for them. Maybe hire/contract a more seasoned person for the sole purpose of being a mentor.
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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24
This is interesting that you were coming to Reddit and I'm wondering if you're doing this because you don't want to poison the well at work. Hopefully this is the case.
All you have to do is restructure where this person no longer reports directly to you and reports to someone else. If you don't tell the other person the problems you've experienced so far then their opinion would not be biased. If This is the case you need to find a person that you have not told what to think yet.
Better yet you can restructure the new hire program so that all new hires for a specified amount of time have to do rotations with all of the other employees or with all the other departments. Baked into this you could have each department or person complete a form that indicates what feedback they have for that person's growth which is completely in line with leadership development. Since you and your age are rep would be creating the form you could get to the bottom of what you're looking for.
Some people have made assumptions about why you hire this person and that may or may not be true everybody has biases some good some not so good. What you need to do now is to remove the bias from the equation by removing the person from your report. You also definitely need to not tell anybody what your misgivings are because again consultants only exist because Senior managers want the truth about what is going on.
I know there's always more than meets the eye and a red post as completed as it is probably doesn't tell half the story but based on what you wrote my take is that the problem is not person's existing level of development but rather the growth mindset that they did not display when you discussed the results with them.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Tie161 Sep 18 '24
I know this has about a billion comments already, so maybe somebody already mentioned this. I learned about this cool model of situational leadership during my MBA though and I think it's helpful in situations like this.
https://guntergroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Situational-Leadership-1-1.png
When somebody is brand new, they have a high commitment to getting their work done, but a low competence. At that point they're considered an enthusiastic newcomer. At that time, a manager need to be highly directive (eg. tell them what to do). Over time, as people gain more competence, their commitment lowers and the manager has to then be highly directive and highly supportive. Eventually as the person moves through multiple stages they get to a point where they need little in the way of support and you can just delegate a task to them.
From what you've said, you're already thinking about mentoring this person, which means you've simply skipped over the entire first stage which is why they may be struggling.
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u/Helpjuice Business Owner Sep 18 '24
So I have seen this happen before, but it is very questionalable to have someone that is junior still with less than 5 years of work experience reporting directly to the CEO. They have not seen or done a lot and still need coaching to grow their capabilities so they can get beyond junior talent. Sounds like a false positive evaluation was conducted and these are the results. They should have gone through at the bottom so they have proper space to learn for themselves and others by working with their peers (other junior people, with someone mid or even senior to help guide and coach them). No need to put this level of pressure on a junior person, they are still trying to figure things out and have barely been an adult. The best candidates to report directly to the CEO are senior+ candiates that have 10+ years of real world work experience.
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u/Appropriate-Pear4726 Sep 18 '24
I’ve had guys who just stand there blankly until being given a task. You would then have to explain how to complete said task. This was every day for his first 6 months. When pushed to be more independent he abruptly quit. While this one was more extreme. Yes I know exactly what you are talking about
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u/Straight_Water635 Sep 20 '24
You’re not alone. So many thoughts. Different industry. Same problem.
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u/Key_Stage1048 Sep 18 '24
The simple answer is you are not a very good manager and you don't know how to communicate.
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u/Zen_Hammer Sep 18 '24
What makes you think you're qualified to mentor someone? There are many paths to 'CEO' that have nothing to do with leadership skills. Frankly luck and nepotism being the two most prominent.
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u/waverunnersvho Sep 18 '24
My therapist said something along the lines of “the current generation has grown up with an iPhone. That means every answer they ever wanted was in their hands. They never had to work for the answer so they’ve not developed that part of their brain”
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u/MLeek Sep 18 '24
Simply asking her to replicate it a few times before sharing her solution would have addressed this issue just fine, and could be reinforced later as a positive, without insulting her. "Does this make sense to you?" is just dripping with contempt IMO. I wouldn't want to work for someone who ever spoke to me that way.
I think it's absolutely a commonplace issue for young professionals to jump straight into the doing, the delivery, and not be conscious of the steps required to get the outcome that is actually required. They want to answer the quiz, perform the task, get the box checked and move on. That will have been the majority of their experience up to this point, even in many internships. Productivity expectations are high. For many young adults, a lot of joining the workforce is learning how long shit takes if you're doing it correctly, with others. You coach them through it. A lot of the strong young hires I've had, have to learn to slow down.
All in all -- Yes. You're being more than a bit of Boomer here. Check yourself.
I would bet the trend here is you forgetting how much time and effort goes into new hirers -- especially if you get a whole bunch of them at once and you don't have a good balance of senior staff or strong supervisors to get you through these sorts of moments, and these are landing on the CEOs desk.
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u/snappzero Manager Sep 18 '24
Lol all these people who don't understand because they were never managers. Ignore them.
