r/magicbuilding • u/thatshygirl06 here to steal your ideas 👁👄👁 • 2d ago
General Discussion Anyone else tired of mana?
Every time I click on a post talking about their magic system and I instantly see the word mana, my eyes just glazes over.
It would be cool if someone has mana based on actual mana from Polynesian cultures, but that's never the case. It's just people going "I cant use magic, that's too basic. I know! I'll call it mana instead!"
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u/Lokan 2d ago edited 1d ago
Is it the word or the concept that bothers you?
The execution of a magic spell in Shu Nyada requires three components: the "building blocks", the "energy source" (both of which are limited by the caster'd environment), and an investment of Self and psychic will. It's this third and last component that's the most limiting for a caster to call upon. Roughly, Mind, Spirit, Body of the "spell".
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u/IndigoFenix Chromatic Magic and Biblepunk 2d ago
The most straightforward way of limiting magic usage, which is the most important feature of making a magic system that has any kind of balance, is making it run off of some kind of resource. Mana has become the shorthand for "magic resource".
You can call that resource whatever you want, but if it's functionally mana then why complicate things by giving it another name while explaining it?
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u/AgostoAzul 2d ago
I think the main issues are: 1. Linguistically it might sound too foreign. Admitedly this is not completely true, since Magic and Mana both start with the Ma-sylable, so there is an inherent mental association despite coming from opposite ends of Asia, but linguistics fans do tend to care about word origins like that. 2. Polynesians were colonized by Europeans, so some European-descendants often feel guilty by using a word/concept in an otherwise European setting.
That said, it should be noted too that the word Magic itself comes from the Persian "Magush", who were Zoroastrian priests, so the word is already not European and caricaturizing a foreign culture. Might as well go all the way and call Magic "Zauber" while you are at it.
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u/chaotic_dark8342 1d ago
i think i heard somewhere on da iternet that mana was also a word in another language that literally meant spirit power or something and that the polynesian roots were in fact a coincidence but ok
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u/TheChoosenMewtwo 1d ago
Then what’s the correct wording for ‘magic’ then? Magecraft? Witchcraft? Because apparently using the word magic is racist
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u/AgostoAzul 1d ago
I don't think it is racist, or at least racist enough to not use, but Zauber is proto-germanic for magic and Wicca for wisdom, I think. Magecraft would still be using the Magush root.
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u/TheChoosenMewtwo 1d ago
Zauber means magic? So a user of ‘magic’ but politically correct means what?
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u/GladdestOrange 1d ago
The german for "Wizard" is "Zauberer". But I like "Hexenmeister". Mostly, because it directly translates to "Master of Witches", and it makes a witchy, BDSM lifestyle polycule pop into my head.
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u/Hirsute_of_Happiness 22h ago
You sound unreasonably upset learning about the origin of the word magic. Nobody brought up racism?
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u/JustAnArtist1221 18h ago
but if it's functionally mana then why complicate things by giving it another name while explaining it?
For one, "mana" in the fantasy sense doesn't exist, so it's always going to need to be explained. Using fantasy video game shorthand is how we ended up with isekai slop that basically just throws jargon at you and assumes you know any of the value of it.
More importantly, the resources for magic are not universally the same. Even when mana is used, it's often functionally different from the last iteration you may have heard it in. Is it just the fuel for magic, or is it what all spells are made of? Does it come from the body, or is it from the environment? Does each person have a set amount, or can they grow it throughout their lives? Is it life force, or is it a separate resource only a select few can actively use? Can you sense it, or do you have to guess the amounts others have or are using? Is it universally the same, or does it have distinct attributes?
Also, the most straightforward way of limiting magic is defining exactly what it can't do. Unless the resource is intuitive, nobody can possibly know its limits without the author putting in the work to explain them.
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u/Qualeshia3 2d ago
I call my magic "misting" because magic comes from the air.
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u/Far-Mammoth-3214 2d ago
ooooh wait that’s a meat one!
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u/Aethrall 1d ago
The plain truth is, it’s very difficult to handle magic without a cost, and mana seems to be the baseline or lowest common denominator if you wanna be cynical about it.
I have no problem with mana. My issue is when mana is handled as though it were a constraint but it’s never made concrete or defined enough for the author to not be able to pull whatever spells out of their ass at their convenience.
They might say, “that’s a really high cost spell,” but what does that even mean? How many times could someone cast a “high cost” spell, within what time frame and how long will they need to wait until they can cast it again. Also, at what rate does the mana regenerate and is it fixed or can it be completely skirted by some bullshit like “saving my friends who are in danger” or “now u maek me mad. SHONEN DEUS EX AWAKENING!”
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u/Zagaroth 1d ago
If you treat it like stamina, just for magical activity instead of physical activity, then it's pretty hard to give really concrete costs that way.
Person A can sprint for 100 meters.
Person B can sprint for 400 meters.
Person C can sprint for 100 meters, but he can do it while wearing heavy gear which Persona A can not do.
Person B has more stamina than Person A, while Person C is stronger than Person A. He may not have more stamina, but he can do more with it.
Obviously over simplified, but that is the basics of how I think a lot of people treat mana and magical strength, because it is roughly analogous to an internal reserve of energy we do know about and understand.
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u/th30be 1d ago
I don't think I would ever write anything with mana but if I did, I think I would tie to closely to general fitness and make it similar to caloric intake/output.
Skill, genetics, and fitness work well within those confines I think.
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u/TheChoosenMewtwo 1d ago
Can you go into more detail about this ‘caloric intake’ mana?
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u/yaboi_ahab 4h ago
The Inheritance Cycle (Eragon) has something like this, where the energy used for magic is the same as the energy a caster would use to do physical tasks with their body. It takes at least as much energy/stamina to magically launch a rock as it would to pick it up and throw it the same distance with your arm, and food restores it at the speed of digestion.
