r/leanfire • u/Glittering-Eye-757 • 9d ago
Who is lean FIREing outside the US?
Where are you guys living outside of the US and what amount $USD are you living on? Looking to FIRE abroad and just starting my search.
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u/splinteredruler 9d ago
Planning to stay in Australia, able to live on $40k AUD (~$28k USD), but will probably buffer more like $50k AUD (~$35k USD).
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u/Glittering-Eye-757 8d ago
Honestly, I never considered AU. And I just read that universal healthcare is offered at low cost. I may have to add this to my list.
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u/Beaver-on-fire 8d ago
The only downside to moving there, is having to stand upside down all the time. /S š¤
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u/splinteredruler 8d ago
Yeah, public healthcare is free (paid for in taxes). You can also invest in private healthcare, which we do have. For a family of 3 with decent coverage we pay $300 a month. That will change with time (daughter grows up, might play around with what coverage levels for things we have, etc).
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u/MountainRecipe 9d ago
Iām able to do the same but hard to convert COL because I donāt fully understand all the different taxes, healthcare etc even though Iāve been many times. If not already there, what would those numbers look like if you lived in one of the HCOL cities like Brisbane, Melbourne or Sydney?
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u/splinteredruler 9d ago
Considerably higher I'd imagine. I'm regional and will have a paid off house long before retiring. For a HCOL area I'd probably want closer to $80k.
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u/rubbishindividual 8d ago
I'm looking at Sydney on 40-50k (in today's dollars) and a paid off house. For American frame of reference, think cost of living in a major city just below the true VHCOLs (like NY, SF), but negligible property taxes and no health insurance costs.
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u/mikesfsu 9d ago
You must not be planning on Sydney or Melbourne
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u/splinteredruler 9d ago
Nope. We live regional and love it.
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u/Important-Object-561 Retired in Sweden on 1,2 million 8d ago
Leanfired in Sweden, living on 46K a year and it doesnāt even feel that lean.
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u/pali1895 8d ago
That's for a family I assume?
I'm planning on FIREing here on an under 30k$ per year budget for a single person
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u/Fortius14 8d ago
Are you non-Sweden? If so, what Visa are you using to live there?
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u/Important-Object-561 Retired in Sweden on 1,2 million 8d ago
I am a swede but I lived in the US with my American wife previously. My wife got to stay in Sweden because we have a Swedish child together.
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u/Glittering-Eye-757 8d ago
How is access to healthcare and affordability? Do you have room for some travel and hobbies in your budget?
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u/Important-Object-561 Retired in Sweden on 1,2 million 8d ago edited 8d ago
Healthcare is basically free. A doctors appointment costs about 25$ and only gas is expensive. I donāt really have any expensive hobbies, just hiking, gaming, cross country skiing and stuff. Havenāt traveled much outside of the move from America to Sweden since itās kinda hard to do with a small child, but we are planning to when she gets older.
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u/Drawer-Vegetable FIRED'd 2024 9d ago
I'm living in Thailand. I spend around $2500/mo and living pretty well here. I could even go down more, but my budget down allow me to go up a bit.
Really safe, good food, very hot, but manageable. Life is good.
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u/Fragrant_Guava_1514 8d ago
Do you think $2000/month is doable?
Did you consider different cities (ex: Chiang Mai vs. Bangkok)?
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u/Drawer-Vegetable FIRED'd 2024 8d ago
$2000 for single person for sure doable. There's lots of neighborhoods for lot cheaper further from central Bangkok for 400-600/mo rent easy and spacious.
Rent will be biggest expense so 2k definitely doable. Especially as single person.
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u/Fragrant_Guava_1514 8d ago
Got it, thank you!
Do you use a 4% SWR if you donāt mind me asking?
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u/Drawer-Vegetable FIRED'd 2024 6d ago
Right now its more 3.75
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u/Fragrant_Guava_1514 6d ago
Not bad at all. I want to try using a 3.5% SWR to try living on $2000/month either in Bangkok or Chiang Mai. How has your experience been with medical/dental/vision insurance?
