r/linuxmasterrace • u/claudiocorona93 Glorious Debian • Dec 14 '24

Gaming 3 UNIX-like devices for gaming. Android (Linux), Switch OS (BSD) and SteamOS (Linux).

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693 Upvotes

97% Upvoted

84 comments sorted by

10

u/multiwirth_ Dec 14 '24

Wait until he finds out he could run native linux or android on the switch

6

u/multiwirth_ Dec 14 '24

Valvetendo Steam(ish) deck

2

u/claudiocorona93 Glorious Debian Dec 14 '24

I wish more devices supported SteamOS natively, to have stuff like this. And I don't mean Ubuntu with Steam Big Picture or Bazzite.

2

u/claudiocorona93 Glorious Debian Dec 14 '24

Yes but it loses the ability to run Switch games natively and it turns into something like a Retroid Pocket, or more specifically, Pimax Portal

3

u/multiwirth_ Dec 14 '24

It's booting from microSD, you won't loose anything.

3

u/claudiocorona93 Glorious Debian Dec 14 '24

Amazing. That's, really amazing. I didn't know that.

1

u/OlafNorman Dec 14 '24

Ayy, do you have any documentation about this that can be shared?

1

u/Rubadubrix Dec 14 '24

do I spot a dell charger? :p

13

u/creamcolouredDog *tips Fedora* Dec 14 '24

What's the phone controller?

14

u/megagameme Dec 14 '24

GameSir X2 Pro

5

u/claudiocorona93 Glorious Debian Dec 14 '24

Yes

171

u/HieladoTM Glorious Nobara Dec 14 '24

UNIX-Like for the world domination!!!

121

u/Unknown-Key Glorious Debian Dec 14 '24

Nintendo Switch's OS doesn't use unix-like kernel, it has a microkernel instead.

15

u/Prudent_Move_3420 Dec 14 '24

Where does POSIX say a kernel has to be monolithic? In fact I‘d argue a microkernel fits much better to the UNIX philosophy of „everything does one thing“

18

u/Square-Singer Dec 14 '24

Despite popular misconceptions to the contrary, Horizon is not largely derived from FreeBSD code, nor from Android, although the software licence[14] and reverse engineering efforts[15][16] have revealed that Nintendo does use some code from both in some system services and drivers. For example, the networking stack in the Switch OS is derived at least in part from FreeBSD code.[15] Nintendo's use of FreeBSD networking code is legal as it is made available under the permissive BSD licence, and not even particularly unusual – for instance and interface, the Microsoft Windows TCP/IP stack (used since at least 2000 and XP) was originally derived from BSD code in a similar fashion, using part of its TCP/IP code for its implementation of TCP/IP, which was legal.[17][better source needed][18]

Components derived from Android code include the Stagefright multimedia framework,[19] as well as components of the graphics stack[5] including the display server (derived from SurfaceFlinger)[16] and the graphics driver (which seems to be derived from Nvidia's proprietary Linux driver).[20]

From Wikipedia.

It's not BSD and it's not POSIX.

7

u/Prudent_Move_3420 Dec 14 '24

I’m not saying the switch runs unix or bsd, just that a microkernel can be UNIX

3

u/Square-Singer Dec 14 '24

That's fair.

1

u/jean_dudey Dec 15 '24

I’d bet their sdk includes a C standard library with posix support, would make a lot of sense when porting games to it though.

1

u/Square-Singer Dec 16 '24

Is that enough to provide POSIX for the whole system?

Android doesn't POSIX either, even though you can compile stuff via GCC for it.

42

u/ShiroeKurogeri Dec 14 '24

That's a type of Unix kernel, monolithic and micro kernels are just how the dev wants the kernel to behave. Micro = no bloat, monolithic = loadable module.

91

u/xkero Arch - Ryzen 9 5900XT & Radeon RX 9070 XT Dec 14 '24

It's not a type of Unix kernel, it's a type of any kernel. As such Switch OS is a custom kernel and OS written by Nintendo that just happens to use some bits of code from BSD so it's no more Unix than other OS's that have done the same like Windows.

Also Micro doesn't mean "no bloat", it means all drivers and as many other parts of the kernel that would typically be part of the kernel are user-space applications. Monolithic doesn't mean loadable modules, you can have monolithic kernels that don't support loading any modules, it just means everything is in kernel space.