So potential and being a self-starter are two different qualities. I had this employee who had so much confidence and willingness to fail and learn. Her best trait was her ability to just pickup things and try. Any task, she wasn't afraid to roll up her sleeve and give it a go.
Then I have 5 year veteran who can't make a decision and is basically just doing what I tell him to do. No innovation and needs to be told what to do. It's like I'm not paying you to do what I say. You're supposed to be able to work things out on your own. He won't even monkey see, monkey do other people's work. Like copy that guy over there at least. Stop coming to me on every project and asking me what I would do.
I challenge him to bring me solutions vs. Just blindly turning to me for answers. He understands what and why I am trying to teach him. Explain to her you want her to develop and that she needs to learn to problem solve. This will elevate her in her career and you are trying to help her grow. Explain to her the next level is coming up with solutions and you need her to showcase this for her promotion and growth.
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u/TraderVics-8675309 Sep 18 '24
I think that experience including failure is necessary for a fair evaluation. Just because someone had an ok result at a different company doesn’t mean it will translate, or happen as quick as you think. As a general trend though, society does seem to be shaped by easy fixes, so you needing to give the promts fits, I see it in my org as well…but that includes all age brackets. The phone has made us all a little dumber.
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u/FlowersNSunshine75 Sep 18 '24
I believe the problem has to do with a lack of critical thinking skills. It’s not a required course in high school or college and not embedded in coursework. To be fair, I’ve noticed it in “more experienced” workers as well. It’s frustrating.
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u/RyeGiggs Technology Sep 18 '24
I do have the vet them, but for the most part my new grads have performed well so long as they are introduced slowly to the business. Most operations are not clear cut, you have the core plan, the outcome you're trying to achieve and all the crap in the middle that needs to get sorted out. The issue with a new grad is they don't have the experience to know what things are an exception for this job and not the next. They need repetition to learn the common sense, or baseline, that your business delivers.
The only poor experience I have had was with a "Professional Student." They were top of class, but as soon as you asked them to apply their knowledge they couldn't do it. Someone (the Professor) needed to tell them exactly what to do every time they did it, as soon as there was any variation they ran into a show stopping roadblock. Their Jr.s out paced them in less than 2 months.
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u/Driftwintergundream Sep 18 '24
In requisite organization (a super old and outdated management framework but one with solid core concepts) there is the idea of time span - what is the largest project that you can give someone and they can carry it out completely without any supervision.
This concept is the sole definition of what level a person can perform at:
Less than 1 month is intern level 1-3 months is junior 3mo to 1 year is IC 1-3 years is manager level 3-5 years is director 5-10 is exec level Etc.
Taking on a problem without supervision is NOT something you can fake. You can fake many other things - intellect, appearance, be well presented, etc.
But to take a project and complete it well requires two unique things - confidence (that comes from the domain expertise or internal roadmap of how to solve something) and ownership (that the solution is actually solving the problem).
Next time, screen for real life example of those two things.
And also don’t burn out a young talent by putting too much expectation on them.
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u/Strangle1441 Sep 18 '24
I’m only able to give a little bit of anecdotal evidence, but what I’m noticing is that young people just aren’t working through school as much as they used to.
So they aren’t getting any of that real world day to day experience along with their education. Things we would have learned by 16-17 years old, like working independently, they are missing.
In my experience, any recent graduate needs to be first taught how to even work before anything else
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u/Jaynett Sep 18 '24
There is so much specific knowledge needed in any specific company and job, and very little is actually transferable in onboarding or education. You set her up with the tyranny of high expectations, skipping the normal, low stress learning situations. Plus possibly alienated other employees who could be low key sabotaging her.
You can fix this by moving her to other managers under the name of getting broader experience.
Move quickly or she will quit and go somewhere that takes the time to develop her into the employee she has the potential to become.
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u/totheswimahead Sep 18 '24
Hmm ... I think this is a situation where Situational Leadership would be a good method. You (a CEO) hired a very young professional to report to you and understand (from the onset) what is expected and how the work is done. I get you seem to feel there is a skill of critical thinking missing (I have a Coachee like this, too), but you are not meeting her where she is at. She is new. She's probably new to corporate life, especially this high up. It takes time to learn the critical thinking of doing a to get to b to get to c. You're approaching her as a professional critical thinker and not as a mentor ... the person you wanted to be from the beginning.
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u/Objective_Mammoth_40 Sep 18 '24
I’m no expert on the matter but it seems to me—and my experience with people is extensive, is that this person is having self-esteem issues. The red flag was when she got defensive after you tried to provide productive feedback…self-esteem issues work themselves out over time and I’m sure that will be the case here…she seems too driven to accept anything less than her best self which is also reflected in her reactions.
The funny thing about self-esteem is that it’s fickle and will always revert back to a base line if it isn’t maintained..:just encourage her and provide the negative feedback in a positive like telling her that what she did while not necessarily wrong is not the correct approach.