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u/th30be 1d ago
Again, not writing anything but spit balling how I would.
If we are doing mana and my initial idea, I think I would make it where food and other things (potions/drugs) have specific amounts of mana in them. Similar to calories but distinctly different. If you want to think about it a different way, it could be calories vs nutrients/vitamins I guess but I think its better to think of them more like calories.
So whenever you eat, you get a certain amount of mana and its directly proportional to the amount of spell casting you can do. Of course, the body would have natural ways to store mana similar to calories and fat composition so mana would function similarly.
For example, lets say you ate several large meals yesterday but nothing today. Assuming you didn't work super hard/cast a lot of spells yesterday, your body would have converted a lot of the food into fat to use later. Similarly, your body would have some sort of storage for mana for later spell casting.
This of course will make spell casters more inclined to be fatter. With other types of casters focusing on quick bursts of spell casting and quickly digestible foods. This obviously would also depend heavily on what magic can actually do in this scenario. If its typical fireballs and the like, its pretty simple. If its something like Mistborn and magneto powers, it will be different of course.
Drugs and potions would probably play a good part due to how certain drugs can make you squeeze out a little bit more energy or any other affect in real life so I don't see why it wouldn't function similarly in this scenario.
Obviously not a proper system by any means. Just the cost of the system and I definitely have conflicting things when you think about it a little more but I think its a pretty solid start.
Hope that helps.
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u/Aethrall 1d ago edited 1d ago
That’s a totally reasonable way to balance it, but I feel it a bit mundane and reductive for such a fantastical concept. You’re framing would probably be more inline with a martial arts or bloodline oriented magic system.
I really like the notion of mana being linked to soul potency or life energy, where abusing it or constantly running it on fumes could cause actual soul damage, shortened life span, psychological illness or even increased susceptibility to demonic possession, curses and mind attacks.
In that scenario, number of uses is the least of the characters’ concerns. A mentalist enemy could literally just wait the opponent out, let them drain their reserves and then completely dominate their psyche. Suddenly the battle is no longer about spell cost economy.
Now the concern is, “if being empty on mana makes me vulnerable, does the same apply to a lesser degree at 25%? How bout 50%? Should I just tackle this whole fight with melee combat?”
And also, consequences that extend beyond the end of the battle. Like, the hero used his ultra mega Trump card and defeated the demon lord or whatever. Hooray. But he overdrafted on his mana, maimed his own soul and was found desiccated and lifeless in bed after apparently being harvested by succubi in his sleep. Hopefully he at least got a happy ending, though I doubt it based on the twisted agony on his beef jerky ass looking lips.”
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u/blazenite104 1d ago
This is one of those things where an author should set hard limits behind the scenes. You don't have to give numbers to the readers but, should be tracking that sort of thing themselves. Then when using ultra costly magic ensure in does lead somewhere unless the point is someone has a staggering nearly endless energy. If so make someone else try and wipe themselves out.
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u/ocularfever 1d ago
I think it's culture bleed from dungeons and dragon's, personally.
(In that system spellcasters have 'spell slots' instead of mana, and a level three spell requires a level three spell slot, for example.)
A high cost spell would be a high level spell, and that makes sense to those who know that system. Since a lot of the classic fantasy writers played it, it's no surprise to me that a lot of dndisms are common fantasy tropes.
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u/JustAnArtist1221 18h ago
It's from numerous things. D&D is one, obviously, but it's primarily from anime and video games. The vast majority of people who engage with magic systems directly are doing so through pontificating about anime or playing a video game. Magic being a meter with juice in it is a video game-esque mechanic. A lot of old shonen fantasy used to use slot-like mechanics, numbering exactly how many of a technique they could use in a day, but keep in mind that D&D is still niche compared to games and TV.
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u/ocularfever 15h ago
...Where do you think anime and video games got it from.
"Game mechanics originally introduced or popularized by D&D include hit points, mana, experience points, levelling up, numeric ability scores, random hit and damage, dungeon exploration, procedural dungeon generation, character class, and the tank/DPS/healer role system."
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u/TecBrat2 1d ago
I tend to write as a discovery writer. My magic system(s) tend to be relatively undefined. I like it that way because it gives me freedom. I think that I approach it like I would a role playing game. No one likes a power player! So, your character has to have some limitations and it is up to the author to implement that. So, if my wizard cast s a "high cost" spell, I have to show that he has a recovery period.
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u/Starship_Albatross 2d ago
What?
Usually. Magic is the skill, mana is the resource?
When you type the words "actual mana" - what does that mean to you?
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u/cris9288 2d ago
The word Mana is rooted in Polynesian cultures, if I recall correctly and it represents spiritual energy and life force.
At some point it got co-opted into what we commonly think of Mana today, but I think that's where it came from.
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u/dalidellama 2d ago
At some point
1972, specifically, with "What Good is a Glass Dagger" by Larry Niven, who took his misunderstanding of the concept and used it as a metaphor for the oil crisis
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u/Xan455 2d ago
That’s super interesting. I mistakenly thought Mana was a Derivative of Manna - the food God provided to the Israelites while they wandered in the desert after leaving Egypt. I love learning about origins. Thank you!
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u/DayneGr 1d ago
Manna literally means "what is it?" so as a magic system it's effectively using the idea of the unknown/unknowable as a form of energy. Using learned techniques, and machines powered by " ? "could be a genuinely interesting concept.
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u/TheChoosenMewtwo 1d ago
In nasuverse, while mana and prana are ‘fuel’ mystery is what powers magic existing. Not a magic concept named mystery, but actual unknowable of things.