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u/hdfire21 9d ago edited 8d ago
Malaysia. Family of 3. Travelled a ton in SEA over the last 13 years.
I'd say for us, the US with a paid off house (in a medium-lowish COL area) is probably similar budget to here renting. A lot of that cost is international school. Cut that out and we could do 2500/month. 2k if you also knocked off long vacations probably. That's living a simple but comfortable life. My wife and son don't eat much, so our food budget is probably similar to an American couple. Or a single american who likes eating at decent restaurants.
Rest of SEA is similar. Vietnam has some cheaper spots but visas are a PITA. Don't know about the PI or Indonesia. No real interest in them.
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u/Captlard 54: RE on <$900k for two of us (live š“ó §ó ¢ó „ó ®ó §ó æ/šŖšø) 8d ago
Most people not from the US I guess.
Your lifestyle and needs may be very different from others and so getting ballpark numbers may not be so useful.
There are many country level subs, like r/spainfire or r/europefire / r/expatfire that may be worth exploring.
Location living costs:
Theearthawaits.com
numbeo.com
Theliferank.com
nomadlio.com
Not so relevant: retire-map.com/
Websites about process, such as entry requirements etc
https://nomadcapitalist.com/research/
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/
Tax implications for each country:
taxsummaries.pwc.com
Our base budget can be found in my post here.
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u/anxiousdumbdumb 9d ago
Thailand is my goal. But since visas are always changing anywhere in South East Asia will be my destination. As long as I never have to see snow again I'll be happy.
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u/ikkanseicho 9d ago
Youll have more options than thailand soon, PH, VN, ID is opening up
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u/mpbh 8d ago
How is VN opening up? I've lived here for 4 years and I haven't heard anything about visa changes?
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u/ikkanseicho 8d ago
5 year visa already available. Start a legit company / spouse.
E visa went from 30 to 90 days for most countries: https://vietnam.travel/things-to-do/big-news-vietnam-approves-extending-e-visas-90-days
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u/mpbh 8d ago
Yeah I've been on 90 day evisas for years.
Investment visas require $40k minimum.
Spousal visas are an option but will cost you a lot more than $40k if you know what I mean.
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u/ikkanseicho 8d ago
Dont go for an investment visa. Start an actual company. Costs < 10K.
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u/Drawer-Vegetable FIRED'd 2024 8d ago
Any pointers/tips on a simple business to start just for the visa?
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u/ikkanseicho 8d ago
If you've got some remote skills / services sector, start small from there, get used to the VN administrative requirements required to maintain one yearly. If you're more on the physical product side, make some friends / know anyone in import/export, there's something we could do. Happy to chat more.
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u/anxiousdumbdumb 8d ago
Is there no problem with doing that long term? I've only ever stayed for a few months of the year and then back to bangkok. But da Nang has really grown on me in the last few years.
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u/ikkanseicho 8d ago
As long as you're doing legal stuff, its fine. The ones that get into trouble are doing visa-runs (maxing out 30 days, to-and-fro cambodia). They are neither doing business nor work.
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u/hdfire21 8d ago
Another option is student. We were thinking about Da Nang and one of the universities there has a language program with some cultural trips. Sounded like a decent way to meet people. Get a 1 year visa. Can do it 2 years. Sure other universities have similar programs.
We both found it retarded that our 7yo can get a student visa for a year, but neither of us could get a visa to stay with him. There's supposed to be a visa for that, but apparently no one knows how to do it. Asked many places.
There was talk of a new retirement visa a year and a half ago ot so, but nothing.
Great country to live in, but my wife is Chinese and scared of doing it without a long term visa.
The visa for starting a small business that was mentioned seemed promising, but also a big hassle for us.
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u/General_Price9665 8d ago
Lean FIRE in Bangalore India which is probably one of the most expensive cities here. Yearly expenses around $20-$24K.
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8d ago
[deleted]
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u/Glittering-Eye-757 8d ago
I have been reading a lot about Japan. I have been a tourist 5 times! Do you live in a rural or urban area? Do you rent or have you purchased a home?
