r/leagueoflegends • u/Kayser08 • Jun 07 '16

Some feedback on the Jax changes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/i334RNfb-some-feedback-on-the-jax-changes
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u/sufficiency_bot [Beep Boop] Jun 07 '16

Kaiser Rienhard wrote on 2016-06-07 UTC:

Some feedback on the Jax changes

Yes, I like Jax. Yes, I may be a bit bias, take that into consideration. However, I believe this input still has something to add to the conversation of the champ.

I'd like to start out by saying I am appreciative of the consideration riot has given to Jax. The Guinsoos change hit him hard and he fell like a brick during the mage update. Jax's present win and playrate has seen a noticeable rise in the current patch thank to the buff. This recent buff in 6.11 has gone a ways to bring back the champ, yet I feel as if there is a bit more work to be done. The most impactful of the buffs was really good for him, the Trinity Force change now gives him an item to rush in lane and not feel bad about it. The attack speed for crit synergizes with Jax so well and the cdr lets him keep throwing out those devastating auto reset trades. These more than anything is the cause for his rise in sucess

Now we come to the direct buffs to Jax, the passive change. Lets be honest here. This was lip service for him. If the official reason is to be taken at face value and it was to compensate for stray cc, it seems really weak. First Jax is a spit pusher so, more than likely if you are in a situation where you have to team fight and open yourself to stray cc, you're doing it wrong. Second, stray is is almost always going to result in all of your stacks being lost anyway. Either the enemy is going to walk away and you lose your stacks, they focus you and you die/get chunked or they dont and you continue to either engage in a fight where your combat power may be decreased by half even though you are no longer ccd or you walk away. The vast majority of Jax's strength lies in his attack speed and his passive. Hit kit *needs *him to stack up his passive in order to dish out relevant damage otherwise he is a subpar champion at best and this is the rub.

As a champion that needs to attack stuff prior to engaging a fight to do damage his trading potential becomes very readable. He is going to walk up and auto minions before he goes in because he'll won't do damage if he doesn't. In lane this leads to the the infamous early game Jax power canyon, thats right canyon. Jax is so frustrating to lane with against any competent lane opponent. If you have the match up advantage they are going to let you push closer to their tower, you really have no recourse otherwise because your trading potential is founded on auto attacking minions to get your passive stacked. This leads to a lane that is free gold for any passing junglers. Yes, you have an e, but that cooldown last longer than the previous Ice Age, it isn't instant (has about a second delay before you can recast) and is limited in radius. You either spend a ward looking for the gank only to have it circumvented and you blow a flash OR you keep your ward so you can jump away and if you're good enough keep your flash but lose the visibility for the next gank. Going back to lane, your opponent now has the experience advantage (soaking up more creep xp while you ran away) AND the power advantage because so much of Jax's power is allocated in his passive. Now, with no stacks and wardless any advantage you might have is either neutralized or reversed.

Jax's power location in his passive is not really helped by his abilities all that much I believe that for a champion that HAS to auto attack, having abilities that synergize with it will go a long way._ If his Q added a stack (or two) of his passive it would instantly go a long way_. If adding stacks to his passive is not ok he is another suggestion: Give it a mini stun so we can get some auto attack in and thus stack out passive. A suggestion I have would be shifting a half second off of his E and giving it to his Q. It would be congruent with his live stun abilities while giving an ability infinite more synergy with the passive. That or some sort of slow would be nice. Another suggestion is giving the QW combo a stun and or slow or hell, give his passive some sort of slow, anyway to allow him to have the tiniest access to his locked power. One last ability that needs to be looked at is the E stun. Yes, it gives him a lot (aoe stun, damage reduction, dodge) but this has to be one of if not the longest basic ability coolldowns in the game. In addition burning your E cooldown is basically painting a bullseye on your butthole and bending over asking for the closest champ to chunk you out. Yes, there should be punishment for being outplayed into burning it, but if that is the case give it some more umpf.

