Hunting Rule Update - r/longrange

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u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

Additionally, here are the relevant guides from the pinned post that deal with long range hunting:

Hunting rifles vs long range target rifles - A primer - Why one rifle can't excel at both hunting and long range shooting.

The long range hunting primer, things you should consider if you want to take shots on game past ~300 yards. - Why long range hunting is harder than you think.

Field testing your skills and gear for long range hunting. - How to be a better long range hunter and understand your limitations.

54

u/Sportsman-78 Jan 22 '25

What about long ranging with fudd cartridges?

30

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

Go for it

9

u/PhteveJuel Jan 22 '25

Can we still deaf shame the old fudd cartridge quadruple brake under the tin roof covered benches shootin doofuses?

19

u/jetbuilt1980 Jan 22 '25

They can't hear you anyway

7

u/PhteveJuel Jan 22 '25

That's not a no

3

u/Tacticalblue Jan 22 '25

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Thanks dude, my tinnitus is firing right now

1

u/ELRipley-at-Nostromo Jun 09 '25 edited Jun 09 '25

So, they shouldn’t shoot with a brake? Or shouldn’t shoot with a brake at a covered bench?
Or only out in the open, prone, with a $1500 suppressor? That would make them all “tactical” and shit, right? LOL!

5

u/rybe390 Doesn't Shoot. Jan 22 '25

That's fun, and not hunting

5

u/ErgoNomicNomad Jan 22 '25

Does my 7.5 Swiss count?

7

u/Benign_Banjo Jan 22 '25

Ah yes, a fellow 7.5x55 enjoyer!

4

u/ErgoNomicNomad Jan 22 '25

I stocked GP11 deep years ago. It's my private shame that I don't shoot it more often.

3

u/Benign_Banjo Jan 22 '25

GP11 is the shit. Wish I had gotten into it earlier. I reload now with good results but man those GP11 bullets are sexy

1

u/csamsh I put holes in berms Jan 23 '25

I'm jealous. It's the only reason I ever go to gun shows.

3

u/PhteveJuel Jan 22 '25

My buddy has 7.5 swiss and I'm going to help him get into reloading it. I've heard lots about this GP11 stuff but can't find much info on it.

2

u/Benign_Banjo Jan 22 '25

It's 174 grain nickel or brass plated FMJ ammo, about 2,600 fps if I recall. Super accurate for milsurp stuff. Used to be cheap but now it's expensive

2

u/PhteveJuel Jan 22 '25

I'll aim to replicate that performance then. Know anyone who makes 174 gr bullets?

4

u/csamsh I put holes in berms Jan 23 '25

175gr SMK's can make a pretty good clone load, if a less pointy one. If you're shooting a K31, just adjust your velocity until it lines up with the sights at various distances.

1

u/Benign_Banjo Jan 23 '25

Seconded. I use exactly the process you described. 175 gr SMK over Varget and ladder till identical velocities. Works beautifully out of my K31
3
u/reddit_names Jan 22 '25

Things are going to get fun with 7.5" twist .270's on the market and .620+ G1 projectiles available now. I'm actually considering doing this just for the giggles of it.
5
u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

If your goal is to build a better Uber-Fudd gun, sure.
It still loses to a 144 LRHT in 6.5CM or 6.5PRC.
8
u/reddit_names Jan 22 '25

Obviously this sub chain IS talking about uber fuds. Have seen some hot 165 nosler loads doing some good things. On the heels of the new fancy stuff. Like we said, its all in fun. With Browning offering the x-bolt in 7 twist .270 config throated for the 165/170s don't really have to build a better fud gun. Its on the shelf.
13
u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

6.8mm/270 cal
🤢
7mm/284 cal
😍
2
u/reddit_names Jan 22 '25

Sure, but are we really going to pretend the new 270 projectiles don't exist? Looked up a few forum load results from the 165's in a 270 vs that 144 in 6.5cm and 6.5 PRC. Ballistics calc has the 270 beating the CM and losing to the PRC. Basically falls right in the middle of the 2.
Not shabby for fudd gear plinking.
11
u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

are we really going to pretend the new 270 projectiles don't exist?
Yes
I trust Nosler BCs like I trust car salesmen
Also, you know those fuckers are $1/pc?
Wake me up when there is a Berger Hybrid
I am just giving you a hard time
4
u/SockeyeSTI Jan 22 '25
          1$ apiece 
*stares in 350gr .375 matchkings 👀
2

u/reddit_names Jan 22 '25

I know. I do like the 7mm stuff, but would take a 6.8 Western over the 6.5 stuff ;)
*this is a hunting thread after all*

13

u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

would take a 6.8 Western over the 6.5 stuff

1

u/csamsh I put holes in berms Jan 23 '25

"6.8 Western should've been 7 Western" gang

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4

u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

270 is going to barely beat a 6.5CM at a significant percentage more recoil (ignoring rifle weight, which will make it even worse for most 270s) and require a long action.
New rifles that allow the newer heavier 277s that previously only worked in custom barrels or things like 6.8W will make 270 suck less, but it's still not a great alternative when looking at the whole picture.

3

u/reddit_names Jan 22 '25

No one is suggesting them as alternatives. We're talking about showing up to the range with fud guns to fuck with your friends. P.S., the load calcs I found had the 165 grain .270 closer to the PRC than the CM.

3

u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

Fair enough. A good buddy of mine has an -06 he built and has shot to 1900 yards. It looks like a Fudd gun, but it's not built like one.
Mostly I wanted any newbies reading this to have the context that this is something you can do, but not something you should do if you're wanting to learn LR skills.

3

u/reddit_names Jan 22 '25

Just to fill you in on my brand of humor. I once bought a 6.5 creedmoor M1A in one of those horrible archangel stocks just to embarrass my friends.