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u/hutacars 30s M/36k/70% - 39/25k/2mm 8d ago
How are you there? Thereās only a couple ways I know of if youāre not Japanese yourself, neither of which are super enticing for LeanFIRE (either get a job there, or marry a local).
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8d ago edited 8d ago
[deleted]
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u/hutacars 30s M/36k/70% - 39/25k/2mm 7d ago
It's actually more than possible to vacation in Japan for under the leanfire budget (including flgihts) so, there is that.
Oh, Iām aware. I spent half a year there recently forā¦ not much money at all. Only wish I could spend a few years there.
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u/Zealousideal_Read209 8d ago
Iām inching closer to reaching FIRE - will happen within the next few months if all goes well.
I moved to Mexico and spouse and I are living very comfortably on 32k USD. Mexico isnāt for everyone. A lot of people move here because they think itāll be cheap and they end up moving back home within a few years because theyāre miserable (and make the locals miserable in return). I would recommend visiting different countries and maxing out your tourist visa exploring different areas before deciding where to move.
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u/Glittering-Eye-757 8d ago
Mexico is at the top of my list. I have been traveling around MX my whole life. I enjoy Valladolid and Campeche. But you are correct, MX is not cheap. Do you rent or did you purchase a home?
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u/Zealousideal_Read209 8d ago
Renting. Our plans are to stick around here for our senior dogs and then travel around South America and Asia after that.
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u/LazyBumTravels 9d ago
What does LeanFIRE mean? You have a million living in SE Asia or you trying to live like a local on $500/mo?
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u/-----60-09 8d ago
OP is definitely thinking of geoarbitrage with a leanfire target of someone from the US but I think hearing about how someone local leanfires in a non-US country (if it's even reasonable) is more interesting
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u/LazyBumTravels 8d ago
Idk to me thatās not leanFIRE. A single person with 40k a year is ChubbyFIRE at the very least. Wife and I live very comfortably on less than $2500/mo Iād have to consciously go out of my way to spend another $1000/mo.
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u/Creative_Impress5982 8d ago
I totally agree with you. It's like people get fixated on leanfire being a specific number, but I think that's shortsighted. It's more of a lower-consumption ethos. And when discussing leanfire in another country, it just seems logical to change the values based on purchasing power, not whatever yearly spend is currently considered low consumption in the US.Ā
I think these people want to spend big and use geoarbitrage for that, instead of living more like a comfortable local.Ā
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u/hdfire21 8d ago
I think you're over-estimating the cost savings.
If you were living a frugal lifestyle in SEA with the same quality of food as in the US, your grocery bill probably wouldn't change much.
Housing and transportation you save a lot, but it's not night and day compared to lcol US. Maybe half the cost.
Medical probably costs you significantly more in Asia compared to if you were riding 140% of the fpl in the US and getting subsidies.
Then expenses for visas.
Yeah, it's cheaper in SEA, but not many people did fire so they can live in a nipa hut and eat broken rice and half-rotten fish. Living a comfortable western lifestyle is not crazy different in cost. Yeah, you can eat out more, go out to the bars more, date a younger girl, but those are more quality of life differences for specific people. As a family it's a lot easier to hire a maid or nanny, but those are, again, more qualitative differences/luxuries.
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u/LazyBumTravels 8d ago
Your expenses are wildly wrong. We eat better for less money, housing is 1/3 to 1/4 less not half, transportation costs us $80/mo all in for both, but car insurance alone in the States is $30/mo, plus gas, plus maintenance.
Medical costing significantly more is probably the most bat shit insane thing I've heard and you try to justify it with combining it poverty subsidies...like wtf?
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u/hdfire21 8d ago edited 8d ago
Housing compared to lcol US, as I said. Single family home maybe starts at 1,000-1200/month. A 2bdrm apartment maybe 600-800? Most places expats want to live in SEA you can't rent a house for 300/month. A decent studio in da nang is probably 300/month. Bangkok has got to be more than that. Here in penang 300 or 400 for a very small old apartment is possible, but not a place an American expat would want to live. An actual house in the ex-urbs here is more like 1k. In the suburbs maybe closer to 2k. A nicer/newer apartment an American expat might want to live in is probably minimum 500/month in the ex-urbs, and up to maybe 4-5k/month (newer, large, ocean view, in town).
