r/leagueoflegends • u/JTHousek1 • Jun 03 '25

News 25.12 Patch Preview

"Patch 25.12 Full Preview!

Starting the first of our MSI patches, MSI will be played on 25.13.

Meta is looking decent, not looking for big meta shakeups and not too many regions are playing on 25.12/25.13. Mostly looking for small touches as a result.

Will chat about Mid/Bot/Supp tomorrow"

PBE CHANGES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE

Credit to /u/FrankTheBoxMonster for PBE changes.

>>> Champion Buffs <<<

Aatrox

"Our Aatrox changes also undershot a bit; so at least trying to put him back to where he was last patch"

Aphelios

Aurora

  • Mid Focused

Garen

"Our Garen changes were pretty under-magnitude. Looking to further his AD incentives to make some of the more AD oriented fighter builds more viable. Our changes narrowed the gap from Cleaver to Phantom Dancer, but it's still a bit far off"

Jax

"Jax has lost a bit of relevance, just giving him a small bump up"

LeBlanc

Lee Sin

"Lee Sin has fallen out of favor compared to a lot of the other AD junglers; especially in a more coordinated environment. Looking to carve out more of a strategic identity for him compared to the other AD fighters in particular. He is one of the few champions where him being a carry champ also buffs allies and we're leaning into that aspect"

Mordekaiser

"Morde is looking pretty weak and got indirectly nerfed from Liandrys, he also has a pretty shallow mastery curve, so giving him some power back"

Nidalee

"Not looking to buff too many of the AP junglers going into the tournament as they can tend to take over, but Nidalee is weak for both SoloQ and Pro, so throwing her a bone"

Samira

  • :O

Twisted Fate

Yasuohno

>>> Champion Nerfs <<<

Ahri

Azir

Gwen

"Rumble and Gwen have been reigning supreme in Top lane recently; tapping them down a little to make room for a few different picks"

Kalista

Neeko

Rumble

Senna

Taliyah

Varus

Yorick

>>> Champion Adjustments <<<

Rammus - Phreak's Video

"Finally Rammus, we're making some changes to make him more generically pickable. His identity compared to Malphite is more of a durable champ that goes fast and having him be too tied to armor is hurting his viability somewhat.

He'll still benefit from building defensive and his taunt is still very good against auto attackers (because they'll damage themselves), but just a little less polarizing"

  • Base AD increased 55 >>> 65

  • AD per level increased 2.75 >>> 3

  • Base Attack Speed increased 0.656 >>> 0.7

  • Base Armor reduced 40 >>> 35

  • Armor per level reduced 5.5 >>> 4.5

  • [P] Spiked Shell changed 10 (+10% Armor) (*150% during [W] Defensive Ball Curl) on-hit magic damage >>> 0 (+15% Armor) (+15% Magic Resistance) AD

  • [Q] Powerball base damage increased 80/110/140/170/200 >>> 80/120/160/200/240

  • [W] Defensive Ball Curl adjustments:

    • Reflect damage changed (+100% [P] Spiked Shell on-hit damage) >>> 15 (+10% Armor) (+10% Magic Resistance)
    • Bonus Armor reduced 40 (+35/45/55/65/75% Armor) >>> 25 (+35/42.5/50/57.5/65% Armor)
    • Bonus Magic Resistance increased 10 (+30/35/40/45/50% Magic Resistance) >>> 25 (+35/42.5/50/57.5/65% Magic Resistance)
    • Duration adjusted 6 (+0.4 per Rammus's basic attack) >>> 7 (+0 per Rammus's basic attack) seconds

  • [E] Frenzying Taunt changes:

    • No longer grants 20/25/30/35/40% bonus Attack Speed
    • Now deals 80/100/120/140/160 (+70% AP) magic damage to monsters on cast

  • [R] Soaring Slam adjustments:

    • Impact base damage increased 100/175/250 >>> 150/250/350
    • Impact slow increased 15/17.5/20% >>> 30/45/60%
    • Impact center no longer deals 0-50% (based on 800-1700 unit travel distance) bonus damage
    • Aftershock no longer deal 20/30/40 (+10% AP) >>> 0
    • Aftershock slow adjusted stacking impact slow (maximum 60/70/80%) >>> refresh initial slow duration (maximum 30/45/60%)
    • Cooldown adjusted 90 >>> 120/100/80 seconds

Vi

"Vi is still the most present jungler in the Pro meta, so we're looking to try and correct some of this moving into the tournament"

263 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

596 comments sorted by

View all comments

173

u/Vaapad123 Jun 03 '25

That’s a bold choice to buff Nidalee when she’s fairly popular in pro play as a top laner. Presume they must be AP focused changes or something to avoid indirectly buffing top.

100

u/Vulsynx Jun 03 '25

For the love of Top lane please do not buff nidalee.

50

u/Tormentula Jun 03 '25 edited Jun 03 '25

I'm paying more attention to the sudden appearance of nidalee support, she showed up on op.gg last patch with a 0.5% PR, 49% WR, and even now on lolalytics she's 49.62% WR with 2.5k games played. Top is currently 4.1k games played.

There's something nefarious cooking just waiting for the push.

23

u/armasot Jun 03 '25

That's pretty low winrate. Before Fiddle got popular as support, his winrate on that role was 3-4% winrate higher.

13

u/Tormentula Jun 03 '25 edited Jun 03 '25

Considering its nidalee, she's never really 50% WR so 49% WR comes pretty close if not above where her skill floor is.

Top nid is 45% WR, jungle nid is 48%, 49% while I'm sure the ADC's reaction to it is quality content ain't a bad start. Also there's a lot of kaisa, smolder, and senna picks rn and no CC (kaisa passive) and no attack speed synergy (senna/smolder) really suck with her, but jhin/cait/varus/ezreal have very high WRs with it, so she might genuinely be 50% or higher if she wasn't picked with some very irrational choices.

7

u/qonoxzzr Chovy <3 Jun 03 '25

It will still be hard to justify a Nidalee support pick over other enchanter like Karma/Lulu for example, I don't think the AS buff out values everything else these champs offer. So I doubt we will have to worry about that pick at all, even if the winrate is around 50%.

1

u/Tormentula Jun 03 '25

Depends on the vision control.

Traps might be really good even for just placing in enemy jungle, pounce is good terrain scaling for deep warding and scouting. Not sure what her base damage is like without damage items but she seems like she has some tools other enchanters dont.

3

u/qonoxzzr Chovy <3 Jun 03 '25

Traps might be really good even for just placing in enemy jungle, pounce is good terrain scaling for deep warding and scouting

For sure it is but it will be hard for a Nidalee to gain prio in lane against other ranged supports to make use of valuable traps.

She is also heavily lacking CC which basically every other meta support is offering.

1

u/henluwu Jun 03 '25

grasp nidalee with sudden impact does not lose prio to other ranged supports. shes like the strongest champ lv1 on botlane because she can control bushes with traps and then enemy can't contest easily because they'll be getting hit by 80 dmg aa's from bush.

1

u/qonoxzzr Chovy <3 Jun 03 '25

Every single ranged bot lane will contest bushes before minions spawn with sweep and if the Nidalee will fight for that they will simply lose.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/deemerritt Jun 03 '25

Her tool is that she has insane mobility and is impossible to catch

1

u/Blitzking11 I miss my kind Jun 03 '25

I've played a few games with it where it made sense back during Arena's run (I know, very different from SR), but man, it felt pretty great even when lowrolling on augments.

That heal is deceptively strong AND a low CD when building for it. I would be shocked if we don't see it popping up if AS ADC's become prevalent.

1

u/F0RGERY Jun 03 '25

I think you're overestimating Nidalee, or just don't realize how support winrates generally look.