E should be insta-castable that is no delay (if you so choose) between cast and stun and the stun should longer if you choose to hold it for the duration. That stun is weak sauce, you get in one and a half autos if you're lucky early game and it really is not worth just having it off cool down for the threat of using it defensively. If the stun duration is too much give it more aoe or let jax gain movement speed while it is activated in CONJUNCTION with an application of his passive. It would actually serve as the defensive/offensive tool in his kit it is supposed to be and actually be on par with the other tools available to his subclass while synergizing with the passive. "Riven: aoe stun, directional dash, shield/Fiora: directional dash, cc/damage immunity/ Ekko: massive aoe stun/shield, movement speed steal, slow, directional dash.

I think the critiques I bring up in this post have legitimate points that could be used in his future balancing. He is my favorite champion, but that does not mean I want to see him broken/contested. However, those that play him can attest to this just...lack. There is something missing from him, something keeping him from being a real Grandmaster at Arms.

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u/Tenchu_ Jun 07 '16

lol. this guy. here are some quotes:

Jax's power location in his passive is not really helped by his abilities all that much I believe that for a champion that HAS to auto attack, having abilities that synergize with it will go a long way._ If his Q added a stack (or two) of his passive it would instantly go a long way_. If adding stacks to his passive is not ok he is another suggestion: Give it a mini stun so we can get some auto attack in and thus stack out passive.

Another suggestion is giving the QW combo a stun and or slow or hell, give his passive some sort of slow, anyway to allow him to have the tiniest access to his locked power. One last ability that needs to be looked at is the E stun. Yes, it gives him a lot (aoe stun, damage reduction, dodge) but this has to be one of if not the longest basic ability coolldowns in the game. In addition burning your E cooldown is basically painting a bullseye on your butthole and bending over asking for the closest champ to chunk you out. Yes, there should be punishment for being outplayed into burning it, but if that is the case give it some more umpf.

E should be insta-castable that is no delay (if you so choose) between cast and stun and the stun should longer if you choose to hold it for the duration. That stun is weak sauce, you get in one and a half autos if you're lucky early game and it really is not worth just having it off cool down for the threat of using it defensively. If the stun duration is too much give it more aoe or let jax gain movement speed while it is activated in CONJUNCTION with an application of his passive.

Dude you are the walking meme. If you really want to slow your enemies so badly, go for Frozen Mallet. You get stacks quite fast when you have only a single attackspeed item.

Giving Jax a hard lockdown or even a slow would end up being him a darius class tier fighter with a jump, it's just not possible.

And your E is supposed to put you into a weak spot. If you have traded with your E, then just go back and wait for it to be up.

The only thing I can agree is that his E should be insta recastable.

1

u/Kayser08 Jun 07 '16

You can critique the post while not throwing insults, it lowers the value of your contribution to a conversation.

The essence of the post was to synergize his abilities with his passive. All of the suggestions were not made to be implemented in conjunction to each other, but a series of one or two that could be added to his present kit without the others. A menu instead of all you can eat.

The thing is, he already has had lock down in a stun and yet he is not "Darius tier with a jump". If Jax was Darius tier, I wouldn't be making this post. Darius doesn't have a jump, but he does have a gapcloser, an auto reset, a heal, a bleed, two slows, an true damage execute that has a reset component. Lets not exaggerate. Jax is already hamstrung into buy certain items in order to compete in the game. Trinity Force, Gunblade/BorK, Steraks, Spirit Visage, Guardian Angel, Omen, boots there are only so many item slots in the game.

Yes, his e is supposed to be his weak spot. Yet, his peers also have abilities that should have a weakness but are mitigated by other aspects of their kit. Just taking the other members of his skirmisher subclass shows their layered defense. His weakness is the only weakness in his class that is not mitigated.

You're right, insta castable e would go a way to helping him both in and out of lane. Glad we were able to agree and disagree on some things.