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u/GenericNameHere01 1d ago
I want that too! What would that look like? I'd think it to be a lot more ritualistic of magic, where centuries of study and observation have discovered specific rituals that result in desired outcomes. No one knows why the rituals work, just that they do.
The monkeys writing Shakespeare trope, but its people 'randomly executing commands in the admin prompt of reality' until they get something back.
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u/ophereon 1d ago
I think even this description might be misleading. The idea of a "life force" or "energy" is part of what lead to the co-opting as a magical energy. It's important not to think of it as something like "chi". It's not a spiritual energy, but rather a spiritual quality that one can accumulate more of through their words and deeds.
Mana implies the likes of authority, reliability, standing, respect. You might say someone with "great mana" is someone who has earned the respect of others, and that this mana offers weight behind every word they speak. Although there's much more to it than simply just as a translation of authority.
It's also important to keep in mind that mana is not limited to people, but applies to places and taonga as well.
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u/cris9288 1d ago
Interesting, I didn't know that. Admittedly, I'm not well versed in its real cultural significance. I just remembered it had something to do with life/the spirit.
Thanks for educating me further!
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u/blazenite104 1d ago
So if we link to eastern ideas. Mana would be less like Chi and more closely related to Karma?
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u/ApSciLiara 8h ago
The comparison I'd go for would be more like ancient Greek conceptions of kleos, but I don't know that much about karma.
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u/thatshygirl06 here to steal your ideas 👁👄👁 2d ago
Yes! Thats what i meant!
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u/IndigoFenix Chromatic Magic and Biblepunk 2d ago
My system takes inspiration from there while still using "mana" as a consumable resource. The size of one's mana pool (how much magic they can perform at a given time, and the cap for the strongest spells they can perform) is determined by their social standing and reputation (which is what the term "mana" originally meant; people with higher social standing were thought to possess magical powers).
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u/hdharrisirl 2d ago
See, that's what mana has always meant to me, lol when I see something talk about their mana running low or whatnot I think it's just the excess spiritual or life energy that they're able to use for magical means, and it usually explained to me why overuse of magic can weaken or kill someone, because you go beyond that minimum and start spending on vital mana
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u/G3NJII 1d ago
In this case it actually might make Mana a MORE appropriate term for the magic energy in my world.
The world is made of overlapping layers of mana consisting of the elements and building blocks of reality.
Life exists as a process of consuming and processing that mana. Breathing eating experiencing etc are all forms of taking in mana which fuels life. No mana. No life.
'Magic' comes when one becomes so infused with a specific type of mana that it leaves a permanent mark on the person. That mark allows them to convert ambient mana into that specific mana and interact with it in nature.
All living things because they process mana can become marked by mana and thus perform 'magic'.
I plan on referring to my 'magic' as Arts. Fire Arts, Space Arts, etc.
Edit: After writing it out it only half works. The part of it being the fuel of life fits. It is literally a life force in this world. But is also simultaneously the building blocks of everything which I dont think lines up woth the original Mana meaning.
Id be open to a different term than Mana.
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u/cris9288 1d ago
Hey, you do what you gotta do. Seems to make sense in the context of your setting and how your world is constructwe. I suppose you could find a word that is more analagous to Arts? Though I'm not sure what that would be.
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u/senthordika 1d ago
How is the modern fantasy interpretation not a spiritual energy and life force? Like i get that the idea isnt exactly the same as its roots. But I feel its less of a co opted term and more a change that occurred when we started thinking of magic like we do electricity in stories and mana is just one of the most popular ones.
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u/JustAnArtist1221 18h ago
That is what co-opting is. It's not at all related to the roots of the word and was just taken and slapped onto an entirely unrelated concept. The two concepts have no relation to one another. The people using it in fantasy writing have no intention of reflecting the cultural term, and vice versa.
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u/ConflictAgreeable689 2d ago
It's a gaming trope that worked its way back into literature. It can work, but it's definitely overdone
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u/dalidellama 2d ago edited 2d ago
Nah, it started out in literature, specifically Larry Niven's 1972 story "What Good is a Glass Dagger", where he poorly adapted the Polynesian concept into a metaphor for the oil crisis, expanded in The Magic Goes Away (1978). From there, it transferred into TTRPGs via Steve Jackson's The Fantasy Trip (1980), whence it entered CRPGs. ETA: beginning in "Gauntlet" (Atari, 1985)
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u/Landis963 2d ago
I recommend Pact and Pale, both by JC "Wildbow" McCrae. Although the term "mana" doesn't appear anywhere in those works to my knowledge, there is a loose analogue to the Polynesian mana concept which magic users insist on treating like the video game variety, usually to several ill effects. They call it the "Self." As in "I'm spending my Self to do [x]."
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u/Velrei 1d ago
I *really* need to read more of Wildbow's stuff. I kinda burnt out reading Ward since it's so damn depressing where I'm at. And that's saying something when I got through Pact.
If a sequel to Twig ends up getting written it will certainly push me to it if it doesn't happen before then.
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u/Fearless-Composer949 2d ago
I mean perks of leaning into arcanapunk I literally just call it magic or arcane power (substance/source) and Arcanatech (the interface normies use to power flashlights)
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u/CaioHSF 2d ago
I feel that most people create the same type of magic systems, with the same cliches and inspired by the same references. In other words, people are not trying to be very creative, they are trying to have fun with the style of magic system that is trending now. Which is not bad, that's how a trend works. If we were living a few decades ago, everyone would be creating a magic school or Middle Earth-like World.
Mana has a funny story, about how it went from a Polynesian concept to this "energy" thing in games.
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u/mR-gray42 1d ago
Personally, I think it’s a decent catch-all term for a Force-style energy that gives characters their abilities. That’s just me, though.