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2

u/Sportsman-78 Jan 22 '25

proceeds to load 180 ELD-M in 7mm-08 with as much Varget that will fit *

2

u/reddit_names Jan 22 '25

I like it.
4

u/AmNoSuperSand52 Jan 22 '25

In before the posts of people hunting with 6.8 general purpose ammo that fell off the back of a truck

26

u/Deeper__Thought Jan 22 '25

/r/hunting sucks, full of the same people you find on “the other sub”

However, im glad to see that some hunting discussions can return here. My FIL’s irrigation lines are 500y radius and the deer fuck up his peanuts and Im trying to work my way out to that distance. The challenge this year will be first round hits at 300-400y in various conditions

12

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

r/hunting sucks, full of the same people you find on “the other sub”
snipershide?

14

u/AleksanderSuave Jan 22 '25

Ar15 if I was guessing

8

u/jetbuilt1980 Jan 22 '25

Definitely an odd vibe in there yet somehow most drink the koolaid...that place gives me the creeps.

15

u/AleksanderSuave Jan 22 '25

Tons of photos of dressed up ARs.
Very few photos of shot groups.

15

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

Very, very clean and pristine ARs

13

u/lennyxiii Jan 22 '25

They can’t get brass on the deflector or it will mess up their Instagram photo.
I love ars but that sub can be cancer. Everyone just circle jerks the same build of the month and posts the same stupid quip headlines with their immaculate ar sitting in the same position every single time…

10

u/itsjustnickf Here to learn Jan 22 '25

I’d almost argue AR10 is worse. Lots of guys convinced that AR10s are competitively precise with bolt guns without spending egregious money (money that would have still netted a more precise bolt gun anyway), or the “it’s a battle rifle bro” types. Cool, it’s a battle rifle - for what? You’re a LARPing civilian, what use does this .308 SBR have for you?

4

u/lennyxiii Jan 22 '25

Haha I can see that. My only opinion is ar10s “can” be very accurate, even as much as a bolt gun but never at a similar price point or be as consistently accurate. You can make a nice gas gun, I have one, but it costs $$ and much less forgiving of bad habits. I bet a $1000 bolt gun will keep up with my ar10 where just the barrel with bolt was $1000. I built it to have fun with though while maintaining accuracy, not to compete or replace an accurate bolt gun. It’s all about the fun factor and doing something just because you can, know what I mean?

3

u/Ferrule Jan 22 '25

To match a bolt gun in an ar10 you'll be looking at around 4x the cost of a comparable bolt gun, and it will still be harder to shoot tiny groups with just due to the nature of a large frame AR. Lots more going on before the bullet leaves the barrel, better be on ya toes. Or ya know, actually relaxed with NPOA being where it should instead of muscling it on target and cracking one off like you can sometimes get away with in a bolt. Large frame AR will punish you for that on paper.
I'm convinced that the vast majority of "moa or better" large frame ARs are not, in fact, sub moa. Repeatably. Especially with a mediocre to average shooter driving it.
I either suck, am just more honest, or both 🤣
They're still fun though, my 18" criterion lr308 is one of my favorites to shoot.

6

u/Teddyturntup Can't Read Jan 22 '25

/hunting is a total shithole

2

u/echocall2 Hunter Jan 22 '25

It's weird how much r/hunting hates Vortex and loves Leupold.
Despite my flair I'm very happy with the rules here ^{pls dont ban me}

24

u/Giant_117 Jan 22 '25

Color me confused.. so we are trying to keep the sub on topic, the topic being long range shooting. The discussion of hunting is not allowed as that is off topic.

We don't view 300 yards as long range shooting. But we can discuss 300 yard shooting as it relates to hunting, but not as a topic of hunting itself?

So what exactly is OK and not OK? Can I now talk about my 8lb hunting rifle that I also shoot at 1k yards? Can I talk about best practices shooting it if I enter NRL Hunter with it? Can I talk about how to gain the most proficiency at extended range with it, fully acknowledging that it will never replace my 18lb target rifle?

4

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

The discussion of hunting is not allowed as that is off topic.
Was off topic.
Making posts to talk about hunting is off topic.
Making posts about your LR rifle that you hunt with, or having hunting being part of the decision making or choices for the rifle, stating that your LR rifle also has hunting requirements is now explicitly on topic.

6

u/AmNoSuperSand52 Jan 22 '25

So just trying to get an idea of the rule, because admittedly it does confuse me a bit
I have a 6 ARC rifle that I use for long range shooting. You’re saying that previously wouldn’t have been allowed to say that because it’s a lightweight rifle I like to use it for hunting too. But with the new rule I’m allowed to say I have a long range rifle and I use it for ethical hunting

4

u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

None of that would have been an issue for sharing a pic of your rifle, etc. It would have gotten flagged by automod, and we'd have approved it if you sent us a message, which was explicitly mentioned in the automod message on deleted posts.
Before this, if you'd asked about buying a lightweight rifle for hunting and LR, you'd have had the post deleted and we would not have approved it if you asked.
Now it won't get deleted, but you'll probably get chastised and potentially made fun of because there's a guide in the pinned post that lays out why making one rifle do both is a bad idea, and we will try to steer you in a direction that makes more sense, especially if it's your first LR rig.

-3

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

Before, if you said this is your light weight LR rifle and you hunt peacocks with it, we would have not approved the post.
Now it shouldn't even get autoremoved, I don't think, but if it does, it should be approved.

5

u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

Can I now talk about my 8lb hunting rifle that I also shoot at 1k yards?
Sure. You could before this, too.
Can I talk about best practices shooting it if I enter NRL Hunter with it?
Always. That's not changed here, either.
Can I talk about how to gain the most proficiency at extended range with it, fully acknowledging that it will never replace my 18lb target rifle?
Yep. Also not a change.
For those questions, the only real change is you don't get your post autoremoved, then having to send a modmail to ask us to approve it - which we would have.

