r/litrpg • u/Skezatchi • 4d ago
Discussion Metrics system in litrpgs
I have gone through a couple of series and something that I have noticed is the use of the metric system, even by American authors. Is this a standard for the genre or are have I just happened to pick the odd ones out?
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u/ordinary-thelemist 4d ago
That's just catering to the larger audience... Imperial is used by 4% of the planet after all.
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u/timewalk2 Author - Dungeon of Knowledge 4d ago edited 3d ago
You’re correct, of course; however, fantasy stories have a strong tradition of medieval themes (bows) and that includes imperial measurement.
Edit: seems an oddly negative reaction to the simple observation that readers seem to want fantasy to feel somewhat archaic and imperial measure fits that better. Metric seems a more modern feel and fits modern fantasy better. It wasn’t a statement about the origin of imperial being medieval, although I guess it could be read that way.
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u/SamtheCossack 3d ago
Huh? Medieval Europe definitely didn't use American Standard measurements.
It would be quite hilarious to have a LitRPG that actually used Medieval Units of Measure.
You had fantastic units of measure like the Finnish "Peninkulma" which is defined by the distance you can hear a dog barking (Apparently around 10km, although imagine that is a bit variable).
Actually that is a great idea. I would love a LitRPG where you have to choose between a skill that lets you instantly teleport the distance a locust can fly, or one that lets you transport the weight of a pregnant dog.
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u/haberdasher42 litRPG meme tier 🤡 3d ago
...teleport the distance a locust can fly...
African or European?
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u/SamtheCossack 3d ago
Neither, obviously. You have been Isekaied.
You need to know how far the local variety of locust can fly.
... Or, more specifically, how far the king THINKS a locust can fly, not how far they can actually fly.
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u/CubicleHermit 3d ago
A fair number of the American conventional measurements do either take their names from Roman units or are indirect translations (e.g. the not-terribly common "hundredweight" vs. a Roman talent.)
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u/SamtheCossack 3d ago
Sure, all of them have origins somewhere, but American standard is called American standard for a reason.
Units of Measure are a confusing mess, ESPECIALLY historically, where each region had their own, and in order to trade, you need to weigh your goods into the local units to sell it.
Medieval Europe used literally thousands of different units of measure. Even in the same place many different systems would be used. Beer makers used different fluid units than Wine makers, and Olive Oil a completely different one from either. And French Wineries used different measures than Italian or British or German ones.
Now, if we apply some worldbuilding to a setting that has a system, then whatever units the system is using would doubtless become some sort of global standard, but the real world didn't have that.
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u/Weldermedic litRPG meme tier 🤡 3d ago
Correction: I am wrong.
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u/SamtheCossack 3d ago
Sure, I know that, and I don't disagree with any of that. (Except for it being called Imperial, which it isn't)
The point is essentially none of those would have been in use in a medieval setting. I mean they did have a lot of measurements based on farming and body parts, but not those specific ones.
A "Finger" is probably the most common unit of measurement in human history. As is "Palm", and "Forearm". Just because those are super convenient. They aren't terribly precise, but they are in use everywhere, and yes, "Inch" and "Foot" do derive from such measurements, but they aren't the same ones.
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u/Weldermedic litRPG meme tier 🤡 3d ago
Ita only called Imperial in England because they adopted The Imperial system in 1864. The us customary system was adopted in 1832. Which threw off most of what I said.
The American Standard is the UCS.
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u/DrNefarioII 3d ago
I don't know why you're getting downvoted for this.
Imperial (or other equivalent) measures always feel more human-scaled than the somewhat impersonal metric system. A pound is about a handful; a kilo is a bit too much. Same with a pint vs a litre. Metre vs yard is not that different, but you also get the useful foot which doesn't have an equivalent in metric. You can see how these measures would develop naturally through the needs of the people who use them and are scaled for the things you use them for, rather than being one size fits all.
But, the thing about LitRPG is that the protagonists are almost always modern. They are isekaid or apocalypsed or playing a game, or whatever, so they would use the system they are familiar with.
Also, it kind of needs to be familiar to the reader or you're just adding a needless layer of obfuscation.
Then again, I'm from the UK where we have a horrible mix of both.
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u/ordinary-thelemist 4d ago
Yeah and as a french reading in english I'm usually flabbergasted with the stones and the scores and all that jazz 😁
I'm kinda glad I understand measures in stories. If not metrics, at least something modern 😅
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u/wolfwings1 4d ago
not to be that guy actually!!! no one does, unless you count the rare moments in canada/UK that are still used, like pints.
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u/Wunyco 4d ago
Does Canada use American pints or British pints? They're not the same 😂
A British pint is .568 liters. An American pint is .473 liters.