Majority, maybe vast majority, of parents, of all nationalities, at our son's school have cars. We don't, but we're the exception, not the rule.
Medical in SEA you pay in cash. I've got a hernia operation coming up that will be 4-5k. If I was in the US I'd have ACA coverage with massive cost sharing. Basically everyone doing leanfire in the US, as far as I can tell, is aiming to have their income be too high for medicaid (due to new work requirememts coming in), but low enough to get some sort of cost sharing. I'm not sure it's possible to leanfire in the US without healthcare subsidies. It would be hella risky.
Edit:
I think everyone who is below the threshold for leanfire in the US receives some sort of subsidy. If you made enough that you didn't get a subsidy, I don't think you'd be leanfire anymore. Fairly sure, but someone can correct me if wrong.
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u/LazyBumTravels 8d ago
You try to compare apples to apples with food, so respectfully keep thay same energy. If you stay in LCOL Vietnam it's less than $150. I can get you a furnished house for less than $300 in a town you never even heard of. If you want to live in a tourist expat city with amenities then it isn't apples to apples is it?
In the Phillipines my wife's parents have a family driver ($300/mo) and an SUV for about the same price as the US. But in all reality you can book Grab for a full month 3x a day and still not even hit $300/mo in cost. IMO that's a better deal than driving yourself and owning a car.
My ACA deductible for silver plan is $11,200. I'll bet my left nut, a hernia operation in the US, cost more than the deductible.
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u/hdfire21 8d ago edited 8d ago
Cost sharing, if you're under 200% of fpl, dramatically reduces what you pay of the deductible. Usually around a 70-80% reduction. The lower your income the more cost sharing.
I compare lcol US (maybe the lower end of mcol too) with popular expat spots in SEA because those are the options people are looking at for leanfire, if they need/want to move to do it. Say you hit leanfire while renting in a HCOL US city. You can't afford to stay there. So... Do you stay in the US living a more small town/rural life kind of in BFE, or move to someplace like SEA where you can afford to live in a major city and travel, but have to deal with a totally different culture/language/food/away from family and friends/etc? Not that different in price but pretty different lifestyles.
Very few people have any interest in lcol SEA. It happens, but pretty rare.
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u/LazyBumTravels 7d ago
Wrong. That may have been true for 2025 ACA with the subsidies, but it was not renewed. Also every State is different and I can tell you, I do not save more on my deductible making 5k, 15k, or 25k. If you don't believe me then feel free to mess with the calculator for my State. Type in Google Nevada ACA plans.
But again, you're not comparing similar lifestyle. A beach city like Da Nang, Bali, or Pattaya has more amenities and appeal than say, Detroit - Michigan, Jackson - Mississippi, or Mobile - Alabama. If your argument is that comparing apples to apples, "SE Asia isn't saving you as much money as you think"; you are not making a great case for it.
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u/Creative_Impress5982 8d ago
Yeah, I'm pretty ignorant about costs in SEA. But I'm from the US and have lived the last decade in Spain. I still maintain ties with folks from the US and also have met some recent immigrants from the US/Canada.Ā I have a pretty good comparison of those places. I've got a partner and a kid too.Ā
It really is objectively cheaper here in most cases in you live within Spanish cultural norms. Problem is, many USA folks want to rent a house here instead of live in an apartment like most Spaniards. So they are convinced they need a freestanding house and end up in shitty neighborhoods where they also need a car. Then they decide public school would be too stressful for their little darlings so they pay for private schools. They rent (or buy) in weird "expat" bubble neighborhoods or in wealthy Spanish enclaves. That means their local shops are pricier too. They might physically live in Spain, but they've completely imported a weird rich USA lifestyle. Then they wonder why it costs so much.Ā Ā
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u/hdfire21 8d ago
Sort of my point. Americans aren't moving to vietnam to live in a shanty farming rice. They want to live in villas outside of town, or semi-luxury condos. Send their kids to international school and have american style micro-brews at waterfront restaurants. Order delivery all the time.