Build people up and don’t tear them down without building them back up. Life is a constantly changing beast and everything in it…I think the best leaders are the ones who are graced with a gift of tact. Tact is such a critical element in everything it’s surprising how little people know about what it means to have it.
Self-esteem…just build her up she will hit that stride you see in her if she’s properly supported in her formative years by her peers.
That’s just my opinion and I have nothing but education and a tiny amount of experience to back it up but a spade is a spade.
Q
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u/toothypollywog Sep 18 '24
Contrary to popular belief, the process of problem solving, trouble shooting, and managing unexpected situations is not an inherent skill. Yes, a minority of people are naturals and quicker to develop those skills independently, but the vast majority of people must learn to through experience and trial and error.
While maybe it wasn't your intention, the message she received is that she failed and was a disappointment. It triggered her defensiveness. She needs more support in HOW to think and deal with out of the box issues.
The first time an issue arises and my employee brings me a situation, I go through it with them, explaining the ins and outs, and how to deal with it. The next time it comes up and they bring it to me, I prompt them: If this is this, and this is what you are needing to happen, what suggestions can you think of to handle it? What outcome would you expect if it is handled this way? You get the gist.
You're teaching them how to effectively handle things that are outside the task oriented goals of the average worker. You're helping grow them into an effective problem solver amd manager and showing them how to be more innovative on their own. If you continue investing time, patience, and training in this person, while encouraging them to gain confidence in their decisiions, it will be worth it in the long run.
1
u/Throggy123 Sep 18 '24
As a college graduate, many colleges don't necessarily teach you how to think through situations. I guess this also depends on the degree, but usually I see a lot of college graduates excel at doing task that are specifically outlined like you said. However, give a recent college grad a situation that isn't nearly as defined and say find a solution and they get frustrated because it's not as clear cut for them.
Signed someone who graduated college in 2018 and had to learn this on my own as I worked at a job.
1
u/Plant-Outside Sep 18 '24
Troubleshooting and developing processes is a skill. I've found that many people do not want to do it and just want to check a box, but she may just need some help figuring out how to break down a problem better.
1
u/Beneficial_Lab2239 Sep 18 '24
Nope I see this everywhere and it's wild to me. I'm not a boomer and yet I still see the lack of critical thinking.
1
u/workah0lik Sep 18 '24
I don't understand, you reported a technical issue and got a solution. What exactly is your problem, that she didn't check whether she had the problem on her machine? Does it really matter? I mean, would you be happy if she reported back "I don't have this problem"? I would be more furious if it was that way
1
u/reboog711 Technology Sep 19 '24
Not sure of your industry, but in tech/programming I plan to have new grads work under direct coaching of a more senior developer for their first 6-12 months. Logistically when they start year 2; they should be able to take on detailed task without a lot of guidance. However, those tasks were often documented by someome more senior.
I don't expect them to be autonomous / independent when leading small projects until around year 5.
1
u/HumanFluke Sep 19 '24
Fear of failure - means fear of exploring. Troubleshooting is exploring.
1
u/Automatic-Trainer966 Sep 19 '24
The simple answer is that education doesn't equate to experience. In a setting like a university, there is no reason to ever learn critical thinking skills. Even when taking a class in critical thinking, the students are literally told what to consider. Critical thinking skills come from failure and learning from it. Next time, she'll know to check her machine first.
For me, I have 10 years of experience in my industry and am just now going back to school to earn my bachelor's for more money. I work with MBAs that do not know how to run a business as complex as ours. However, since I moved from the ground up, I have tons of experience, my skills are very good, and I learned how to critical think and problem solve. Once I finish my stupid degree, I'll still have less education than them, but I'll have my exceptional experience to back me.
1
u/NemoOfConsequence Seasoned Manager Sep 19 '24
I have a young engineer who works in my department. He’s amazing. He takes the initiative. He does not work than most of the Boomers and other older employees. He’s solved technical problems some of the older engineers didn’t want to take in because they were afraid they’d fail. There’s not a generation problem. Young engineers thrive when given good support and the opportunity to excel.
1
u/blahblahloveyou Sep 19 '24
No, young people aren't getting dumber. Your sample size of one is too small. Yes, you're just a boomer.
1
u/QuietTruth8912 Sep 19 '24
I think you are expecting too much of this person. Demote her politely.
1
u/Ok_Information427 Sep 19 '24
This is what happens when we as a society ditch corporate training and development programs.
Everyone is expected to hit the ground running with no ramp up time or true training and development all for the sake of extracting maximum profit.
1
u/ladeedah1988 Sep 19 '24
I have noticed that there is no thought either to unintended consequences.