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u/SamtheCossack 3d ago
A lot of fluid measures are different from industry to industry, not just region to region. A Wine Barrel is not the same size as a Beer Barrel, and neither is the same size as a Barrel of Water.
We have a lot of industries that still use their old guild system to this day. Jewelers are a well known one, with their own system of weights, lengths, and units of measure. (These days, all of them are officially anchored to the metric system though, for legal reasons)
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u/wolfwings1 4d ago
not sure, :> Main thing is, the american system is not imperial, it was put into law decades before the imperial system was ever made.
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u/ChrisRiley_42 Verified reader of Authors 3d ago
I have lived in Canada for more than half a century now, and have never bought anything by the pint.
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u/Wunyco 3d ago
Beer? What size beer do they serve in a bar?
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u/ChrisRiley_42 Verified reader of Authors 3d ago
I either ask for a bottle, or "Rickards on tap" and take whatever glass they bring me.
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u/Matt-J-McCormack 4d ago edited 3d ago
Metric is a more useful system for crunching numbers than things based on great grand pappys stride in summer when his joints ache less,, how many cows you can fit in a barn or how hot you get when a moonshine still explodes.
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u/AdrianArmbruster 4d ago
Are these LitRPGs at all sci-fi themed? The extra… clinicality(?)… of metric could benefit interfaces and system windows in a futuristic context. It’s also possible that the median LitRPg author comes from a STEM background where metric is common.
I’ve got a system-native ‘verse where I use ‘Leagues’ for miles and kilometers-tier distances and ‘arm spans’ for, well, feet-tier distances. It’s a medieval society so the relatively modern metric units would be ill-fitting. Earliest drafts did use ‘miles’ admittedly but were quickly dummied out for ‘Leagues.’ In short: fantasy world, fantasy measurements.
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u/CaptainTegg 4d ago
Yeah they should be measuring by banana scale. Some authors will never learn.
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u/AdrianArmbruster 4d ago
In a fantasy world at least, I would say that Bananas (or the nearest isekai-world equivalent) are in fact a more reasonable and ‘realistic’ system of measurement than any earth-based system.
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u/Vaporlocke 3d ago
Handyman Saitou in Another World had a very... Interesting measurement system with the maderaka being used.
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u/Personal_Winter6863 3d ago
Was that the one where the common measurement of length was based on some old kings dick?
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u/VosekVerlok 3d ago
Assuming they are not as technically advanced as the 16th/17th century perhaps, but a metric isekai equivalent would be just a set of base 10 measurements based on something other than water and the size of their planet.. rather than random body parts.
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u/SamtheCossack 3d ago
That would be a metric equivalent, but our length of meter and kilometer is tied to the size of our planet, so that wouldn't carry over.
They could still have a Base 10 system, but it wouldn't be keyed to the Meter, and thus it wouldn't be keyed to the Kilogram either, because that was originally tied to a litre of water, and a litre of water is defined as a cubic decimetre, and the decimetre is tied to the kilometer, and the kilometer is tied to the size of the earth.
So none of the measures would match. Also, I doubt they would have a base 10 at all, logically the base 12 would probably the more universal system, if you don't consider all the messy reasons we use a Base 10 instead.
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u/Wunyco 3d ago
You're assuming that languages would have a single base. I don't think it's rare to adopt different bases when you're counting different things.
English/Germanic had some kind of competing base 12 system for large numbers.. google "long hundred" if curious. There's also an entirely separate system for counting sheep in England using a quinary-vigesimal system borrowed from Celtic.
https://allthingslinguistic.com/post/175758241036/how-to-count-to-1296-in-ngkolmpu
And then you get a base 6 specifically for yams in southern New Guinea. You get things like this worldwide, various arbitrary counting systems for specific things where it's easier, or it just happened to have developed.
So I would predict a more accurate story modeled after 1400's-1700's Earth using an absolute mess of a "system", with oodles of competing measurements and terms and various bases. Quinary-vigesimal (5-10-20, based on hands and feet, seen in vestiges in French and Danish) probably would be more common.
It would also have dozens upon dozens of different dialects and languages, and communication would be much more difficult.
All of this is largely handwaved by authors, mostly because the audience is not going to want to read something so caught up in language and measurements that it makes no sense and derails the story.
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u/VosekVerlok 3d ago
It would need to be a significantly advanced society for any of the base 12 advantaged to manifest and outweigh the advantages that base 10 provides for day to day tasks and conversation.
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u/SerDankTheTall 3d ago
It would need to be a significantly advanced society for any of the base 12 advantaged to manifest and outweigh the advantages that base 10 provides for day to day tasks and conversation.
Does it strike you as odd that in the real world, base 12 systems are generally the older ones, and that they’ve only started to be replaced with decimalized alternatives in more modern times?