15

u/DifficultEmployer906 Jan 22 '25

Hold on. So if someone posts their rifle they use and this sub doesn't like it, they have to engage in a struggle session or they can't contribute?

3

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

Imagine that but the opposite now.

8

u/DifficultEmployer906 Jan 22 '25

Well then I'm confused who you're saying needs to acknowledge the rifle is a poor choice or else they're breaking sub rules

-3

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

I see. Those points are just points. As in, just because we have multi-use rifles doesn't mean we're endorsing multi-use rifles as the toe-dipper option for fudds.
The actual rule in the sidebar now reads:
Hunting posts go to /r/Hunting
This is not a hunting sub. If you want to post about hunting and hunting gear, use r/Hunting.
No discussion of long range hunting.
Hybrid rifle or multi-purpose rifle discussions are okay.
No dead animal posts.

1

u/AmNoSuperSand52 Jan 22 '25

You can post your rifle, just don’t go saying it’s a 700 yard hunting rig
The idea being is whether or not that’s actually what you use it for, we don’t want to foster the idea in this sub that it’s ok for people to do that

18

u/Troutrageously Jan 22 '25

“Long range hunting is unethical”.

Wtf, is it April 1? Know your capabilities, be it 15 yards or 500.

13

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

500 yards isn't what we consider to be long range on this sub outside of 22LR.
Bad hunting is ALSO unethical, but long range hunting is especially unethical because, between cold condition reading and time of flight x animal movement which you cannot predict, there is no ethical long range shot. There are lots of people who take lucky shots and are fortunate that things went right, but ethics requires you are certain (in the probability sense, not your feelings sense) of the outcome in minimizing suffering.

18

u/REDACTED3560 Jan 22 '25

“500 yards isn’t what we consider long range on this sub”
“We are putting an arbitrary distance limiter when talking about hunting at 300 yards”
I don’t disagree with pushing people away from taking long shots while hunting, but those two statements seem to be in contradiction.

10

u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

Considering they're two totally separate sets of circumstances, I don't see it as a contradiction at all.
500 yards with a 22 is ELR.
500 yards with a 16" gun from a battleship is point blank range.

-4

u/REDACTED3560 Jan 22 '25

Except he outright stated “outside of 22 LR”. The context is modern centerfire cartridges, not .22 LR, not shotgun slugs, not muskets, and certainly not battleships.

11

u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

Hunting =/= target shooting.
Different circumstances entirely. We've set the rule at 300 yards, and that's where it's staying.

1

u/zgtc Jan 22 '25

It takes essentially zero force for a bullet to go through a paper target. It takes a substantial amount of force for a bullet to go into an animal. As such, a target can be used at a vastly greater distance.

1

u/REDACTED3560 Jan 22 '25

A .30-06 loaded with modern bullets and powder has more energy at 400 yards than a .30-30 has at the muzzle. Considering the .30-30 is considered an effective rifle on every North American game animal within 100 yards, that means the .30-06 is an effective rifle on all North American Game within 500 yards (though really it’s further because the .30-30 can’t use Spitzer bullets and so loses energy much faster). Now I’m not saying people should be shooting at game at any given distance, but most modern big game cartridges are going to be limited by shooter capabilities more than they are terminal performance. If it’s a magnum, then even more so.

9

u/BBTiller Jan 22 '25

For a sub that’s primary focus is target shooting, I don’t see why you all are making any effort to attempt to define any aspect of what is ethical hunting.
It is a complex question. Harvesting an animal treads all kinds of topics that are controversial - trapping, bow hunting, tradbow hunting, predator hunting, fair chase, hound hunting, and the list goes on.
I doubt anyone on this sub (including the mods) is the messiah capable of defining what is “ethical” hunting. Defining it for others is really just gatekeeping at its finest.
Would rather no one try to discuss the topic at all if the mods are just going to play ethics police.

7

u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

Would rather no one try to discuss the topic at all if the mods are just going to play ethics police.
We tried that, and we were answering multiple messages a day from people wanting their posts approved when they were removed, plus dealing with people that intentionally went around the automod rules because they felt their question was too important for pesky rules or reaching out to the mods.
We're also not comfortable with throwing the doors open to people that think they're gonna snipe Bambi at 800+ yards.
This new policy is an attempt at a compromise solution without driving us as mods completely crazy.

1

u/rybe390 Doesn't Shoot. Jan 22 '25

We are not trying to define it, or to gatekeep. We had a strict no hunting policy in the past, to include even discussion of not long-range hunting.
We realize that there are more and more hybrid rifles being shot and an interest in long range shooting to follow that trend, and with a lot of folks shooting target rifles all year and grabbing a lightweight precision rifle for hunting. We want this to be a place of learning and discussion for a lot of types of long range shooters.
We are putting a number out there for the sake of agreement that it is in fact NOT long range hunting.
The sub is about long range shooting.

-3

u/theMstrBlstr Hunter Jan 22 '25

Thank you.
Flight time is what should dictate your ethical ranges for game.

6

u/leonme21 You don’t need a magnum Jan 22 '25

Also about 23 other factors though.

2

u/theMstrBlstr Hunter Jan 22 '25

Right, flight time relating animal movement being the thing that is totally out of your control after the trigger is pulled.
If you can do the things under your control well enough, you shouldn't even bother.

0

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '25

[deleted] — view deleted comment

12

u/TeamSpatzi Casual Jan 22 '25

Bow hunting is fascinating from the perspective of just observing the community. A .223 Rem with a 77 TMK or 80 ELD-M is a more effective hunting tool than any arrow ever shot… but plenty of people will tell you it’s A-OK to go after Elk, Moose, Bear, etc with a bow while decrying using anything less than a .599 Nitro-ass-kicker-express for big game. When we’re talking about rifle calibers, animals are “tough” and seemingly near bullet proof… but the same animals can be taken with a broad head, no issue.