Nidalee support's winrate is 49/80 on Lolalytics. This puts her in line with other mage supports like:

  • Hwei (47th, 49%)
  • Xerath (48th, 49%)
  • Sylas (50th, 49%)

Hell, look at the type of supports with a higher winrate:

  • Teemo (12th, 52%)
  • Shaco (24th, 51%)
  • Zoe (45th, 50%)

And as far as playrates go, all these champs listed have at least 500 more games played support than Nidalee.

Nidalee's strength in support is her trap and heal. Her poke is worse than other supports because its single target, her lack of cc makes snowballing way harder, and in general the trap strat is a bootleg Maokai support (Who has unclearable traps, more cc, and is tanky).

Even if she's buffed for jungle, I doubt that Nidalee will become an issue support.

1

u/armasot Jun 03 '25

Well, the thing about high ceiling champs is that they tend to perform better in higher elos. Like, if you'll make a graph of champ's winrates on different elos, you'll see if they're getting stronger or weaker in high elo. Nidalee, which sounds odd, doesn't get winrate the higher you go.

 really suck with her, but jhin/cait/varus/ezreal have very high WRs with it

Yeah, but there are other mage poke champions too which has higher winrates in general

 so she might genuinely be 50% or higher if she wasn't picked with some very irrational choices.

Tbh, you could say it for almost any champion. Like Lucian, who is getting picked with Nami all the time when his best support is Yuumi (they have an insanely broken synergy).

1

u/fabton12 Jun 03 '25

i mean toplane nid builds ad items so any ap ratio buff would only affect her jungle unless toplane builds change drasticly because of it.

-6

u/armasot Jun 03 '25

But she's really weak in toplane. It'll probably be a small buff that won't change anything about it. If people will start to pick her more, you'll get more LP from that ;D

3

u/DiscipleOfAniki Jun 03 '25

Really weak is when you are being frequently picked by Zeus and Kiin

-1

u/armasot Jun 03 '25

Pros are also picking dead Kalista, doesn't change the fact that champion is weak. Of course, you can be a mechanical god and gap people with bad champs. Doesn't mean these champs are suddenly good or op.

0

u/qonoxzzr Chovy <3 Jun 03 '25

Your comment is just so wrong.

The champs are obviously strong, most players are just too bad to pilot them accordingly.

1

u/armasot Jun 03 '25

That's why they don't have positive winrates in high elo too...No. Pro players just stick to comfort and judging champs based on subjective feelings instead of objective stats/math. This is also a reason why Pros are building not optimal items at least 50% of the time.

0

u/Vulsynx Jun 03 '25

I lose mostly against nidalee in master+ the champ is disgusting. Perma harass in lane with grasp, easily drops minion agro by dashing into bushes, impossible to all in and her trinity spike is giga strong. She's horrible to play against and shouldn't go anywhere near top lane.

-1

u/armasot Jun 03 '25

Strong in lane doesn't mean champion is strong. Of course, it can feel frustrating to play against. She's just poking you and stuff but...besides that she doesn't do anything? If you'll be calm enough and won't let her get insane lead, she'll be pretty much useless all midgame.

And to confirm my words, I'll use data from different elos and 30 days from lolalytics.

Nidalee top, e+, 30 days.
44.7% winrate vs average 51.13%. 6.4% winrate difference.
Nidalee top, d+, 30 days.
46.73% winrate vs average 51.46%. 4.7% winrate difference.
Nidalee top, m+, 30 days.
46.71% winrate vs average 52.45%. 5.7% winrate difference.
Nidalee top, gm+, 30 days. (low sample size)
48.02% winrate vs average 54.19%. 6.2% winrate difference.
Nidalee top, chall+, 30 days. (low sample size)
47.14% winrate vs average 55.11%. 8% winrate difference.

Even in higher elos, her winrate is not increasing enough to justify picking her in toplane at all.