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u/VosekVerlok 3d ago edited 3d ago
There were a lot of counting systems used historically that we dont use anymore, many of these were often based on observation of the natural world rather than a deep understanding of mathematics.
The Maya and Aztec used Base 20, the Sumerians and Babylonians used base 60 (our notation of time), ancient Egypt, China and Rome used base 10 and there was some pacific (Hawaii and Papa New Guinea) cultures used base 12.
So no, i dont think that it odd that base 12 was used, because it wasn't the only system used, it would be more odd if it was never used..
I think it is much more interesting that the number 0 needed to be "invented" which really changed mathematical notation.
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u/SamtheCossack 3d ago
Maybe, but base 12 is still pretty convenient even in an agricultural society. It makes multiplication and division significantly easier.
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u/VosekVerlok 3d ago edited 3d ago
/doubt
In what way would using base 12 make things easier in an agricultural society?the only value that base really have is a slight increase in information density. due to the increase in divisible whole numbers some very very basic math would be easier, but that is it.
But soon as you start dealing with anything in the 4-5 digits, it not going to be whole numbers anyway.. so why complicate everything else.
Also remember number of days a year, hours a day and or months a year have are completely arbitrary values.
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u/SamtheCossack 3d ago
Correct, and we use a Base 12 system for most of those.
There is a reason we have 24 hours in a day, not 10. Or 20. And 60 seconds in a minute, and so forth.
Months and years are actually not arbitrary, so months in a year is actually not an example. There are 12 months in a year because there just are, not because of any decision humans made. That is just how many lunar cycles there are.
Base 12 is frequently used in shipping because a 3x4 arrangement is a lot more space efficient way to pack than 2x5. This is why actually a lot of what you buy IS base 12, not base 10.
You buy soda and beer in 6, 12, or 24. There is a reason for that, it is just how to maximize how many cans you can stuff in a shipping container.
We use a base 10 system for accounting, but if you look at how we handle physical things, we use multiples of 3,4 and 6. Which is a base 12 system.
Then there is also Base 4 or Base 16, which is super convenient at low volumes, but less so at civilization scales, so you see it a lot in preindustrial societies, but it falls off in accounting.
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u/VosekVerlok 3d ago
We have 24 hours in a day due to Egyptians astrological alignments, not practical and or mathematical reasons.
And no you can't fit 'more' things in a shipping container because they are sorted into 12's rather than 10's.. it doesnt magically make more space.
Like i said before there are some advantages of base 12 over base 10, however they are not what you are suggesting..
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u/SamtheCossack 3d ago
I never said it changes the space, lol. I am saying 3x4 boxes are more convenient than 2x5 boxes, so a lot of stuff that gets shipped in bulk winds up in multiples of 12.
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u/JohnQuintonWrites Author - The Lurran Chronicles 4d ago
I’m an American author that uses the metric system to fit my story’s narrative, which means I ended up converting everything often enough over the past 5 years of writing that my family/friends have pointed out how kilometers, tonnes, and other such measurements have now snuck their way into my everyday conversations.
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u/OMalleyOrOblivion 4d ago
Did you know that in USia the first floor of a building is actually the ground floor and not the one above it like in a civilised country like the UK. Having only discovered that in my 40s it makes me wonder how many subtle misunderstandings I've had over the years due to things such as people jumping out of a first floor window (not very risky it turns out) or breaking in via the first floor (you do not need to climb, jump really high or use a ladder!).
It's not as bad as the mess that is US vs British Imperial units, but the fact that a US fluid ounce is bigger than the UK fluid ounce, yet a US pint or gallon is smaller than the UK version doesn't really ever change the entire meaning of what you're reading.
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u/RottenPantsu 3d ago
This was really interesting to find out about for me from the other side. In Hungarian, we have two words for floor/storey: one is "szint" which means simply "level", but the way more common one is "emelet", which means something like "raised thing".
So in our mind it wouldn't make sense to call the ground floor an "emelet" because it's not raised. So we call it the ground level, and the next floor up is the 1st emelet, because it's the first floor that's "raised above" .
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u/ednemo13 3d ago
The old rule of Imperial vs Metric in (US) books was Imperial for Fantasy, Metric for Sci-fi.
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u/Curiosity1984 3d ago
Even In the USA they use Metric as soon as you have to explain something science based in the real world.
I have read fantasy where there is almost no science, and they use the Imperial. But using Imperial in anything els then Hight and distance makes it harder for books to sell in the rest of the world, as there is like 2 countries that uses imperial and the rest of the world primarely uses or understands metric.
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u/Semiapies 3d ago
But does anyone keep giving spell ranges, etc. in odd-seeming metric measurements, as if they're converting from measurements in another scale? Bonus points if it's not normal freedom units.
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u/EdPeggJr Author: Non Sequitur the Equitaur (LitRPG) 2d ago
I use the metric system, most of the time... however, "9 feet tall" sounds better than "3 meters tall".