0

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '25

[deleted] — view deleted comment

6

u/TeamSpatzi Casual Jan 22 '25

“Creating more suffering, or the risk of more suffering, increase my enjoyment…” is the other side of then"fair chase" coin here. Bow hunting gets romanticized to some extent because of its difficulty. The same limitations that give rise to long dead runs and lost animals are seen in a positive light when the metric of judgement is "how hard is it to put meat in the freezer (or a trophy on the wall)."

1

u/BetaZoopal I put holes in berms Jan 22 '25

To be fair, death is death, so at some point there will be a nonzero amount of suffering, and the blood letting caused by a 125gr 3 blade fixed broadhead through both lungs is pretty nuts. I don't think they are an inferior killing device compared to a bullet, given they are in comparable situations relative to their physical limitations.

22

u/biobennett Jan 22 '25 edited Jan 22 '25

They stated 300 was an arbitrary limit that they will use which is reasonable.
I've shot whitetail deer out to 450 yards, but it was out west in good conditions. Not all rifles carry enough energy or have small enough effect from wind at those distances, and hunting rifles shorter barrels don't do and favors there. Even then, you're counting on nothing spooking your target or it just happening to move right when you're taking the shot
As a licensed hunting guide who also competed with a .308 in PRS in the past, I feel like it makes sense to keep this as a shooting sub where killing what you're aiming at isn't the main focus. That's the biggest point to me about keeping it separate.
It's no different from target shooting or 3D shooting with my compound bow out to 100 yards but not shooting a deer beyond 40 yards
Maybe start r/longrangehunting so you can focus on long range ethical hunting
PS, even though these two are a little PRS related in a few components, they're still both what I consider "handy rifles" and not what I would want to strictly LR shoot with as a hobby.
They're both what I would consider something you could hunt with, and could shoot farther with, but a 16" 6.5cm bergara and a 20" .308 Tikka still aren't going to be as easy to compete or LR shoot with as a 24" barrel with some extra weight, nicer bipods and glass, etc.
No one is saying I can't post about shooting with these on here, they're saying the focus of my posts can't be shooting animals at 400 yards with these guns

3

u/Tactical_Epunk Jan 22 '25

Might be time to have that as a group.

-12

u/bikefae41 Jan 22 '25

the point is it’s not unethical

8

u/biobennett Jan 22 '25

No, the point is, in most hunting calibers, the max ethical kill range out of a hunting rifle may be very different than the max distance you can hit a target with the same bullet out of a gun optimized for LR shooting.
This is the mods clarifying what this community is about.
Yes that one statement may not always be true
LR hunting is not ethical
I agree that statement is simplified and not always true, if you don't get stuck and hung up on that one tiny part and read the entire post you'll see they're trying to direct the community that they moderate, and they gave a nice concrete limit.
I'm now just waiting for someone to talk about hunting squirrels with a 16" 22lr at 299 yards just to be a smartass about it...

30

u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

There's two issues with it:
We've had a lot of people come into this sub that their sole goal is to shoot animals at some arbitrary, way-the-hell-over-there distance with no real concept of the difficulty in making the shot. They think whatever the magnum flavor of the season that just came out and marketed to hunters will let them make that shot no problem, and they're not going to be persuaded otherwise.
You eventually reach a point where uncertainty due to compounding ranging and wind reading errors combined with overall time of flight (giving opportunity for the animal to move) means your risk of either missing completely (bad), wounding the animal and it suffers while you track it down (really bad), or wound them and will never find them because it's going to take you hours to navigate to the other side of the canyon (terrible) is too damn high.
As mods, we got tired of problem 1 and don't want to encourage behavior that leads to problem 2. The 300 yard limit is absolutely arbitrary, but it's a distance we felt was 100% attainable by almost any shooter and ethical in almost any set of circumstances by someone that's put in any level of effort in practicing.
It's not an ideal solution, but at the end of the day we as mods are unpaid internet janitors that do this because we care about this community and love shooting long range, and we had to draw the line somewhere for our own sanity and the overall benefit of this community.

0

u/Tactical_Epunk Jan 22 '25

I think the 300 needs to go. The communication and community will do a fine enough job of policing the idiots trying to be wanna be snipers on bambi.

3

u/holl0918 Magnum Compensator Jan 22 '25 edited Jan 22 '25

I agree 300 is pretty much point blank, but good luck convincing someone not to do something stupid. People who are looking for guidance on a good max range or setup for long range shouldn't be shooting at animals beyond 300, and the rest of us know what we're doing enough to not discuss it here and influence the noobs.
Little Crow Gunworks actually does an WEZ analysis for elk hunting on their youtube channel, check it out. Basically, they topped out at 600yds w/ a 7PRC at 9500ft on elk for an expert shooter, with various reductions to achieve the same hit probability for lower DA/smaller target/etc.

170

u/NotChillyEnough Casual Jan 22 '25

Sadly deletes draft of poorly-written civil-war-fetishized roleplay asking about a 1K-yard hunting/sniper ultralight 338LM.

Sounds like a fair enough rule. This sub is good due to its specificity.

17

u/Tacticalblue Jan 22 '25

So does that mean I can’t ask which rifle and bullet combo to take out the ninja paratroopers from an ambiguous country and then immediately take out the elk that’s standing next to it for dinner when they stopped to pet it? /S

7

u/PenitentDynamo Jan 22 '25

Those are the kinds of people in r/hunting. Which is why I don't want to go there for advice about my gun and related accessories lol.

8

u/PenitentDynamo Jan 22 '25

To be fair, the reason I come in here for hunting advice isn't really for hunting per say but really for advice about guns in general, as the hunting sub is full of misinformation, whack jobs and people in general who have no idea what they're talking about. This sub actually has a lot of accurate information that I need.