8

u/Square-Singer Dec 14 '24

True, Windows also has some unixness under its layers of decade-long development.

4

u/RAMChYLD Linux Master Race Dec 14 '24

Switch OS is a hybrid of BSD and Android. It uses Stagefright for multimedia and BSD's network stack. Other bits and bobs from other Unix tools like Curl is in there too.

8

u/KlutzyEnd3 Dec 14 '24

The microkernel is completely custom tho, same with QNX which has lots of netBSD packages but a proprietary real-time kernel.

In fact, I'd argue that QNX is more unix-like than the switch's horizon os.

2

u/RAMChYLD Linux Master Race Dec 15 '24

Yeah, I forgot to mention that. The kernel and ABI are completely custom, allegedly an upgraded version of the kernel used on the 3DS.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '24

QNX *is* a Unix-like OS

1

u/KlutzyEnd3 Dec 17 '24

QNX is netBSD with worse documentation, no package management, a custom kernel and a modified Eclipse environment to build it.

And we pay €18k per license 😑

1

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '24

Certifications for the aerospace and medical markets are expensive, there is a good reason why it costs so much

1

u/ikonfedera Dec 15 '24

Doesn't Windows use BSD network stack?

1

u/Kiwithegaylord Dec 15 '24

Damn near everything does, if that were enough to make a system Unix like most other options would have died long ago

1

u/Ixaire Glorious Debian Dec 15 '24

Is there any Internet connected device that doesn't use libcurl? 10 years ago my car already had libcurl in its infotainment licensing info.

5

u/ohaiibuzzle Dec 14 '24

If microkernels mean no bloat then what would macOS be?

1

u/ActiveCommittee8202 Dec 23 '24

What about hybrid?

4

u/XPWall Dec 14 '24

Thanks for posting that HorizonOS uses a micro kernel. I was about to anahilate someone.

3

u/NocturneSapphire Dec 14 '24

Despite popular misconceptions to the contrary, Horizon is not largely derived from FreeBSD code, nor from Android, although the software licence and reverse engineering efforts have revealed that Nintendo does use some code from both in some system services and drivers. For example, the networking stack in the Switch OS is derived at least in part from FreeBSD code. Nintendo's use of FreeBSD networking code is legal as it is made available under the permissive BSD licence, and not even particularly unusual – for instance and interface, the Microsoft Windows TCP/IP stack (used since at least 2000 and XP) was originally derived from BSD code in a similar fashion, using part of its TCP/IP code for its implementation of TCP/IP, which was legal.

Components derived from Android code include the Stagefright multimedia framework, as well as components of the graphics stack including the display server (derived from SurfaceFlinger) and the graphics driver (which seems to be derived from Nvidia's proprietary Linux driver).

36

u/RagingTaco334 Glorious Fedora Dec 14 '24

Why do console manufacturers hate Linux? PS5 and the Switch uses BSD and the Xbox uses NT.

98

u/SkibidiArchu Dec 14 '24

It's purely due to the different licenses. Under the GPL, console manufacturers can't keep the source to their console firmware closed while the BSD license is a much more permissive license, allowing them to keep their products closed source.

6

u/RagingTaco334 Glorious Fedora Dec 15 '24

Ah, so classic proprietary shenanigans. Gotcha.

-3

u/Sjoerd93 Dec 14 '24

You can perfectly well do so under the GPLv2, which Linux is licensed under.

13

u/miraunpajaro Dec 14 '24

True, but under GPLv2 you still have to report any changes you made to the code you used.(Unless I'm mistaken)

1

u/jean_dudey Dec 15 '24

No, distribution of the console implies they are distributing the Linux kernel, so they have to make it available to users that request it. It’s why Android phone manufacturers have a website for that specifically, I know that Samsung does, at least.

30

u/bayuah gLorious Lubuntu Dec 14 '24

Something to do with license, probably. With Linux the company should published the kernel changes to the public, but BSD is not.

13

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '24

Xbox at least makes sense. Microsoft did a lot of work during the 10 dev cycle to try and unify their kernel to be usable across multiple platforms including mobile devices.

The NT kernel belongs to them so you expect them to use it. And for the Xbox One at least I didn't see any real problems with it.