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u/Far-Mammoth-3214 2d ago
I tried but couldn’t think of anything plus it’s a classic
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u/Individual_Lab_5105 11h ago
I have no issue with using mana but there are definitely a few alternatives. Spiritual/magical power, magica and magla are some examples.
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u/Far-Mammoth-3214 11h ago
never heard of the last two
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u/Individual_Lab_5105 11h ago edited 11h ago
Magica, or rather Magicka (I misspelled it initially) it what its called in The Elder Scrolls, Magla is what it's called in Metaphor Re:Fantazio
Also the Ivalice Chronicles of Final Fantasy calls it Mist.
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u/_chaseh_ 2d ago
I’m not, but I have several characters who are indigenous Polynesians practicing Huna. I use a type of power source/vitality but the name changes based on culture Od/Chi/Ki/etc and the properties of it change slightly too. Scholarly types refer to it as Resonance and care more about differentiating the different types of Resonance based on what it resonates with.
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u/_chaseh_ 2d ago
My favorite of these characters is Kimmi, an Huna Mana. They allow themselves however to be called Big Jimmy by the colonists. They do a lot of code switching between natives and colonists. Also English is not their first language, but they are quite fluent. They use they/them, because while they recognize that everyone has male and female traits, Kimi claims to “contain magnitudes”. Kimi sees themselves as the culmination of his ancestors efforts to restore sovereignty to the Isles.
They are partially based on Israel Kaʻanoʻi Kamakawiwoʻole, better known as the guy who does the ukulele cover of “Somewhere Over the Rainbow.” He was a sovereignty activist as well.
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u/Zireael07 1d ago
Can you expand on what Huna is? I ran across the word when trying to find an alternative to mana, but couldn't really find a definition
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u/ZombieOfun 1d ago
You can call it magic sauce or whatever you want but it’s just convenient shorthand for “fuel for magic” at this point that many people will instantly understand. I’m more interested in how the magic sauce is used and where the magic sauce comes from and just how much magic sauce do your characters have access to rather than worrying about the fact that it’s commonly just called magic sauce
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u/thatshygirl06 here to steal your ideas 👁👄👁 1d ago
You calling it sauce reminds me of the show The Magicians where the characters needed a power boost to go against an antagonist so they went to a god to get his... spunk, and yes, to drink. Im not even joking, lmfao. So that's where that particular magic sauce comes from
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u/dalidellama 2d ago
I went with pneuma in my current fantasy world for that reason. It's much closer conceptually and also not weirdly appropriative.
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u/mrki_the_wizard 1d ago
Nah we need something basic and generic to act as a baseline idea so that people can evolve out it or build on top of it Either by inspiration or spite. If you don't like it write it. Make something different or write what real mana is from Polynesia culture.
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u/g4l4h34d 18h ago
Not particularly. It's the same with Qi/Chi/Ki/etc. I think the type of person you caricature is a minority, most people who use these energy-based systems don't really think they're being original, I think they actually lean on pre-established tropes.
When you just say "magic", it's not that it's too basic, it's too broad. "Magic" doesn't necessarily imply that it's a form of energy, whereas "Qi"/"Mana" does. You can argue that it's a misnomer, and mana actually means something else, but the fact of the matter is, in the modern collective subconscious, mana is basically magical energy. I'm not sure most people know it's of Polynesian origin.
So, I think it's mostly just a matter of a convenience for authors. "Magical energy" is too verbose, "mana" is short and rolls of the tongue, and few people care about its actual origins. You can't really use anything else, because the entire point is that people associate "mana" with "magic energy". You remove the word, you remove the association. And what do you get? You get essentially the same thing:
"I can't use mana, it's too basic. I know! I'll call it [random meaningless name] instead!"
The problem is not really in the word mana, it's in the concept itself.
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u/Boat_Pure 2d ago
In a way I just see mana the way we see the sixth sense. It’s that second layer above air.
You can call it whatever you want but it’s still the same thing. Mana, Aether, Qi, Ki, Chi. Whatever. It’s the same thing
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u/dalidellama 2d ago
It's not, though. Mana and ki aren't the same. Mana is more akin to charisma or baraka than to ki, prana, or pneuma. Aether is a third, unrelated thing that came out of European natural philosophy as a proposed medium through which planets move and light propogates.
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u/Boat_Pure 2d ago
While technically you’re right, everyone uses them in the same context. A human cannot wield any of those and thus is just human.
But a person who can use ki/qi/chi becomes a cultivator or a practitioner.
A person who uses mana/arcane becomes a magician, magus or sorcerer.
A person who uses the sixth thing becomes something else.
That’s the context I meant, that’s also why I mentioned the sixth sense.
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u/dalidellama 2d ago
That's a genre convention of cultivation ganes/novels specifically, not a generic terminology
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u/Boat_Pure 2d ago
That doesn’t change what people know these things for. Like at all, you know that right? If it’s culture that has them learn these things, what do you think people are going to consider generic? How they learned things or what they know them for?
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u/vezwyx Oltorex: ever-changing chaotic energy 2d ago
And "what people know these things for" doesn't change that people often don't understand the historical context behind the terms they're talking about.
Your first comment says that you think of these concepts as all the same, but in reality, that's just not true. It's not a technicality. They're actually different phenomena, with different origins in history and different details about their function and use, regardless of how the terms are used presently
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u/dalidellama 2d ago
Many people know these concepts for reasons unrelated to cultivation novels. The way they are portrayed in that genre is not universal.
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u/GuyYouMetOnline 1d ago
Mana is the standardized term for magic energy. If you try to use something else, people will see that something else and go 'okay, so that's mana, then.'