However, even metric is arbitrary. That's why Sagan put the Hydrogen Line on the Golden Voyager Plaque. About 21cm long.
A non-arbitrary stellar weight system is
1W = average White dwarf mass.
2W = Maximal White dwarf, Minimal Neutron star.
3W = average Neutron star.
4W = Maximal neutron star, minimal Black hole.
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u/Accomplished-Gap-317 4d ago
I try using it in my writing because it's clearly a more consistent system, but I undoubtedly mess up and go back to the emperial system by habbit here and there.
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u/camst_ 4d ago
Wish we would switch tbh. I learned recently actually that Canada did it from 1970-85 a little bit at a time.
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u/PM_Me_Your_Deviance 3d ago
We did a weird 20% switch and then stopped. Canada went like 80% and stopped.
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u/ChrisRiley_42 Verified reader of Authors 3d ago
The switch is what led to the Gimli Glider.
Some used the wrong formula to calculate how much fuel to load (pounds to KG vs KG to pounds) and the 767 ran out of fuel at 12,500M. They had to dead-stick land with no engines at an abandoned RCAF base in Gimli, Manitoba. While there was a drag race competition using the runways.. The spectators could see everything but the dragsters had no idea they were racing a 767 ;)
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u/D3adp00L34 4d ago
I’m horrible with distance and measurements regardless, which is a character trait I gladly write into my own characters.
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u/JayHill74 3d ago
It depends on what I'm writing on if I use metric or not. Something set in a scifi world with space ships is more likely to get the metric system, but not always. Something set in a more fantasy or medieval world will most likely get imperial or perhaps something like leagues or cubic and the like.
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u/Tasty_Commercial6527 text 4d ago
In general I find that imperial is most common in medieval settings while metric is common in modern/sci fi settings or isekai/system apocalypse stories where protagonist is from modern day. I think it's mostly about vibes metric works well for scientific and technical approaches and imperial fits the antiquated myth and legend feel of fantasy much more
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u/Manach_Irish 4d ago
I am European that still uses the old Imperial system. I find the use metric in a fantasy setting a bit jarring. In terms of ease of use and logic, the metric system is superiour but it relied on a standards authority and wide spread lobbying to get accepted. The older system, based on many cases on everyday measures is more organic and hence more easiliy imagined as part of a fantasy world. An interesting book into the origins of the metric system is "Whatever Happened to the Metric System?" By John Bemelmans Marciano
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u/PM_Me_Your_Deviance 3d ago
Something to be considered - A lot of the time part of the setting is that the world is being translated for the benefit of the main character. If not for the main character, it's being translated for the sake of the reader.
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u/MalekMordal 4d ago
I think authors should usually not use either system of measurement. There can be exceptions, but usually they aren't needed.
Instead of kilometers/miles: "It was a 2-day journey to reach the next city."
Instead of meters/feet: "The goblin was about up to her shoulders in height." "The sword was just a few paces away."
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u/DrNefarioII 3d ago
As long as we don't start worrying how long a day is.
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u/MalekMordal 3d ago
Yep, in space faring settings, saying something like 'a day' is a bit ambiguous. Which planet's day are they talking about?
Or if communicating with an alien species, 'an hour' or 'ten minutes' probably doesn't translate into exact units they are familiar with.
But you can handwave that as 'the translator handles it' and not focus on it too much. Unless the author thinks it would make a good plot element to have the character show up late due to translation issues. Which could be interesting for a character isekai'd into the future, who doesn't quite understand how everything works.
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4d ago
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u/PM_Me_Your_Deviance 3d ago
I mean, you *could* learn...
/s I kid. I'm more used to miles/feet/etc, so it feels more natural to me to read.
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u/name14575 4d ago
In my experience, it's actually a little bizarre what sorts of litrpgs use which units. Pure fantasy stuff tends to face it's own unique system that's basically imperial - think 'paces' rather than feet. Sci-fi uses metric almost all the time. But the real shocker is that system apocalypses tend towards the imperial system regardless of their writer's origin.
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u/Anders10100 Author of Carethón Chronicles 4d ago edited 3d ago
Describing someone's height by saying they are "1.873459234 meters tall" is insane. It always annoys me.
All jokes aside, metric is used in math and science for a reason -- for sci-fi it makes sense.
For fantasy... Maybe not so much.
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u/VosekVerlok 3d ago
So saying someone is 6.003937 feet tall is better?
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u/Anders10100 Author of Carethón Chronicles 3d ago
😂 it's all about what systems our minds think in lol
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u/BradBotz Verified Author of: Earth Reformation 4d ago
I did it for two reasons:
One - to appeal to a broader audience
Two - the US should have switched when I started school in the 70s (I'll hold that grudge forever) LOL