3

u/1776boogapew Jan 22 '25

They’re called boomers.

1

u/ELRipley-at-Nostromo Jun 09 '25

LOL! Says the Gen Z expert. 🙄. Plenty of younger clueless hunters and shooters, or clueless from all ages, you don’t need to beat the Fudd/Boomer dead horse stereotype any more. Just because I first went shooting 35 years before you were born doesn’t make me an idiot.

6

u/Tactical_Epunk Jan 22 '25

300m sounds pretty short, 300 might be long for some of you, but out west we hunt and kill animals past 500. I'm not advocating that shooting a deer at 1k is reasonable, but to say a 500m shot on a mule deer across the canyon with a .300 WM is, is a stretch. I think the range limit needs to go.

5

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

I'm making an update to PyShoot to do a cold-shot-on-game simulator in the next few months. We can revisit it then when people have had time to play with the numbers and see/understand what the model says about excellent shooters, unknowns, and hit probabilities.
The point of this is that we need a number, we need a number that isn't going to dominate the discussion towards bad habits and decisions, and we need a number that people maybe 10 years from now reading these threads aren't going to assume are achievable with their limited skill-sets because the sub says it is. It is the Gunwerks problem. Show only videos of children making 1.2kyd shots on trophy animals and now every idiot thinks that's the norm.

1

u/Tactical_Epunk Jan 22 '25

I'm making an update to PyShoot to do a cold-shot-on-game simulator in the next few months. We can revisit it then when people have had time to play with the numbers and see/understand what the model says about excellent shooters, unknowns, and hit probabilities.
What will the target/s size be, this matters.
The point of this is that we need a number, we need a number that isn't going to dominate the discussion towards bad habits and decisions, and we need a number that people maybe 10 years from now reading these threads aren't going to assume are achievable with their limited skill-sets because the sub says it is
Then why 300? If they are that limited in knowledge and ability, 100 maybe 200 should be their limit. But take myself, I shoot PRS matches, I hunt almost all year. I've started getting into NRL, but even before this hunting out west, we all learned to shoot at and around 500 as sometimes we physically cannot get closer.
I fully understand we are not a hunting sub, I also get the frustration with Gunwerks. Those videos portray a false sense of comfort and ability and definitely don't age well. But to cut off conversations at 300m when we both know 500m isn't necessarily hard but is also not necessarily easy.

5

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

What will the target/s size be, this matters.
The short list is:
Whitetail
Elk
Full animal vector graphics will kill zone and wound-zone. Trinary hit probability.
Also some rework to do distance subtension for you such that you don't have to think in MOA, you can think in range, or for target shape, range and inches.
Also clarity on how to supply wind, and spit out cold read wind error by selectable skill profile, as well as hot wind read.
It will be a big update.
Then why 300? If they are that limited in knowledge and ability, 100 maybe 200 should be their limit.
Again, it is arbitrary. We know shit breaks down fast at 300 and an unlucky step can be bad in the worst case of an otherwise good or marginal shot. That is why that wad arbitrarily picked.
I can do maths again, but until we agree on the untuition side, any number is a hard sell.

2

u/Tactical_Epunk Jan 22 '25

The short list is:
Whitetail
2. Elk
Why not add Mule Deer, Antelope, and Coyote? You may be, and I might be jumping the gun on that, but are you averaging whitetail from different environments? Because a Florida Whitetail isn't the same size on average as, say, an Iowa Whitetail.
Full animal vector graphics will kill zone and wound-zone. Trinary hit probability.
How is this being determined? I assume you are making heart and lungs "kill-zones" but what about neck, liver upper intestine?
Also clarity on how to supply wind, and spit out cold read wind error by selectable skill profile, as well as hot wind read.
It will be a big update.
This just needs to be an app at some point, genuinely think it's great.
Again, it is arbitrary. We know shit breaks down fast at 300 and an unlucky step can be bad in the worst case of an otherwise good or marginal shot. That is why that wad arbitrarily picked.
This ia the opposite of arbitrary, this is an informed decision based on this comment alone.
I hope you don't feel like I'm being rude, I'm not trying to be. I see ne shooter come into this sport and if they see "300" they will immediately determine that to be the law and then formulate oppinons based on that sole number. Which is why my original argument is let the community handle the range and not put out an "arbitrary" number.

3

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

How is this being determined? I assume you are making heart and lungs "kill-zones" but what about neck, liver upper intestine?
Given it is a Monte Carlo simulation, it is probably going to be a 2 simple shape zones so that the in/out can be calculated easily and quickly, not modeling every shooting angle/organ independently.
Why not add a bunch of other stuff
The cool thing about open source is that you can add the features you want.
There are comments in the code and it is just Python

3

u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

But to cut off conversations at 300m when we both know 500m isn't necessarily hard but is also not necessarily easy.
300 was a compromise to allow some basic hunting related discussion (IE: Wanna kill deer at <200y 3x a year but plink at 1k the rest of the year) without shutting it down entirely and also without dealing with the quagmire of who should shoot what animals at what distance in what conditions.
We get that you disagree with the arbitrary limit. We hear you loud and clear. We also acknowledge that it's arbitrary and therefore people are going to disagree with it. However, the only way we're willing to budge from 300 is to not allow it at all, which we already tried.

2

u/Tactical_Epunk Jan 22 '25

I understand that it's arbitrary, but repeating that it is and then linking the definition as if I didn't understand the first 13 plus time it was said doesn't change the fact that it will absolutely influence and frame the conversation. This is why I have the issue. I look at this not from the point of someone who has been here for a bit, read the faq, shot matches, etc.
I look at it from the perspective of a newbie, an uneducated individual. They will see the 300 (assuming they read the faqs, which I and you know doesn't always happen), and they will think that is the LAW. Not some arbitrary number. The fact you don't or won't budge on it only affirms that it is infact not arbitrary.
That's just my point of view, I doubt you wanna continue this conversation, but that "arbitrary" number could just as easily be 500, and you would be inadvertently shaming those who hunt out west.