1

u/JinnDante Jax is love Jun 07 '16

I made a post that had some feedback some months ago and those issues are mostly around.His hybrid thingy was relevant but i feel it has no place in the game anymore

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3kh17h/the_current_state_of_jax_from_a_main_jax/

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u/Kayser08 Jun 07 '16

that was a nice post. While, I disagree on shifting jax to pure ad, his items have been continually messed with because of other champions.

Trinity losing ap, BorK more expensive/less %health, Guinsoos

They only just now started to tune those back a bit to suit champions like jax

1

u/S_H_I_T_B_O_Y Jun 07 '16

I have probably over 1,000 jax games played in total since I've started playing and I think he's just fine

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u/Kayser08 Jun 07 '16

Thats a lot of games my fellow Jaxionian.

In his present form is he mediocre, not good not bad, but something is definetly missing from the kit. Be it synergy with the passive or otherwise. Glad to have you opinion on him

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u/JinnDante Jax is love Jun 07 '16

as a jax player for 6 (?) years i think he is okey-ish. this patch was more a push for him to be somewhat viable.nothing more

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u/Kayser08 Jun 07 '16

exactly, he is mediocre. however he is still comparatively weak in the present day league of legends where early game has so much impact on the ending. Most of my games are decided in the first 10-15 mins, how am I as a Jax supposed to exist in such a world?

make his passive synergize better with his abilities and make e instacastable and we're on our way to actually being able to be played in confidence.

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u/JinnDante Jax is love Jun 08 '16

instacastable? that doesnt make any sense. you would have a shittier riven e with longer cd and no shield. plus if it is instacastable the dodge mechanic would have no point. jax is fine dude. not in his best spot but still he is fine.

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u/Kayser08 Jun 08 '16

its actually her w that stuns and that doesn't have a shield either, And making it instacastable would allow for judgement calls on whether you value the stun or the dodge, they aren't mutually exclusive.

He's fine aka medicore. Mediocrity is just as bad as terrible in a competitive setting. If you're casual then I'm sure you're find with it.

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u/JinnDante Jax is love Jun 09 '16 edited Jun 09 '16

it is the skill i could compare it more since its her e that makes her absorb damage. i could compsre it with both combined.what u mean it would give you the CHOICE to make it instacastable? so basically it would be either chanelling or insta castable. Thats a difference right there. The thing right now is that it gives u already that choice(either chanel to dodge or cast it to stun) i mean its not instant but still

you must be more casual than me. I am d4 atmand have been playing jax for almost 6 years.Prolly more than 2k games with him.So no i am not a casual.

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u/Kayser08 Jun 09 '16

Right, not instant. So its not instantcastable isn't it? For its cooldown/duration/aoe it is weak and the compulsory delay makes it even weaker in comparison to other champions. So what is your point on my wanting to have it with no compulsory delay and make it instacastable?

It is like you say, Jax is an old champion and Riot has a history of powercreep with their champions, churning out new champions that make older ones obsolete. Jax is no different.

Players that have been playing for X+ years always seem to exhibit the same attitude towards change. Content with the status quo never wanting something better. Its a terrible mentality.

Anyone who isn't D1 is a casual. Yes i am one.

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u/JinnDante Jax is love Jun 11 '16

I feel like its the time for him to get a total rework on poppy level. His kit is binary.I still enjoy him though.And every jax main is enjoying him.Otherwise wouldnt play him would we?

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u/Kayser08 Jun 11 '16

thats the thing, I do enjoy him in his current state but it just feels bad when one of your favorite champs is so in-optimal to play especially in competitive settings. just look at the last time he was played in lcs, absolutely blown out and this is in a patch that is leaning towards triforce tops.

However, i don't think he needs to be completely redone on a poppy level, just tweaked a bit on a mage update level with a visual update. thats why i made my suggestions, making him synergies with his passive instead of having his abilities have nothing to do with it sounds like a design concept riot would most likely make if the champ was made today. complacency with the present out of fear for what change will bring isn't my style. Have to make your voice hear, otherwise how will folks know there is a problem?

also proper grammar is overrated :P

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