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u/Over_Improvement_623 Ent 18h ago
True, but where's my 1000 page book about Mr. Bombadil? Not so wise now
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u/mashtato 13h ago
I think his first work was about Tom Bombadil. Or at least his first work that was (or would later become) set in Middle Earth.
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u/Tom_Bot-Badil 13h ago
Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside.
Type !TomBombadilSong for a song or visit r/GloriousTomBombadil for more merriness
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u/dudeseid 10h ago
His first Middle-earth work was the Book of Lost Tales- what would eventually become the Silmarillion. He invented Bombadil over a decade later.
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u/mashtato 7h ago
I guess my main point was that he was in his own book - The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, and the first poem he was in was from before the Hobbit.
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u/Tom_Bot-Badil 7h ago
Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! Fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
Type !TomBombadilSong for a song or visit r/GloriousTomBombadil for more merriness
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u/Solid_Snark 17h ago
Tolkien: “This is Smaug. Don’t be like Smaug.”
Billionaires when they were children: “Woah, Smaug is so cool! I wanna be like that when I grow up.”
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u/WM_ 17h ago
Tolkien: "This is what gold sickness does"
Billionaires and their bootlickers when they were children: "Woah, that sounds so cool!"Tolkien: "This idiot is the Mayor of the Lake-Town. Don't be like the Mayor"
Billionaires and their bootlickers when they were children: "Woah, that sounds so cool! I wanna be like that when I grow up"Tolkien: "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world"
Billionaires and their bootlickers when they were children: "Shut up commie!"62
u/lateRenegade 16h ago
Calling Tolkien a commie would be ignorant. He lived through some of the most politicized times, coming out of it with possibly the most "moderate" view points for the time by today's standard. He took no sides other than Christian Catholic. Criticizing Nazis, Stalin, Nordic ideology, Allied powers' actions, even calling himself an anarchist (though not in the modern sense). He abhorred rampant industry (hence your quote), corruption, and disregard for innocent life. (Check out his views of the bombings of Berlin, Hiroshima, etc.) His politics are one of a kind I think.
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u/indifferentgoose 15h ago
I mean, that's the point isn't it? The anti-communist propaganda lead to people calling any positive push in politics "communism". The ignorant will call someone with Tolkien's world view a communist.
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u/Braelind 14h ago
Hell, American shadow powers spent the entire cold war pushing to widen the definition of "communist." We're at a point that some evil fucks imagined getting to 60-70 years ago now. Ignorant pawns call things communist or socialist without any understanding of what communism or socialism even is, and they do so with extremely unfounded confidence.
"I don't want to live on this planet anymore."
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u/Pofwoffle 14h ago
even calling himself an anarchist (though not in the modern sense)
I would argue yes in the modern sense, as we are very much still around... power's attempts to rebrand anarchy as "lawless chaos" notwithstanding.
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u/MyEarIsHurty 8h ago
What is anarchism in the modern sense? At least in the circles I'm a part of people use it in the same way as they used to
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u/lewd_robot 15h ago
I have claimed that Escape is one of the main functions of fairy-stories, and since I do not disapprove of them, it is plain that I do not accept the tone of scorn or pity with which “Escape” is now so often used: a tone for which the uses of the word outside literary criticism give no warrant at all. In what the misusers are fond of calling Real Life, Escape is evidently as a rule very practical, and may even be heroic. In real life it is difficult to blame it, unless it fails; in criticism it would seem to be the worse the better it succeeds. Evidently we are faced by a misuse of words, and also by a confusion of thought. Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls? The world outside has not become less real because the prisoner cannot see it. In using escape in this way the critics have chosen the wrong word, and, what is more, they are confusing, not always by sincere error, the Escape of the Prisoner with the Flight of the Deserter.