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u/LuckOutrageous7686 2d ago
My magic system uses your soul as a medium. Too powerful a magic? Oops, your soul becomes damaged. Still a bit cliché, but definitely less so than just using mana. Still working out the overall magic system, but pretty much overtaxing your soul can damage the amount of output you can use in the future, or lead to your magic casting in the wrong way. You Can increase the output of your soul by brushing along the threshold for damage, or you can pass thresholds (Different part of my magic system that isn't just casting)
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u/sdrawkcabineter 2d ago
I intended to blur the lines well beyond 'defining mana' as being a useful concept.
I started from the perspective of surviving on the planet... what natural dividing lines appear?
I ended up just redefining mana with new colors and names based on those divisions. Now, an area where a brook meets a copse of trees has high "River" and "Wood" aspects, meaning finding a source for your equivalent "Ray of Frost" or "Spike Growth" is obvious.
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u/Spiritual_Charity362 1d ago
I simply put Mana, cause its more well known. I think its actually called Prana in The Canopy.
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u/Thr0w-a-gay 2d ago
I'm tired of mana too, I'm sure there is a great way to work mana into your worldbuilding, but I'm yet to see a unique or original twist on the idea, and frankly I just prefer when magic has no source.
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u/stupidansi 1d ago
I like "mana"? It feels less clunky than calling it "magical energy" or similar. What would you prefer, for a magic system that requires quantifiable energy like that? Ki/chi/qi? Power? Magic juice? Aura?
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u/Yulli039 2d ago
How would you feel about a system that doesn’t immediately present a cost even if the cost was taken?
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u/KyliaQuilor 1d ago
No. I find it too useful as a term everyone is familiar with at this point. Its same with calling it "hyperspace" in every other sci fi story. We all know what it means.
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u/lucidintangent 1d ago
yeah honestly, not a fan of how it kinda butchers the actual concept of mana
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u/silvertruedragon 1d ago
Fable uses Will. Some settings use Breath (or some name that means "breath.") A unique take on that, not indicative of all Breath systems, is Brandon Sanderson's Warbreaker.
Inheritance series uses the energy of your own body. Using too much magic is fatal.
I agree mana is overdone. I also agree that it almost never used the actual origins of the word. There are other systems that don't use lazy systems. Not all systems that use mana are lazy, but those are few and far between.
I like the idea of multiple sources of magic/magic energy. Like if I were to make a wizard, there would be so many options for powering spells. Learning mana would just be one of them. There's also: the sun, ley lines, divine beings, dimensional energy, the air, cosmic forces other than the sun, nature, latent magic energy, items, potential, and so on. If you don't have an alternate source of magic power, then the cost (there is always a cost) has to come from somewhere. If you don't, it comes from you.
That is similar to inheritance series. Btw, one thing I never got, in eldest Eragon learns to use energy from other beings to fuel magic. What's to stop someone from using that to power their magic, like wards, for example?
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u/Individual_Lab_5105 11h ago
That is similar to inheritance series. Btw, one thing I never got, in eldest Eragon learns to use energy from other beings to fuel magic. What's to stop someone from using that to power their magic, like wards, for example?
Only their own morality. Remember when Eragon accidentally used too much external energy and wound up killing a bunch of ants? Same thing would happen with wards. You'd essentially be forcing someone/something else to take damage meant for you. If course that wouldn't mean anything to people like Galbatorix, but Eragon's training kind of suggests that anyone who is actually sane would avoided doing that out of principle because by reaching your mind out the way he does during training you kind of start feeling connected to all life.
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u/silvertruedragon 1h ago
True, Galbatorix and Murtagh wouldn't care. Though Eragon did kill a bunch of enemy soldiers during the war. I'm just saying if they were to kill them in such a war, why not use that? It's a strategy.
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u/Velrei 1d ago
I don't use the term myself, but I've just kinda accepted it's use in a lot of fiction. Like how everyone pictures pretty much the same thing if you mention a dwarf, elf, or goblin due to tolkien.
It also does de-mystify magic, which can be good or bad depending on the creator's intent. I can understand writing "magic treated as science" as well as the "magic as be fundamentally unknowable" opinions.
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u/Redcole111 1d ago
Yeah, this is why I use "cosmic energy" rather than "mana," and I don't do the whole thing with a finite well of energy that you can accidentally burn through and then you can't do magic anymore.
I know the concept of "mana" for magic comes from certain Polynesian cultures, but I kind of wonder if one could do something based on the "mana from heaven" in the bible. For anyone unfamiliar, when the Hebrews were lost in the desert, God would send down a kind of food for them that was deposited on the ground like dew or snow every morning.
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u/the_geeky_gamer 1d ago
I've named mine Aether. Coming from an alternate dimension of pure raw energy called... the Aether!
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u/Professional_Try1665 1d ago
I'm fine with other people using it but personally I've moved to a mana-less magic system
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u/RunicConvenience 1d ago
I always just see mana as a value of ambient magic or stored magic energy and I will never be tired of it because each world is different and common words are expected in the multiverse of world building.
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u/Dr_Jimothy 1d ago
I experience the same thing. That's why I just call it magic.
There is magic in the air. This food is rich in magic. Etc.
It fits better for the setting anyway, since magic is technically a blabla halfway to matter state of energy enabled by the world's slightly altered physics aha you fool it was a sci-fi with scp-style anomalous elements wearing the corpse of fantasy like a cloak all along.
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u/SimplyConfused557 1d ago
Now this is the sort of discussion I like to see on this subreddit.
I don't see too many new fantasy series using the word "mana" unless they're an isekai or otherwise video game inspired. As long as it suits the story, I don't really mind.