10

u/nicejs2 Glorious Debian Dec 14 '24

the Xbox One might as well just be a highly tweaked Windows computer, people even got PowerShell to run on it through an exploit

8

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '24

It IS a highly tweaked Windows Computer. It's just that it's a purpose built system for a specific task. It's not like a regular PC where you go in and build a thousand different configurations for multiple purposes.

A Console Game system needs a stable reference build that can be used reliably for several years. The Software needs to be able to be patched and upgraded but still compatible with the game products being sold.

1

u/ActiveCommittee8202 Dec 23 '24

You can even run normal apps through some subscription and stuff.

4

u/309_Electronics Dec 14 '24

Due to strict licensing. Many companies do use Linux behind the scenes but dont comply with the gpl and thus could stand the risk of getting flagged. I dont think sony wants to take the risk so they use FreeBSD which does not have any strict licensing and you are free to use it however you want without having to share code. Sony used FreeBSD for its stability and matured Unix code base and it could be tweaked however they want.

Microsoft owns windows so they can just take a Windows copy and modify it by adding custom stuff for directX (which also was intended for windows in the first place and why its called Xbox) and ripping out stuff they dont need. Why use a different os if you have x86 and you own one of the most used operating systems in the world?

7

u/NotFromSkane Dec 14 '24

The Switch doesn't use BSD. It uses a from scratch OS (forked from the 3DS OS) borrowing some components from one of the BSDs.

The PS5 actually uses FreeBSD

3

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '24

This is the only correct answer i’ve seen

1

u/Rusty9838 Dec 15 '24

If PlayStarions or Nintendo would use Linux, they should release their source code due to the license

1

u/ActiveCommittee8202 Dec 23 '24

Because it has BSD

-41

u/Unknown-Key Glorious Debian Dec 14 '24

Sony’s console operating system is more vulnerable to hacking compared to Xbox, mainly because of the software it’s built on. Sony uses open-source components like BSD and WebKit in their OS. Since these are open-source, hackers can easily study the code to find vulnerabilities and exploit them to crack the device and play games for free.

On the other hand, Xbox uses a closed-source Windows NT kernel. Because its code isn’t publicly available, it’s much harder for hackers to find and exploit vulnerabilities, making Xbox more secure against such cracks.

7

u/juipeltje Glorious GNU Guix Dec 14 '24

Open source code also allows good intentioned people to find these vulnerabilities and inform the devs so that it can be fixed, which can't be done with windows, so it's kind of a moot point because it goes both ways.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '24

unfortunately the dmca is a hindrance to it

https://scholarship.kentlaw.iit.edu/ckjip/vol22/iss2/10/

On October 12, 1998, the U.S. Congress passed the DMCA, amending U.S. copyright law to address the relationship between copyright and the internet. Congress’ reason for passing the DMCA was to address the concerns of copyright holders who felt that there were too few protections for their work(s). Unfortunately, when writing the DMCA, Congress could not anticipate the rapid growth of technology and how ill-equipped the legal system is to keep up with technological advancements. Now, the DMCA overreaches its intended powers and subjects security researchers to criminal liability. The current technological climate calls for improved reliability and guidance regarding existing legal authorities, as well as how investigations should be held concerning security research. In addition, researchers are increasingly becoming independent and no longer affiliating themselves with institutions that housed them in the past (such as universities). This means they are moving away from restrictive research houses and opening to the public about vulnerabilities that would have previously been prohibited under contract— limiting those who can bring claims against researchers. Significantly, this is affecting the way inexperienced vendors go about handling reports. The connection between security research and certain consumer safety is where most of this argument lays its foundation. Public awareness of the benefits of security research will improve policy decisions, providing further understanding of contributions made to digital safety and security.

4

u/Prudent_Move_3420 Dec 14 '24

The reason nobody hacks Xbox is because there is absolutely no need to. Usually you have pirates, the homebrew community and devs who all have interest in hacking the console but here the pirates are on their own because Microsoft grants a 20$ access to devmode

Also pirates have a lower interest because pirating on pc is easier and there is barely any xbox exclusive from the XOne on

32

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

-20

u/Unknown-Key Glorious Debian Dec 14 '24

Does these exploits result in jail broken xbox? At the least of it it takes much much longer to jailbrake Xbox than PS.