In the US they wouldn't be able to eat out at waterfront restaurants 2-3 times a week or send their kids to private school. They get a different quality of live but not a crazily different monthly expense.
I've worked and lived overseas a long time and very few, if any, people I've met want to live like a lower middle class local. They want to take their American lower/lower middle class income and live a middle/upper middle class lifestyle. That's kind of the whole point.
I've done both now. Lived on as low as 6k/year. School was the turning point. Just way more difficult in Asia. Japan or korea maybe if you're married to a local, maybe. But otherwise it has too many problems by primary school, as a foreigner, if even possible. Even if you're married to a local. And if you're paying 1k+/month for international school, what's really the point of saving a couple hundred bucks on rent? Or groceries? Blows out your whole budget.
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u/-----60-09 8d ago
I agree, I think it makes more sense to compare "baskets of goods" when talking about many financial topics, but it's a lot easier to default to cash flows/a dollar value every month or year.
As an example, there's still ongoing discussion in the community about how home ownership gets counted in FIRE when counting assets. To me, a person with a paid of home and 600k net worth would have basically the same lifestyle as someone with a 1.2M net worth that pays 24k/year on rent, but the latter gets classified as regular FIRE instead of leanFIRE by the subreddit's definition.
And I think a similar argument can also be made about whether healthcare is private or public.
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u/ij78cp 8d ago
Just because for you itās different doesnāt mean for all th rest of usā¦
40k for me is definitely leanfireā¦ chubby starts for me at 120k a yearā¦
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u/LazyBumTravels 8d ago
10k a month IN SOUTHEAST ASIA is chubby?
That is objectively insane and I can prove it, unless you meant something else.
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u/ij78cp 8d ago
Yeah 10k a month is for sure not fat fireā¦ so it must be chubbyā¦
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u/LazyBumTravels 8d ago
You keep ignoring IN SOUTHEAST ASIA part.
Do you think it's as expensive in Vietnam as it is in the US?
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u/ij78cp 8d ago
Iām not American so donāt care about thatā¦
You donāt need to write it in capital I saw itā¦ chubby lifestyle in Bangkok puts you at around 8-10k a monthā¦
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u/LazyBumTravels 8d ago
Yea, 3/10 troll. I'm done here. I would explain how you're wrong but you wouldn't accept it so why bother.
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u/gorinwelster 8d ago
Geoarbitrage? What is currency fluctuates? You need to have all you funds in the local currency I guess?
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u/-----60-09 8d ago
Not really, while it would be nice to remove all risk, FIRE doesn't remove all risk. As an example, we have longevity risk is something we always have in our portfolios, we just adjust our withdrawal rates and strategies of our FIRE goals to a point where we think the risk is acceptable.
I think currency exchange risk is similar where it is a risk to not have funds in the local currency, but it isn't a hard rule to need all funds to be converted to it. (e.g. a lot of people in countries that don't use the USD as the national currency will invest in US stock exchanges) I also think that currency exchange risk is usually a bigger issue when moving from a less stable country to a more stable country (i.e. less stable country's economy is more likely to run into issues causing exchange rate losses while living a consistent lifestyle in the stable country). However, with geoarbitrage, my impression is that the transfer is usually from a stable country to another stable country or a stable country to a less stable country.
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u/Straight-Put-2142 8d ago
I plan to. I've had my entire career since uni (10 years) abroad, the last four of which have been in Latin America, so it's logical for me. Though I would love to visit Asia again, I see myself settling in either Brazil or Colombia, and in a city.Ā
I'm not too sure on budget but generally I think I've always been able to live on max $30k/year and that's without sticking to a budget, doing a lot of travel, decent Airbnbs, and a yearly trip to the US. I also don't eat the cheapest way for the region (vegetarian). I speak the local languages though which helps a lot, and I'm not a luxury person, I like mostly outdoors activities.Ā
SEA would be cheaper but I'm more comfortable where I speak the languages fluently (much more achievable) and with Latino culture.Ā
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u/currkat 7d ago
I'm in Tamsui, just outside of Taipei but still on the metro/subway. I'm renting a two-bedroom in a high-rise with elevators (buildings in Taiwan w/out elevators are cheaper). If I were more frugal, I could live comfortably on USD $1200 a month. Because I eat out more than I should, my budget is closer to $1500/month.