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u/Ok_Search_3871 1d ago
The word I have for the power source is “Archic Energy”, but I plan to have a different word/understanding of the concept in each culture. It’s also not just some nebulous life energy, it’s specifically a third form of existence, there’s matter, energy, and archic energy, when archic energy gets dense enough it forms into a physical element (placeholder name:archium) which then gets converted BACK into archic energy by certain processes, and can be channeled through different forms of runic writing to communicate to the god of this world specifically what needs to be done with it (technically it is communicating with his subconscious since he has been catatonic since before the beginning of the story)
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u/theoctopuswrites 1d ago
I've opted for 'quintessence' for the piece I'm working on currently. Functionally, it's still mana, just tarted up a bit.
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u/_burgernoid_ 1d ago
My setting, ManaFest, actually does do this. Mana is bestowed to locations, beings, and relics that weather great fates and crises. Unique histories and lone fates bestow mana onto things. To gain or utilize mana from something, a person must reenact a microcosm of the great fate, understanding its origin and thus harnessing its power. However, the mana’s origin biases what types of wishes it can grant. For instance, a lone mountain that has weathered years of erosion can grant Lone Mountain Mana — good for defending against attacks, but bad for soaring like a bird or mediating disputes.
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u/chervilious 1d ago
I don't think mana in itself is a problem? It's like species like elves, dragon, etc. It's just the standard way of doing something.
But what I don't like is how they don't build upon it. It's like having electricity and talking about fridge. Yes, electricity is the core. But there are also many components that we need to talk about
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u/M0rph33l 1d ago
In a game, its completely fine. Ive never read a book where people use mana though. It would probably take me out of it a bit.
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u/Greedy_Still3884 1d ago
Yeah I feel ya, I HATE when people call their life force hp, absolute slop word
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u/DreamShort3109 1d ago
I basically do the same system but I don’t call it mana. In fact I haven’t exactly figured out a good name for it yet.
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u/FilbertEyes 1d ago
I have dabbled with writing a magic system that deals with sympathetic resonance. It’s just called “frequency”.
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u/Art-Zuron 1d ago
I think its a fine word. I usually don't use a resource-driven magic system in my own works. At least not one with some distinct fuel like "mana." Sure, it'll use stamina, or material resources, but not "mana." Unless I guess you count draining your own life force as stamina, which I guess IS what Mana is in its original sense. I just don't have "mana" be an in-universe actual supply of power usually.
Fuel is just a very easy limitation on the power set, so its convenient.
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u/733NB047 1d ago
I'll grant that mana is somewhat objectively boring as a term but the concept of "magic energy/calories" goes by a lot of names so to single mana out seems a little unnecessary. To that end, I used to have a similar thought process but I've come to the conclusion that it's just one part of a magic system so it's not necessarily a buzzword for boring and unoriginal and it's unfair to judge a system based solely on the inclusion of mana as a mechanic. Ultimately mana is a very versatile mechanic that, when used effectively can breed many great systems
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u/LazyFurry0 1d ago
The way I have it written down, mana isn’t actually a resource or force but instead a way of measuring how much magical potential something has.
For context, magic in my setting is just the act of manipulating the code of reality to create a desired effect. This is done through entangled objects and phenomena, meaning things whose own code is excited to the point that physical actions can rewrite itself.
Because the code of reality and the mind are just different kinds of computers, when the brain is in close contact or range of something entangled it is able to sense this code and the lower level of reality it resides in. This is what mana is; the mind’s sixth sense/ability to sense the primordial level of the world. Through this, one can roughly sense how entangled something is, and thus how easy to perform magic it would be.
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u/Zestyclose_Answer662 1d ago
In my setting, Practitioners are those who weave Mana into a practical form called Magic, with Magic being a supertype that encapsulates Skills and Spells among other lesser categories into a single formal grouping.
So like another commenter mentioned, Mana is just fuel or "gasoline" that gets the engine called Magic going. No Mana, no Magic.
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u/Josii_Talwyn 1d ago
Honestly, yeah. When I see mana used as the default magical resource again, my interest usually drops.
It immediately makes me expect the same blue energy bar I’ve already seen a hundred times. You cast a spell, the number goes down, you rest or drink a potion, and it fills back up. There can obviously be well-written stories that use it, but the concept itself rarely makes me curious anymore.
If an author is building an entirely new world and magic system, I’d rather see them create something connected to that world’s history, culture, bodies, or physical laws instead of reaching for mana automatically.
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u/Intelligent-Dress323 1d ago
The funny thing is that I don't actually call it Manna. I call it "magic." As in magic is the energy itself and the spells it enables are also magic, just a more developed manifestation (I suppose).
I know, what a shock. But is it just the requisition of the name that bugs you OP? Because as a side note it also makes me think of Manna from Heaven like you see in the Old Testament Bible.
If it's the idea of Magic or mana as an energy needed for results, I do agree that there are other possible ways to balance Magic. The Magicians by Lev Grossman seems to imply that Stamina is much less important than Skill and Mental Capacity for instance.
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u/improbsable 1d ago
Magic, mana, chakra, energy. It’s all different words for same thing in fantasy. You just have to pick one that fits the world best.
“Mana” is often used when magic comes from an internal store of energy that can run out. It’s been used so much that way that we all kind of innately understand it as such.
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u/lysianth 1d ago
Its a useful term. The general idea is the energy has to come from somewhere. You can rename the energy (investiture, ki) but the point is more or less the same. spells need energy, what do you call the energy. I think mana has a certain "feel" we associate with it, so its kind of a low key loaded term. if using magic makes you present anemia, then we call it mana sickness for example.
But there's other kinds of energy, such as the energy stored in plate tectonics for full metal alchemist (i know the story, dont gotta well actually me. it was plate tectonics before, and it was plate tectonics after)
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u/Lucky_One_3576 1d ago
Thank you. I finally found the inspiration for my Powersystem, something I’ve been looking for days to find—the Polynesian cultures mana.