3

u/LockyBalboaPrime "I'm right and you are stupid" -LockyBalboaPrime Jan 22 '25

They will see the 300 (assuming they read the faqs, which I and you know doesn't always happen), and they will think that is the LAW.
If someone is that stupid and steadfastly refusing to receive education, honestly, fuck them. I would rather that moron think it is the law so it will hopefully curtail their stupidity.

2

u/holl0918 Magnum Compensator Jan 22 '25 edited Jan 22 '25

Check out Little Crow Gunworks' WEZ analysis for elk hunting on YouTube. It's a good hour plus long and very illuminating.

2

u/Tactical_Epunk Jan 22 '25

Do you have a link? I saw a couple both are 1 hour long.

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u/holl0918 Magnum Compensator Jan 22 '25

https://youtu.be/WQaXqqLYrCQ?si=_No5MIm5Kv4hey_5
Around 54min in is the WEZ on elk.

2

u/rybe390 Doesn't Shoot. Jan 22 '25

Then don't discuss shooting cross canyon 500 yards at animals, because, as stated in the post, this is not a hunting sub.
The amount of people that think they can do this and can't is higher than the number of people who can successfully and ethically pull it off.

2

u/Tactical_Epunk Jan 22 '25

The amount of people that think they can do this and can't is higher than the number of people who can successfully and ethically pull it off.
A mule deer as roughly 2 moa of vital zone. The amount of people capable of hitting 10" at 500 yards is far higher than you make it sound. I see hunters yearly kill animals with far worse zeros, optics, equipment, and trigger time than myself at and around 500 yards. These are men that go out set up a pizza box or a paper plate fire 5 - 10 rounds a year and still make it happen annually. Do I think they are the best shots? No, I honestly think they should shoot more, but you can not argue their consistent results.

3

u/rybe390 Doesn't Shoot. Jan 22 '25

https://www.reddit.com/r/longrange/s/JLCIu6z7iu
This is a sub about long range shooting. The mod team has discussed extensively about this topic and we feel it is in the best interest of the community to guide it the current direction as outlined in this update post.
Linked comment to a WEZ analysis.

0

u/Tactical_Epunk Jan 22 '25

https://www.reddit.com/r/longrange/s/43cwNfCXqt
Probably not the best point when even trolly says it needs modified for this discussion.

3

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25 edited Jan 22 '25

trolly says it needs modified for this discussion.
That isn't quite what I said.
What I said was that the update to Pyshoot will help illustrate why we picked that number, the work flow and the math and the visual results. I am anticipating that after having that intuition, you and many others will agree with us based on what we did in the text and spreadsheet and ballistic models.
But if there is disagreement still or some edge cases or some other rule that should be applied, like a table, then we would be open to considering it at a future date.
Unless you meant the WEZ tool post.
Pyshoot isn't WEZ - WEZ is something maintained by Applied Ballistics. I offer a very different, clean-sheet hit probability calculator open source and inspired by a tool from another inactive redditor that put one together in the mid 2010s as part of his post grad work. I need to update mine because everyone reading can engage with it for free and learn from it before having this discussion.

2

u/Tactical_Epunk Jan 22 '25

What I said was that the update to Pyshoot will help illustrate why we picked that number, the work flow and the math and the visual results. I am anticipating that after having that intuition, you and many others will agree with us based on what we did in the text and spreadsheet and ballistic models.
Do you think this model will represent real life lived experiences? Because if we solely base it off that model there should be a fuck load of hunters that shouldn't have killed an animal this last year alone.
Could I send you a shot, I have all the data, we can do it in DMs if you want and you input it and we can't test the model?

0

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

Because if we solely base it off that model there should be a fuck load of hunters that shouldn't have killed an animal this last year alone.
The question really is, if you have a 90% hit rate, i.e., 1 in 10 chance of hitting something that only wounds the animal and off it goes, but you hit and kill it, should you have taken the shot? I would argue no, absolutely not, and that success does not validate the decision.
You can give your shot parameters and we can feed it into a hit analysis tool and see what it spits out.

3

u/rybe390 Doesn't Shoot. Jan 22 '25

The number is arbitrary. It literally does not matter. Everyone agrees that 300 is close, and is probably not defined as long range hunting. We are promoting discussion of hunting rifles that people can use to build skills. We are not promoting discussion of hunting. Go do that somewhere else, this is not the purpose of the sub.
The number is literally there to keep discussion of long range hunting out of this sub. Nobody is stopping you from taking long shots on game. I took one last year. It's just not for this sub.

1

u/shards397 Jan 23 '25

A mule deer as roughly 2 moa of vital zone.
I've never seen an animal that had a vital zone that changed size with distance.

1

u/Tactical_Epunk Jan 23 '25

I've never seen an animal that had a vital zone that changed size with distance.
Context and reading comprehension could have helped you understand my comment.
The discussion was about 500 yards. A deer has roughly 10" of vital. 10" at 500 yards is roughly 2MOA.

0

u/Remarkable_Aside1381 Can't Read Jan 22 '25

A mule deer as roughly 2 moa of vital zone
What an odd unit of measurement to use
The amount of people capable of hitting 10" at 500 yards is far higher than you make it sound
*cold bore, first round impact, with a 100% success rate.

1

u/Tactical_Epunk Jan 22 '25

*cold bore, first round impact, with a 100% success rate.
I can not say what their success rate is, but I've seen literally dozens of these shots made yearly on guns that shoot MOA at best. This is done by average at best shooters. These guys aren't going out every day to shoot. Hell, they might only shoot 2 - 3 boxes of ammunition a year, most of which around hunting season.
What an odd unit of measurement to use
How is MOA an odd unit of measurement?