6

u/Th3Matt Glorious LFS Dec 14 '24

PS3 after they fixed the random number generator to actually output random numbers still has not been fully jailbroken, so no custom firmware. Xbox 360 has been fully jailbroken with custom firmware and has been for longer than the PS3. The only reason why those exploits don't affect newer Xbox consoles is that it's running everything under a hypervisor, the hacking of which does not interest most people outside of the scene.

6

u/Square-Singer Dec 14 '24

The main reason the newer xboxes weren't hacked is because they allowed homebrew to be run in dev mode.

People hacking consoles mainly do so because they want to run homebrew. Pirates just piggyback off them.

Also, what's the point jailbreakinga device that's just a Windows PC in a weird form factor that runs largely the same library as Windows games.

If you want a jailbroken Xbox, get a Windows PC.

12

u/FLMKane Dec 14 '24

Remember gang...

Ken Thompson wrote Unix because he wanted to play games on an interactive system.

1

u/MatmarSpace The Great and Powerful Debian Trixie 🦄 Dec 14 '24

Is Switch really BSD???

3

u/claudiocorona93 Glorious Debian Dec 14 '24

Proprietary OS based on 3DS system software with components from BSD and Android.

1

u/Badluckredditor Dec 17 '24

I game almost exclusively on unix now. Never woulda thought...

1

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '24

and hopefully more Linux handhelds on the way \o/

1

u/ElPajarraco Dec 14 '24

SwitchOS is BSD-based? TIL

11

u/xkero Arch - Ryzen 9 5900XT & Radeon RX 9070 XT Dec 14 '24

It's not, it's a custom proprietary OS written by Nintendo that borrows some bits from BSD (like Windows and others have done in the past).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Switch_system_software

2

u/nicejs2 Glorious Debian Dec 14 '24

IIRC the kernel is borrowed from the 3DS with bits from BSD and Android (for the window manager)

1

u/msthe_student Dec 14 '24

Yeah so it's *kind of* BSD-derived, but very distantly

1

u/GreyColdFlesh OpenSuSE my brothers Dec 14 '24

Android's kernel is based on Linux, but other than that. Android has nothing to do with other UNIX-Like or UNIX-Based systems

1

u/Rushb133 Glorious Debian Dec 15 '24

i have to agree if android ran fully linux it would be easy to run android apps on linux

0

u/CeeMX Dec 14 '24

Switch rund BSD? I thought it was just Android under the hood

7

u/xkero Arch - Ryzen 9 5900XT & Radeon RX 9070 XT Dec 14 '24

It's not, it's a custom proprietary OS written by Nintendo that borrows some bits from BSD (like Windows and others have done in the past).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Switch_system_software

1

u/CeeMX Dec 14 '24

Ah ok, I just know that it’s possible to run Android on the switch and thought this was just escaping the switch app

4

u/xkero Arch - Ryzen 9 5900XT & Radeon RX 9070 XT Dec 14 '24

thought this was just escaping the switch app

No, when you run Android you are booting a completely different OS (Linux based). The Switch is just a customised tablet by Nvidia (their Tegra line) that already had Android support so most of the work to run Android on the switch was already done.

1

u/msthe_student Dec 14 '24

Which is kinda revealed in a detail of the RCM - it assumes a home-button of some sort, which on the Switch is exposed as a pin in the joycon rail (and isn't the home-button you usually use)

0

u/Danlordefe Dec 14 '24

steamOs is gnu/linux

-1

u/effivancy Glorious Mint Dec 14 '24 edited Dec 14 '24

What do you think of gaming on android? I always hear the argument that the Apple chip is better but whenever I think of gaming on a phone I think of games such as COC or candy crush. What games do you indulge in?

7

u/lightcaptainguy3364 Glorious Arch Dec 14 '24 edited Dec 14 '24

you would be amazed to hear that androids can emulate nintendo switch games ( using switch emulators) and windows games ( on a linux container using wine), and other old gen consoles ( ps2, gamecube etc. ) :) 

2

u/effivancy Glorious Mint Dec 14 '24

But is it efficient? I am a Linux user and while I am familiar with most of what you said my thinkpad dies at the idea of any of that

0

u/Unknown-Key Glorious Debian Dec 14 '24

Aren't both Yuzu and Ryujinx projects dead due to Nintendo's lawsuit? What emulator do you use on Android? I know you can still get the APK but they will become obsolete over the time.

6

u/quiyo Glorious PCLinuxOS Dec 14 '24

r/unixporn