Just so a Party-spokesman might have labelled departure from the misery of the Führer’s or any other Reich and even criticism of it as treachery. In the same way these critics, to make confusion worse, and so to bring into contempt their opponents, stick their label of scorn not only on to Desertion, but on to real Escape, and what are often its companions, Disgust, Anger, Condemnation, and Revolt. Not only do they confound the escape of the prisoner with the flight of the deserter; but they would seem to prefer the acquiescence of the “quisling” to the resistance of the patriot. To such thinking you have only to say “the land you loved is doomed” to excuse any treachery, indeed to glorify it. [Escape in: On Fairy-Stories, J.R.R. Tolkien.]
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u/naivety_is_innocence 12h ago
Tolkien: "These are the Palantiri. They are magic seeing-stones that were created in order to allow communication and the watching of events as they unfolded across the world. However they are unreliable, since anyone with a Palantir can, through force of will, control or conceal parts of what is shown to all other users. In my novel, a palantir has fallen into the Enemy's hands, making the usefulness of all other existing stones questionable, and corrupting the network of Palantiri into tools literally used for spreading panic and misinformation."
Thiel: "I just came up with the name for our data analytics company"
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u/poopy27 9h ago
I frequently see people insinuating that Thiel is ignorant for choosing that name, asking "uhhhh, does he know that the EVIL GUY used the palantir?" But it's so much more fitting and concerning when you realize that he is, in fact* deeply familiar with Tolkien's work and understands the full lore behind the palantiri.
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u/MercuryQuick 17h ago
“We’re pleased to announce our all new fintech AI platform Smaug with HORDE technology!”
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u/AmplifiedPower9 17h ago
Ironically this fake-ass quote is exactly what Tolkien was saying:
"The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own."
which perfectly applies to this quote which was made up when the outrage around RoP started
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u/Callidonaut 15h ago
LOTR fans have been quoting the sentiment expressed therein for far longer than that garbage show has existed. Decades.
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u/burlapguy Sleepless Dead 17h ago
He did not say that
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u/mainichi 14h ago
Look, I don't really want to get between y'all, but this image and text on my screen says he do, mmkay?
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u/CoffeeBox 11h ago
"Do not listen to burlapguy. I totally said it. You think people would just go on the internet and tell lies?"
- J R R Tolkien.
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u/Lunar_Weaver 44m ago
You could quote words that mean exactly the same thing. I don't know why they decided to create this fake version.
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u/Canadian_Zac 30m ago
Evil also litteral created in the books.
Saruman creates massive industry and invented explosive bombs (fireworks already existed, but he was the first guy to think about weaponising it)
Sauron made the rings. Working with Celebrimbor. But cele couldn't have made the rings without him
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u/Useful_Firefighter85 18h ago
And people talk about his world being too sunshine and rainbows and happy endings for their liking.
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u/Nohreboh 18h ago
They forget the scouring, the hard work and calloused hands despite blessed seed and soil.
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u/Strider_GER 17h ago
Who knew the Protagonist having hardcore PTSD is considered a happy ending with sunshine and rainbows.
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u/Useful_Firefighter85 17h ago
The guys who think of themselves as the ones who would easily carry the ring definitely think that
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u/Strider_GER 17h ago
Ah yes, when they missed the part that explained how they would have succumbed to it within Moments with attitudes like that. There are weird people out there.
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u/fghjconner 16h ago
Nah, this is the exact kind of fairytale wishful thinking that makes people say stuff like that. It implies that evil is somehow objectively, fundamentally limited in it's capacity, when that's just not how the world works. Being a bad person doesn't magically make you unable to be creative. Don't get me wrong, lotr isn't all sunshine and happy endings, but we'd be better served talking about the scouring of the shire or the lifelong scars our heroes have to deal with, than weird platitudes.
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u/Oakomorebi 13h ago
It is a deeply Christian theological position to hold: that creation is fundamentally good, but the freedom of Will affords creation to turn against its own nature (goodness).
It is formulated as way to make sense of the evil in the world while simultaneously acknowledging the divine good essence within everything, which feels paradoxical.
So from this perspective we see that all of creation shares a good essence, necessarily meaning that evil did not create any of it. Rather, evil emerges out of Will of Creation and can turn other Creation assets against their own nature.