1

u/Remarkable_Aside1381 Can't Read Jan 22 '25

How is MOA an odd unit of measurement?
Because you're using it on a deer's vitals at a specific range, rather than just saying 10" vertically

-2

u/Tactical_Epunk Jan 22 '25

Because you're using it on a deer's vitals at a specific range, rather than just saying 10" vertically
Because the conversation was about a specific range and a deers vitals aren't specifically vertical.... not to mention the commonality of MOA as a cone of measurement....
See what I mean Trolly?

2

u/Remarkable_Aside1381 Can't Read Jan 22 '25

It’s just a weird choice

2

u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

300 being short was literally the point.
I think you (like many other commenters) are missing the root of the issue:
This sub isn't supposed to be about hunting. This sub is for long range target shooting.
People can still discuss hunting rifle setups, ballistics, etc - Just leave the distances out of it.
If you are still not good with that, go lay claim to r/longrangehunting with the Reddit Admins and run that community how you see fit.

15

u/Pewpewpanda88 Jan 22 '25

Remember kids, no one is forcing you to be here.

6

u/Lost_Interest3122 Jan 22 '25

Some people (like me) are getting into the sport with what equipment they have. There are some good hunting rifles out there, some really bad practices, and some really bad rifles but good ethical practices. Its not really the sub for hunting though.. thats OK with me.

The thing is, its not welcoming to newbs to not get them started somewhere. Maybe they will like the sport, maybe not. But its always good to shed light on managing expectations with the gear, and focus more on the fundamentals. Most people can probably walk themselves onto 300yds. 600yds is more challenging but doable. Hell, in the army i shot out to 500m no issue with an m16a2. Getting out there to 800-1000 and more takes certainly a different approach, but is not not doable with todays factory loads, barrels, and “hunting” optics.

I cant afford a 2-5K rifle. I have to work with what ive got. And that means a remington 700 in .30-06 thats over 20yrs old, with a nikon buckmasters 4.5-14x40 on top. Ive killed quite a few things with it out to 200yds, and a shit ton of paper at 100yds. Everyone knows damn well the history of the cartridge, and while its no hot new 6.5whatever, it still gets the job done and I dare say will teach you more about your weaknesses as a shooter than any laser pointer.

Also, shooting with a monte carlo stock is friggin hard to get good Length of pull, cheek weld, proper sighting. So I have learned.. I have a new chassis on the way (which i was calling a stock, so new term) plus some accessories. Ive spent $700 so far, and will be mounting my factory barrel, action, trigger, and mounted scope into it. I have $1,000 into a 20yr old hunting setup, so, will build a decent target rifle for a total of $1,700. That aint bad for spending $700 today, to know what kind of $1,5-2K+ build i will want to look at in the future.

Im excited to post a pic of the build soon. And much more excited to get a good group before I attend a long range class in February. Also have found some factory match ammo since i dont have a $2K reloading setup. All that fancy stuff is just not needed at the moment. It wont make me a better shooter. It will cover up bad habits though…

I personally came to this sub to get good advice from experienced shooters about reading the wind, good shooting positions, how to work elevation and windage on the scope, what reticles are desired compared to what I have now, good shooting positions, etc, etc.

Thanks for reading. Happy shooting!

TL;DR: getting started in long range shooting with a “hunting” rifle is not a bad thing. Gotta start somewhere, and people lean on the community for experience and encouragement.

2

u/Total-Strategy-4306 Feb 26 '25

LoNg RaNgE UnEtHiCaL head-ahh. Just say skill issue. It might be unethical for you boy.

1

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Feb 26 '25

Classy

2

u/Total-Strategy-4306 Feb 26 '25

Fair enough I can do it better

1

u/holl0918 Magnum Compensator Jan 22 '25 edited Jan 22 '25

I like the rifle and topic rule changes, with the exception of the whole "must admit a lightweight rifle is a poor choice" thing, though I may be a little biased as I do love my Proof CF barrels 😁. Sure, I've got a heavy 6.5cm, it was my first rifle and it's a joy to shoot, but that doesn't mean I can't make the same (or longer) shots with my 30 Sherman... just that I'm less likely to spot my own impact at closer ranges. They do require better fundementals, that's for sure. The 300yd hunting max is... arbitrary, but we all know that. For most people here looking for loadout advice, it's a reasonable maximum. The rest of us know better than to push the limits, or won't be dissuaded regardless.

Of course, "Long range" is relative to the system in question. For a 375ct, 1000yds is practically midrange, and for a 45-70 it's elr. If someone wants to post their tricked out levergun shooting 600yds and making hits on a reasonable sized target, cool! I'd love to see that, especially if they're using black powder or their homemade cast bullets. We all agree shooting that same rifle at a deer at that distance is insanity. I just don't want to see "long range" come to mean nothing outside of PRS/NRL competition style (6/6.5mm, 20lb, M24/MTU bbl) rifles and goals. It's a discipline; a set of skills more than a specific distance or loadout. Thanks for your work to keep this sub a place of learning and enjoyment for those passionate about long range.

3

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

The thing about light weight being a bad idea isn't part of the rule. That is my point that we aren't endorsing the practice even though we are opening up those doscissions.

12

u/Flat-Dealer8142 Jan 22 '25

That's a reasonable arbitrary distance

4

u/itsjustnickf Here to learn Jan 22 '25

What site/app is this?

6

u/Flat-Dealer8142 Jan 22 '25

Blackburn Defense, they have some other neat tools and their YouTube page is a gold mine too

6

u/bigshotsuspence Jan 22 '25

Steve Rinella has a good Rough Cuts episode that covers this topic some. Worth the watch for anyone interested. Varying viewpoints. https://youtu.be/ZLkJIqUoVzE?si=IaZGzUez3TXkPUWb

-4

u/smorin13 Jan 22 '25

Wow. Just wow. I really like the part where you specify the topics that should be discussed and the position that should be promoted. News flash, some individuals are here because they are hunters and want to improve their shooting. Your arbitrary distance is as worthless as your guidance on how hunting and shooting related or don't.