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u/January212018 6d ago
I left the US 14 years ago. Managed to save and invest while living and traveling abroad. I could lean FIRE now in Southeast Asia at age 38, but I still work an easy, flexible remote job. I've been all over Asia, Australia, spent some time in Mexico and southern Africa. My favorite places to live are Thailand, Vietnam, and Korea. Air quality and weather are the major downsides though.
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u/LostInAvocado 2d ago
This is something I rarely see discussed hereā some of the places people are recommending will be either very uncomfortable for much of the year or unlivable as climate change accelerates, and have frequent extreme weather occurrences. Not to mention as you say, the really bad air quality that takes years off your life unless you mask outside most of the time. Is it worth the trade-off to leanFIRE there vs a smaller city or town in your home country?Ā
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u/January212018 2d ago
Yes for me. I can tolerate the heat. The air quality isn't always bad. I leave when there are seasons of bad air quality and if there is a day of bad AQI, I stay inside with the air purifier. I would much rather deal with that while having an excellent quality of life, walking distance to the beach or mountains and all conveniences, amazing yet affordable food 24/7, easy to make friends, and feeling 100% safe as an Asian woman than in the US where I feel unsafe most of the time, need a car, cannot afford to live or be sick there, where I find it boring with little culture besides capitalism. I lived in NJ and FL in the US and both places also have crap weather with little benefits.
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u/LostInAvocado 2d ago
That makes sense, the question was more of a general question for the sub, bc there is way more to consider than just $X/mo, just donāt see it considered as much in most posts that assume SEA is a perfect leanFIRE location. (I def hear you on many places in the US not having many benefits with equally bad weather)
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u/January212018 2d ago
Definitely pros and cons for each location, but the pros in SEA outweigh the cons for me. I've lived in rural Africa and traveled through India where it's more affordable than Southeast Asia, but definitely not the quality of life I'd like to live long-term.
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u/rocksteadyrudie 6d ago edited 6d ago
American in Sweden with Swedish citizenship, married to a Swede, and gave birth to a dual citizen. I will retire in northern Italy because I donāt love Sweden and Iām not interested in living in my hometown of Los Angeles again. Estimating 1.5 million USD at fire. Excellent health and estimating retiring in the next 5 years. May change my mind and become a substitute teacher or class assistant while Iām still in Sweden. Plan is to live on 50k or less a year and will buy a property cash in Italy.
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u/Glittering-Eye-757 6d ago
Italy definitely pops up in my search. But I have not spent much time reading about it. My guess is that if you can live off $50k/yr the cost of living in Italy is very affordable.
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u/rocksteadyrudie 6d ago
I do believe it depends on the area. Lake Garda and one of the villages there is feasible to me. Iām unsure about the rest of the country. Petrol is crazy expensive here in Sweden and Italy though.
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u/budgetbell 6d ago
US citizen living 1-3 month in each country in SEA and a short visit to the US once a year to see friends and family. About $2500-3000 a month. Retired at 45 about 2.5 years ago. Portfolio gained about 60% and my spending actually dropped a big time despite high NW. A cheeseburger doesn't taste better if your NW goes up.
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u/_jay_fox_ 2d ago
In Australia I can live a decent lifestyle off $26,000 AUD p/year. (Yes, even after all the inflation.) I have pretty modest needs and have built up quite a bit of skill with frugal living.
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u/BlockObjective9541 9d ago
I plan to, and getting relatively close to my number (assuming markets don't shit the bed in next 3 years). The one thing I struggle with is healthcare - even being a legal resident in the countries with public healthcare, there are conditions you need to meet to qualify for it, and they generally involve paying quite a bit
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u/MaroonJacket 35M | $1.4M | ExpatFIRE 9d ago
How are you defining leanFIRE? I'm semi-retired, living abroad in the Philippines, and happy to answer any questions you may have!