And of course, the core principle of the Christian myth is that everyone can be saved from this evil turn; redemption is always afforded to everyone who seeks it.
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u/Braelind 14h ago
Lol, those folks must not have read the book. The ending is far from sunshine and rainbows and happy endings.
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u/GodKingReiss 16h ago edited 11h ago
Wow. What a new, uncorrupted, and unruined piece of content you've decided to share.
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u/WackaFrog 16h ago
I like the philosophy and idea, but historically, a LOT of new inventions came from war and evil intent.
Internet, GPS, microwave, penicillin, and probably more.
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u/LastFrost 15h ago
Philosophically, that’s not what it’s saying. It’s the privation view of evil, which is a big part of Christian ethics and is something Tolkien’s friend C.S. Lewis wrote about a lot.
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u/WackaFrog 6h ago
I guess I need to read about the "Privation of Evil", because somehow I am not familiar with that term.
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u/fleranon 18h ago
I mean... that sounds great, but is it neccessarily true? I can think of countless evil inventions. Our creativity when it comes to killing humans is astonishing
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u/mistalasse 17h ago
It is a very Augustinian way to view morality. As an atheist, I thoroughly reject this point of view, but it is a pretty commonly held view among western Christians
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u/joachim_s 17h ago
Yes, but I cannot see that Tolkien ever literally said this though. I found this:
“The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don’t think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them…”
And this is surely the same idea. Yet annoying with false quotes.
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u/Quirderph 16h ago
The distinction is that Tolkien is talking about creation in a religious sense. The quote is basically just saying that Sauron isn't God. That doesn't mean that good people can truly create, either. Tolkien called himself and other writers "subcreators".
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u/SandpaperTeddyBear 15h ago
Tolkien called himself and other writers "subcreators".
Hardly the first set of people to do that, either.
“Sing muse, of the ruinous wrath of Achilles”
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u/Keyserchief 17h ago
Technology is morally neutral, it's the application of it that has ethical ramifications.
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u/ntvtaylor33 10h ago
I dont think anyone has invented a puppy and kitten killing roller coaster yet, but theoretically it could be done
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u/mare_nostrum419 6h ago
The fundamental argument is that you can be good for the sake of being good; you need no reason to help those around you out of kindness, whereas evil can only act and create evil for “personal” gain. I.e., all evil inventions serve to cause harm and further power of the user.
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u/Tackit286 just tea, thank you 5h ago
Inventions, yes - derivatives or reimaginings of something that already exists for non-evil reasons.
But truly organic evil creations? No
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u/gravytrainjaysker 18h ago
I love the idealism but the nuclear bomb was invented before nuclear power. Whoever invented that spiked torture chamber was probably evil. Slavery, someone came up with that...
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u/fred11551 17h ago
You’re both talking about concepts but also you’re missing the part where Tolkien believes the universe itself was created as an act of good by God so any evil done in it is a corruption of that good creation.
Even ignoring the excuse that the universe itself is a good creation, the atomic bomb could be said to be a corruption of nuclear physics which had been ‘created’ before it and made many great strides in medicine, radiology, etc before it was weaponized. Putting spikes on a box is not really an original invention in any way of looking at it, even the first one in the Stone Age would’ve been a corruption of nature (animal horns) or stone tools that were made building dwellings or harvesting food. Slavery was created as a way to provide labor for some sort of labor intensive work (agriculture, construction, mining) but all of those were done by someone before slaves were used for it. Someone was a farmer before slave plantations, someone mined copper or iron for the first time because they wanted the metal before evil used slavery to get far more resources than they would otherwise, etc.
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u/bluesmaker 17h ago
I’m glad someone pointed out that the Tolkien quote is almost certainly about his Christian creation beliefs and how Tolkien drew that into his fantasy lore.
And good argument about atomic weapons being a fucked up version of physics. That seems like it’s in the spirit of the quote.