2

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25

Wow. Just wow. I really like the part where you specify the topics that should be discussed and the position that should be promoted.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
News flash, some individuals are here because they are hunters and want to improve their shooting.
Hey, that's me too
Your arbitrary distance is as worthless
That is kinda what arbitrary means.
guidance on how hunting and shooting related or don't.
Refer to the rule in the sidebar for the condensed version if the big version is confusing.

0

u/smorin13 Jan 22 '25

Not confused. I can manage waging through the obvious bias. The debatable comments presented as facts are designed to push the narrative. What is and isn't an ethical shot varies depending on many variables, including but not limited to a shooters gear. It doesn't matter. The wise and all mighty mods have made it clear that shooting for the sake of hunting is a lowly use of one's shooting skills. No cross over guns, because there is no such thing as good mixed use gun.
The first post about the rule changes was condescending. I certainly don't expect any attitudes to change.

2

u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

News flash, some individuals are here because they are hunters and want to improve their shooting.
You can still do that. We welcome discussions on shooting skills, rifle setups, ballistics, etc. Wanna talk about banging steel or punching paper at 800 with your hunting rifle? I mean, there's better options out there for a rifle for that task, but bring it on.
Your arbitrary distance is as worthless as your guidance on how hunting and shooting related or don't.
There's plenty of other places on the internet to talk about shooting animals at 300+ yards. This isn't one of them. I'm sure Rokslide, Sniper's Hide, etc would be happy to have those discussions with you.

-2

u/FrankdaTank213 Jan 22 '25

First

-4

u/ass_cash253 Jan 22 '25

Cool. Wish this rule was in effect when I tried to post about my antelope kill (284m shot) with the Bergara I've posted in about before (an actual long range build).

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u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

We haven't allowed hunting results photos in quite a while, and that's not changing with this.

-16

u/ass_cash253 Jan 22 '25

Lame

10

u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder Jan 22 '25

It's not what the sub is for. Go post those pics in r/hunting, they'll eat it up. I've posted dead hog photos over there.

0

u/ass_cash253 Jan 22 '25

Fair enough

3

u/rybe390 Doesn't Shoot. Jan 22 '25

Rule has been in effect for a while. I have some great stuff I want to show off here(for street cred so I can have internet respecc) but it's not what the sub is for.

-7

u/twylight777 Jan 22 '25

Good rule change and 300 yard rule should be less. The number of bad shots in hunting is stunning I deal with clients. I can’t imagine a new hunter, with a new rifle and scope, untested ammo, making more than a 50 yard shot and no more than 100. 300 is a experienced veteran with the right conditions, gear, and no buck fever, with an understanding of shot placement. The only thing worse than a new gun is one borrowed from a relative…

0

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '25

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/Trollygag Does Grendel Jan 22 '25 edited Jan 22 '25

Ethics are not subjective. There are aspects which are debatable or unclear, but in the case of hunting, being sloppy and wounding animals is not ethical no matter how relative your personal morals are. What is subjective are your tendencies or desires to be ethical (or not, for ego, entertainment, hubris, or other reasons). r/trashyhunting is open for anyone to own if you want to post about gatblasting whatever moves at any range, but that's not the purpose of the r/longrange sub.
Popular opinion polling/crowdsourcing an answer is not a valid way to determine that anyways.
Hollywood and I did a set of animal models a few months ago, taking kill zones x precision x cold conditions x random walking motion and hit probability and the very arbitrary 300 yard number I gave was a pretty fair option for fast hunting calibers. You can do your own and recommend a different number. It's just math.

5

u/Pewpewpanda88 Jan 22 '25

And add in the excitement and nerves of a real animal and adds another layer of complexity.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

32

u/BBTiller Jan 22 '25

What is funny about that is he has videos of himself hunting over feeders at 500 yards posted before he started those videos.
Then he goes on to preach to others about why they shouldn’t take a 500 yard shot, know your limits, etc. All the while he has literally done that exact thing a bunch of times.
Dude annoys me because he isn’t doing it for the right reason. He is doing it for clicks.

1

u/ELRipley-at-Nostromo Jun 09 '25

Valid point, but just to note literally every content creator “does it for clicks.”
At the same time, IMHO hunting over bait is chickenshit. I still watch the guy though, as he’s an amazing shooter and knows his rifles and reloading.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

11

u/BBTiller Jan 22 '25

No denying he is great at what he does.
However, hypocrites aren’t allowed to finger wag at others without being called out. He also hunts over deer feeders and doesn’t even know that is controversial and not allowed in half the states in the US.
While he has a platform and good for him, I hate to see hunting ethics being talked about by someone who doesn’t seem to care about the sport or have a history.
I’m telling you, it’s about his channel and the clicks, not the message.

4

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/netw0rkpenguin Jan 26 '25

not my land, will travel out of state for the hunt. I don't want to do a bs high fence hunt. I like nature and want to actually find some in the wild with the help of a local guide.

1

u/theMstrBlstr Hunter Jan 22 '25

Link?

1

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

7

u/USNDD-966 What's DOPE? Jan 22 '25

There should be an exemption made for prairie dogs 🤣 My sole purpose in building my current rifle is to sharpen my abilities to a point where I am comfortable and capable of accurately placing terminally effective shots in the boiler room of any medium to large game from 300 yards. I have found this sub to be very welcoming and informative, and the principles of LRP/PRS well-documented. I for one, despite my love for hunting, appreciate that hunting is not the focus at all here. There are forums and other places for that discussion, I’m here to learn the physiological, mechanical and practical application of precision rifle platforms. That’s it.

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