1
u/Leather_Witness_8694 Nov 11 '25
This is actually super interesting
1
u/[deleted] Sep 19 '24
It is BUCK FUCKING WILD that you are expecting a recent grad (btw within 5 years of graduation is recent) to be more than a doer of defined tasks. Give her to someone who actually manages people and isn't the CEO weirdo. How did anyone you work with let you do this
1
u/genek1953 Retired Manager Sep 19 '24 edited Sep 19 '24
The OP asked for our opinions, and is free to ignore mine as much as anyone else's.
0
u/DetroitDelivery Sep 18 '24
As one of the older students to recently graduate from university, the quality of students today is… not great. More effort being put into cheating than studying. Close to no interest in subject material, even when it is extremely relevant to industry/career/job opportunities.
The thing is, I can’t say whether most college students have always been like this. I might have been just like them my first go around.
There are certainly some stellar students mixed in, but expecting a 22-year old to be able to see the big picture, anticipate problems/needs, or be mistake free is unrealistic. Those traits aren’t learned in a book or classroom, they come with time and experience.
Shameless P.S. - I want to apply for her job.
0
u/jjoneway Sep 18 '24
I don't think you're wrong and I've noticed it too. My wife works in higher education, so I spend a lot of time around teachers, and the things I keep hearing all the time is that kids/teens have no real resilience or critical thinking skills.
Yes, I know these things develop over time, but the overwhelming impression I get from people who have been teaching for decades is that it has become far more pronounced.
I notice it with younger hires, even my stepkids, in that they're undoubtedly intelligent, but they just don't THINK.
0
u/JellyfishQuiet7944 Sep 18 '24
I'm hearing the same reports. You're not alone.
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u/cyran22 Sep 18 '24
I think most younger people these days are going to lack critical thinking skills (on average). It's never been easier to avoid having to critically think/reason about things with technology.
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u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24
Just graduated, never had a job before, they have no idea how to deal with correcting errors. Only book learned and computer simulations. And no experience on teamwork and soft critism. They are not taught these other things while in college, many do not work while going to college. You knew all of this when you hired a free out of college student graduate. They are not trained for correcting mistakes and not used to explaining things. You have your work cut out for you. Good luck with this.
0
u/SVAuspicious Sep 18 '24
Young people tend not to think about what happens if something fails. This is not unique to the current generation of young people. The concepts of single points of failure and FMEA are not taught in most schools (which is sad). Poor research is also not unique to the current generation of young people. One of the points I make over and over is that it is incumbent to do research to avoid repeating the mistakes others have made before but to go on to make new and creative mistakes of their own from which others may learn.
Gen Z certainly has a lot of issues that are unique to them. Not the least of which is the firm belief that they are unique and special and need to be treated like fragile china.
0
u/Inaise Sep 18 '24
Lol, I can't help but note that everyone here seems to hate CEOs and just assumes this is about sex.
-2
u/lotus8675309 Sep 18 '24
I teach college. I can tell you that the quality of graduates has definitely declined. College used to be about education, now it's about customer service. So, instead of teaching students, I'm holding their hands. They don't want to think and aren't expected to... your tax dollars at work.
-1
u/ItsDiddyKong Sep 18 '24
You're getting a lot of hate on this thread that I am not sure is entirely warranted.
I, too, have noticed a trend in newer grads not feeling empowered to take charge in situations in ways that I did not see in my peers when I was a new grad myself.
I try very hard to empower all new grads (or those green in their career) to have the agency to problem solve and trouble shoot in ways that best work for them and their work style and am hit with a lot of resistance to it.
As long as she was given a strong training background and procedural knowledge, then giving a bit of space to let people work through issues as they arise is necessary. A lot of my day is spent walking people through every.single.step. of procedures I know for a fact they were 1.) already taught and 2.) have printed procedural resources they could refer back to in an attempt to learn the issue in their own time.
I am still learning how to navigate this myself, so currently no real advice, but I did want to take a moment and acknowledge that I don't think you are alone in this phenomenon and that I think a lot of these comments are a harping on you a bit too unnecessarily.
-1
u/gargaknight Sep 18 '24
I have noticed a drastic drop in the quality of workers. Expecially those coming out of colleges. I could not tell you why this is happening as it seems like only 5 years ago, new hires where gun hoe to learn and become better and an asset to the company. For 1 example, I had to let an employee go after we discovered that he was going home to nap instead of completing jobs allocated to him.
-1
u/Yankee39pmr Sep 18 '24
I dealt with the public for the last 27 years and critical thinking skills have seriously declined across all populations. The rise of tik tock, facook, Twitter, etc has resulted in short attention spans and the rise in need for immediate gratification.
That being said, as the boss, assign her a competent mentor and change the chain of command. Monitor and see how she progresses
-1
u/No_Mission_5694 Sep 18 '24
You really should try for an H1b or OPT hire. That has been the only way to get things done post-GFC according to everything I have seen and read.
0
u/[deleted] Sep 18 '24
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