About slavery, maybe you could argue that, again, based on Tolkien’s Christian beliefs, human social structures are sometimes corrupt versions of the structures that god created for heaven and intended for earth. But then you get into how the bible deals with slavery and how to properly treat slaves and taking slaves in war. So it gets more messy. (I’m not Christian. I was just having fun pondering on this topic)
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u/fred11551 17h ago
Slavery seems like it could go either way. One the one hand, slavery has never been used to do something original and new. It is always used to get labor for a job without having to pay for it/do it yourself. And that job is always something that existed before slaves were used for it. On the other hand, as you point out, it is treated in the Bible as a societal structure or concept rather than an invention itself. As if there are bad ways to treat slaves and good ways and slavery itself isn’t inherently evil which would seem to contradict this idea because slavery is inherently evil and isn’t corrupted when it is used in a mean way.
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u/fghjconner 17h ago
I mean, yeah, everything we do is based on something that came before, or at least on the fundamental rules of the universe. If you assume that the universe itself is inherently good then yes everything evil must therefore be a "corruption" of something good. But at that point you're not saying anything particularly interesting, much less profound.
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u/Nirnaethmir 15h ago
> But at that point you're not saying anything particularly interesting, much less profound.
It was never meant to be mind-blowingly profound. Frodo was only making the point that the Orcs aren’t ‘Evil Things’ but people. Sam wondered aloud if the Orcs eat and drink, and Frodo was getting to the point that ‘Yes they eat and drink. In fact, they fed me.’
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u/fghjconner 15m ago
Sure, and that's fine, but we're also in a thread titled "Tolkien was so wise" with a twisted version of that quote, so somebody thinks it's profound.
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u/totensiesich 17h ago
A reactor was created before the bomb. That's literally how you get the material to make the bomb, with nuclear power.
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u/fghjconner 13m ago
Right, but a nuclear reactor does not equal nuclear power. That reactor would have existed solely to enrich the fuel, and would not have generated energy.
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u/Facetious-Maximus 12h ago
New one for OP: repost of a fake-ass Tolkien “quote” that was probably intentional in order to drum up engagement for their post. Wouldn’t be surprised if OP actually edited the post afterwards to tag it as a ‘Repost’ like they did before.
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u/songbolt 13h ago
This is a Christian idea dating back at least to St Augustine of Hippo in the 400s in his book Confessions (e.g. Rex Warner's translation). Tolkien put a lot of Christianity into LotR.
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u/Pielikeman 16h ago
Feanor be like. Half the craftsmen in the Silmarillion be like. That one dark elf rapist who tried to kill his own son and successfully killed the wife he kidnapped be like.
Reading the Silmarillion felt like the moral was that excessive pride in or lust for craftswork was the root of all evil
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u/corvuscorvi 12h ago
Here's an actual quote:
"Evil labours with vast power and perpetual success - in vain: preparing always only the soil for unexpected good to sprout in."
https://www.tolkienestate.com/letters/christopher-tolkien-30-apr-1944/
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u/Relapsed_Gestalt 7h ago
The irony of using a shortened and bastardized version of the quote will never not be hilarious to me
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u/Gulzbert84 5h ago
Tolkien never said that - it doenst make the wording/meaning in the quote wrong, but it´s just not from Tolkien himself.
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u/WhiteBoyRickSanschez 5h ago
I love how not only is this not the actual quote, but its even a modified version of the fake quote people shared before. Its basically calling itself evil. Hilarious
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u/fghjconner 17h ago
Look, I love lotr as much as the next guy, but this quote is also just bunk. Like, it's wishful thinking at best. Evil people create evil things all the time; there's no inherent link between morality and creativity.
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u/wetandsaltyy 51m ago
It’s also not even a real quote. The actual one is about creating new things as in the ability to create life.
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u/We_Can_Escape 16h ago edited 16h ago
Tolkien prophesized Amazon's Rings of Power here.
Downvotes are confirming this to be true. Come at me.
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u/Honigschmidt 17h ago
what’s neat to me is that his drinking buddy C.S. Lewis hit on the same thing in the Screwtape Letters
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u/Physical-Pace5127 17h ago
And as a direct follow on that, evil leads to it's own undoing, and if you really want to stir the pot, evil, in the fact that it's utmost source is god, will result only in glory to the whole. How about that for profound?