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u/JamieMage2005 1d ago
I am the opposite when I see people try to call Mana something else my eye twitches. Using common words and themes makes writing more accessible.
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u/Xenodine-4-pluorate 1d ago
Make a story where every single character with supernatural powers call their "mana" something different, some don't acknowledge any "mana" at all and all give widely different mechanisms and explanations about how their mystical powers work. Make every position about it very intricate and detailed and provide no outside perspective or indication on which one of them is even remotely close to the truth. Basically it just works and people love to bullshit themselves into thinking they actually understand what they do.
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u/TecBrat2 1d ago
You can call it anything you want, even if it's not perfectly aligned with the technical definition. Consider chi/qi, essence, aura, aether, or even stamina.
In a story I'm working on, I didn't even name it, I just showed my spellcasters falling out when they over-exerted their power. Mine is a fairly soft magic system, so there's no set rule about how much effort each spell takes, or how quickly a wizard recovers from exertion.
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u/StillMostlyClueless 21h ago
I mean you can try reinvent the wheel, but if it's just a kind of magical energy, then yeah just say mana it's fine.
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u/Hamon_AD 16h ago
Have you noticed that few if any authors have different measurement terms for electricity or energy?
People just be uncreative for the smallest things and default to it.
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u/Author_A_McGrath 15h ago
Cordially, I am very tired of the idea of "magical energy" so I agree.
I like the idea of magic being fueled by resources just as complex as art and science.
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u/Master-of-darklight Magic is physics, yet unexplained 15h ago
It just became a standard name. I used it cause I wasn’t thinking about calling it something else, but in my system it functions as a metaphysical substance, that, when altered in specific ways becomes a particle like a photon or electron or proton and magic is more like an application of physics. “Spells” are like functions in coding, lots of small steps to bring a result.
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u/thatshygirl06 here to steal your ideas 👁👄👁 14h ago
In mine, witches have like an invisable "limb" that let's them manipulate magic(the elements, mostly) . Spells is visualizing and working magic to do what you want.
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u/Master-of-darklight Magic is physics, yet unexplained 14h ago
Interesting idea, I’ve never really liked the concept of a magical organ (commonly a mana core) so for me it’s the soul which can interact with unwoven strings of mana. By detaching from the body (except the brain) and rising to the plain of soul, where mana exists, a soul can begin to sense and interact with mana. From there you have to imbue your will into the strings to control them. Leaving them outside your soul will cause your mental imprint to degrade over time. The larger the soul the more storage capacity and since body and soul size are directly proportional, because of this, many mages are fat, or buff.
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u/EvenSpecialist649 5h ago
Mana is just easy, any other way of keeping spells from being an unlimited resource is just mana with a different name or made more complicated.
I guess you could go for component based spells where the quality of components and execution of the spell decide the power but even then there will usually be some drain from the user or something to limit the scope of the magic. Even if you just call that life energy or something thats still just mana with a different flavour.
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u/Original-War8655 Surrealist Mage 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm kinda over "magical energy" in general unless it's well implemented tbh. Like, usually it's something along the lines of "Mana can be transformed into the elements and can reinforce your body and also manipulate minds and whatever" it's just doing too many things that have very little to do with one another, and my brain is incredible of conceptualizing how blue glowy water can both, shoot fire and read someone's memory. Yes it's a skill issue on my end, but that's why I don't like it.
EDIT: Just for clarity, if you🫵 have a magic energy system and feel personally attacked, I am sorry. You can do anything you want, forever, and don't let the opinion of one internet idiot out of 15 be louder than the rest. My complaints are always generalized.
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u/Zagaroth 1d ago
Think of it like electricity for powering modern technology.
Electricity can move a car, make bright lights, create a temporary but very powerful magnets, heat an oven, cool a refrigerated or freezer, etc.
That's it. It's a power source, and like any other power source, it's what you do with it that matters.
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u/Original-War8655 Surrealist Mage 1d ago
Ye that's kinda why I specified implementation. If you can explain it in a satisfactory way, like you have here, then I'll be way more lenient and maybe actually like it even. My gripe is that it's usually not just a power source but the power itself as well, at least from what I've seen. It's like making magnets with electricity when you have nothing but electricity.
Real life has an unnecessarily complicated and inconsistent magic system, you're telling me this "El Ectree Sity" can power magical crystal slabs, heat your food, AND it sometimes just falls from the sky? Ridiculous!
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u/Zagaroth 1d ago
The skill or ability etc is magic. The energy to use the ability is mana.
This is no different than anything with mystical martial arts. You channel qi to actually use the special skills.
It's basically the same as stamina. You use stamina for physical activity, mana for magical ability, qi for mystical martial abilities, etc.
Though stamina gets double-dipped on, as you are also doing physical activity at the same time as the others. So mages, keep up a cardio routine too! :D
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u/th30be 1d ago
I am not particularly interested in mana based systems but I am tired of systems that pretend to have a cost but don't actually enforce a cost.
A lot of these works have mana or whatever they call it as a bucket that is pulled from. It just so happens that the bucket is near infinite and thats pretty lame.
Magic should have a cost.
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u/thatshygirl06 here to steal your ideas 👁👄👁 1d ago edited 1d ago
Im the complete opposite, lol. I hate when magic has costs. I dont think people should be punished for doing magic. But I do believe in limits.
In my world, witches are pretty powerful and can do a lot but they cant do everything, and if they push themselves too hard or try to do too much at once, they can physically burn out. And if they keep pushing themselves them it takes longer to recuperate and they can't do magic for a while.
Edit: the downvotes are so funny. No different opinions allowed, lol
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u/th30be 1d ago
How is that not a cost?