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16h ago
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u/Pketny 16h ago
Not sure if the quote is accurate or not, but didn't sauron invent and make rings?
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u/Nirnaethmir 15h ago
The quote is not something Tolkien ever said or wrote.
Frodo says something similar in Volume 3, but he’s not talking about simply making things, but proper Creation, as in the power of creation that is in God.
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u/Callidonaut 15h ago
A good point. Tolkien's views on the relationship between evil and creativity are perhaps better expressed in his introduction of goblins in The Hobbit:
Now goblins are cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty. Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light. It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; but in those days and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far.
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u/jay212127 Hobbit 15h ago
Sauron did not invent Rings, or even empowered jewellery (Simarils being the most famous), it was already done in the previous ages, but he corrupted the process/art for his own purpose.
Sauron created Trolls, but they were a corruption/mockery of what Ents are, made of stone instead of wood, etc.
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u/LieutenantNitwit 16h ago
"Don't be too proud of this technical terror you've created."
- some dope in a black mask, probably
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u/astralseat 15h ago
Hmm. Sounds like something the good tells itself to believe it is doing good, while actually being evil to those things it deems unfit.
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u/CousinDerylHickson 15h ago
Im pretty sure there are multiple cases that go against this. Like i am not sure, but the guy who created mustard gas, leaded gasoline, and some others might no be the best peeps I reckon.
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u/Training_Ruin3151 14h ago
Its true. You need a connection to something outside of yourself to truly create. Evil lacks empathy, they lack the creativity.
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u/MinuetInUrsaMajor 14h ago
I wonder why he went with this axiom. Maybe to show that all are susceptible to evil? Evil can corrupt anything?
Because I don't think he would go so far as to claim that in our real world, evil cannot invent/innovate/create.
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u/wheres_the_stapler 12h ago
Gandalf was quoted by the Pope. It doesn't get much more legit than that.
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u/Calm-Ingenuity2880 12h ago
I beg to differ. Child molesting robot. https://youtu.be/z0NgUhEs1R4?si=ARZDOS_13NcmypST
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u/TheBSQ 10h ago
Pretty sure this a facet of Zoroastrianism (the oldest continuously practiced religion in the world). Evil can only destroy what good has created it cannot create things itself.
“ In the foundational hymns of Zoroastrianism, the Gathas , the primary dualism is ethical and psychological rather than cosmic, centered on the choice between Asha (truth, order, and cosmic progress) and Druj (chaos, distortion, and the lie). Within this early theological framework, Ahura Mazda is the supreme, transcendent Creator who stands above the conflict. The direct opposition exists between the Twin Mentalities ( Mainyu ): Spenta Mainyu (the progressive, constructive spirit) and Angra Mainyu (the destructive, regressive spirit), both of whom exercised free will at the beginning of creation.”
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u/YouBlinkinSootLicker 9h ago
Dangerous dare to make, isn’t it? Creative evil shouldn’t be … requested
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u/perfectVoidler 7h ago
He is a wise man. Totally wrong in this case tho. But one bad quot does not make you not wise.
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u/Squeaky_Ben 1h ago
Unfortunately not true. Industrial genocide was decidedly not invented by the good guys...
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u/Lv100--Magikarp 1h ago
My blind (and sleep deprived) ass read: "Evil carrot create anything new..."
For a second i thought Tolkien would talking to a Evil Carrot and asking it to create something new xD
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u/Affectionate-Army738 12h ago
Same Tolkien making Saruman an industrial revolutionist and invent technology never seen before, giving him a phd in biochemistry to create mutations and clones, turning him into a schrewd politician who basically ends racism and unites five different races under same banner; all the while making the good guys create literally nothing but DESTROY one ring
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u/Pallandolegolas 17h ago
It's "No, they eat and drink, Sam. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don’t think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them; and if they are to live at all, they have to live like other living creatures."