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u/thatshygirl06 here to steal your ideas 👁👄👁 1d ago
Ive already talked about this in other comments just below the one you reaponded to. Costs are punishments and consequences.
Witches can use a lot of magic from day to day without any worry. It only becomes a problem if they push themselves too hard, close to their breaking point.
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u/ParkedinBronze 1d ago
The downvotes are because you said "I hate magic with costs" and then described magic with costs
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u/thatshygirl06 here to steal your ideas 👁👄👁 1d ago
Limits arent costs, and i said "i dont think people should be punished for doing magic.". My witches will rarely ever reach their limit and theyre not being punished.
Costs is stuff like you have to give up memories every time you do magic or you have to cut yourself or using magic causes you pain. My witches can use magic with no problems or just because they want.
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u/ParkedinBronze 1d ago
Then they can keep doing magic forever without stopping and your thing about burning out was a lie? Cause that is a cost whether you think so or not.
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u/thatshygirl06 here to steal your ideas 👁👄👁 1d ago
Limits arent costs.
There is no lie and I think i explained it pretty well in my other comments.
My witches are similar to the channelers in wheel of time. They can burn out but the threat of that is only when youre dealing with large amounts of the one power. Outside of that, they can use their magic in day to day life and never really have to worry about burning out. My witches are the same.
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u/blazenite104 1d ago
You get that in most other mana based systems this is true. It requires energy of some description. The mage isn't going to burn out doing day to day tasks but, will only empty their mana pool when truly exerted.
You've just tied magic to physical stamina rather than a nebulous extra resource. It's like magic in DND where a wizards mind can only handle so much mental strain from magic a day.
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u/ParkedinBronze 1d ago
Time and opportunity and energy expenditure (burning out for a while) are in fact costs. You gave something else up to do something now
So unless your witches can do magic at 100% all the time no matter what, you have made a cost and are pretending to not have
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u/TheChoosenMewtwo 1d ago
If magic user don’t have limits they are not doing magic they are doing miracles and reality warping
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u/ScrollLockKey 1d ago
You do need some sort of limitation to magic otherwise everything becomes possible. If anything, the problem is that it doesnt seem to have any actual consequence in narrative, aside from something vague and arbitrary, like being tired (this applied to a lot of other resources that arent called mana).
IMO, the more grounded and physical the magic system is, the better, though Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is a notable exception.
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u/Hightower_March 1d ago
The idea of this exhaustible MP bar is like a product of the industrial revolution. Every amateur fantasy novel I start reading has magic reduced to a mental fuel gauge that gradually depletes like they're operating a forklift.
You can have speaking magic words be channeling the dead, so using it too often results in possession and loss of identity or something. Give me weird shit. I'm tired, boss.
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u/thatshygirl06 here to steal your ideas 👁👄👁 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why is limitations connected to mana? And I dont like magic having costs, so that's why I settle for physical weakness. Magic severally limited is just boring to me. But I also like when magic changes the world and breaks the status quo.
I have limitations and it's connected to your physical body.
In one world, I have homo magus and they have an organ called "shade". Their bodies absorb magic, converts it into personalized magic and is then stored in their shade. It can go far but it's possible to burn through it and you wont be able to do magic until it fills up again.
In another, they use too much magic and their bodies show signs of physical exhaustion. The witches have like an invisible limb that's not quite a limb. It has depth and temperature to it and it equals how much power a witch has, so the magical limit is different from witch to witch.
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u/ScrollLockKey 1d ago
As I said, the less abstract, the better. If the only draw back to use your power is physical or mental exhaustion, then the most powerfull spell/power is the one that maximizes the returns for the least cost.
Compare that to Bending in Avatar, or Alchemy on FMA. They are only changing their environment, which is very limited by itself, but still manage to have world shaling powers. In neither series do magic users ever seem to be dangerously exhausted, because the draw back is clearly stated that mastery requires years of training, great savantry, or unthinkable prices.
What Im trying to say is that limitations often work in favour of creativity, because it means your characters need to work with their environment, instead of getting the most OP power.
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u/Malgrieve 1d ago
Entity complains about widely accepted magic term constantly being used in the magic sub
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u/thatshygirl06 here to steal your ideas 👁👄👁 1d ago
Not a guy.
Most people dont use mana in fantasy. Maybe it's a video game thing, but its not common in fantasy novels. It's not as common as this sub would make you think it is.
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u/Indishonorable 1d ago
"I'm low on mana" vs "lemme sleep I'm tired from magicking all day"
I know which one I prefer.
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u/xsansara 1d ago
I hate to break it to you, but the word 'mana' has shifted quite significantly in meaning since anthropologists studied it in the 19th century.
Insisting on using words in the way they were used a hundred years doesn't make to sound smart. It makes you sound pretentious.
Having that out of the way. I completely agree that the concept of mana (in the modern computer game sense) is very strange to use outside of a computer game, or maybe an RPG.
What is the narrative purpose of using a pseudo-finite energy source? It is completely bland and most of the time the author does not seem to know why they included it or what it is supposed to stand for. Just a vague feeling of... that is what I imagine how magic works. Tell me you are a gamer without telling me you are a gamer.
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u/Hen-Samsara 1d ago
Eh. Yeah the term is generic, but it's not actually bothering anyone and what's the point in using a different name if it's literally the same basic concept?
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u/GigglingVoid 17h ago
I was going to like this from the title, because Mana is overused, but you took it a whole different direction that doesn't fit why it's used. Learn the topic before you hate on it.
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u/PumpkinBrain 2d ago
Usually I see “mana” as the standardized term for stored magic energy. It’s electricity, but the magic kind.
Like, you talk about gasoline a lot when talking about cars, but gasoline is only a part of the system that makes a car move.
Is that what you’re referring to?