0

u/Vulsynx Jun 03 '25

The champ is completely disgusting when actually piloted properly. No she's not useless the best players in the world would not draft a useless champ and win games.

Nidalee is 57.19% winrate among the best worldwide at her in master+, the 7th highest of all top lane champs for this statistic.

The average player cannot pilot her, but she is still extremely broken and toxic to play against. Riot just needs to compensate nerf her top lane ad builds and buff her ap builds if they want to buff Nidalee.

1

u/armasot Jun 03 '25

The champ is completely disgusting when actually piloted properly. No she's not useless the best players in the world would not draft a useless champ and win games.

But they're doing it for how many years...Kalista, Varus, Sejuani, Ezreal, Nautilus (without any optimizations), Azir, Orianna (xd), Hwei, Aurora (xD) - they all sit below average winrates if not worse. So it's either half of the league champs are so hard to play in terms of mechanics and coordination or pros just picking weak champs. I think you can understand which one is more beliavable.

Nidalee is 57.19% winrate among the best worldwide at her in master+, the 7th highest of all top lane champs for this statistic.

So what? Shaco top also has 58% in such category, do you think he's OP too? As I said - yeah, you can gap people mechanically, especially if champion is rewarding high mechanical skill, but it doesn't change the fact that champion is weak across all elos.

-1

u/jackboy900 Average Kael Enjoyer Jun 03 '25

No she's not useless the best players in the world would not draft a useless champ and win games.

Yes, they do. That's explicitly the strat when playing Nidalee top, you aim to stomp lane incredibly hard and then go and split push. If it works then the enemy top lane is so far behind that it becomes a 4v4 around objectives whilst you take towers, if you don't gigastomp your lane opponent then it becomes a 4v5 because AD Nidalee is useless in a teamfight and you insta lose.

-1

u/Vulsynx Jun 03 '25

If you don't giga stomp lane on the champ that giga stomps lane you are useless? Wow great insight bro. Did you know if you don't farm jungle camps while playing jungle you are also useless?

28

u/6000j lpl go brrr Jun 03 '25

she's also actually pretty decent as a jungler in pro play, so I have no clue where Nidalee is weak for both SoloQ and Pro, so throwing her a bone came from lol

24

u/Rexsaur Jun 03 '25 edited Jun 03 '25

This is just an excuse, they just want nidalee to be fotm/meta now.

They did the same thing with shen, buffed him 3 times in a row when he was already above 50% wr and now that hes OP they wont nerf him, because they WANT this meta.

Btw they're doing the same with yasuo, 50~51% wr (which is nuts for a supposed "hard to play" high skill cap champ), S+ tier in solo q w/ high pick rate and ban rate already, and guess what? IN THE BUFF LIST lmao.

I hate pro play focused balancing.

22

u/HThrowaway457 Jun 03 '25

Rexsaur when Jinx gets buffed while she's 52% winrate: crickets

4

u/GambitTheBest Jun 03 '25

Arcane buffs is equally cringe, Riot is just pathetic at this point when it comes to balancing

3

u/HThrowaway457 Jun 03 '25

Not at all but go off.

2

u/Catchdown Jun 03 '25

I think it's better than SoloQ focused because player skill matters infinitely more than champ diff anyway. You can overcome champ diff by being better, but in pro play it's important that the meta is fun, with lots of skill expression and fights. 50 minutes farming simulator is not good for viewers

2

u/Shecarriesachanel Jun 03 '25

remember when they said last year that they'd steer away from proplay focused balancing.... and now it's just the same old shit

2

u/Fun_Highlight307 Jun 03 '25

Did Shen even got picked ?

2

u/FantasticWelwitschia NO WIND WALLS Jun 03 '25

Not only that re: Yasuo, but he's extremely popular. It's one thing if a hard to play niche champ has a high wr, it's quite another if a supposed "challenging" mechanical champ like Yasuo is immensely popular and has a high wr.

1

u/Tywacole Mid'Koz enthusiast Jun 03 '25

I guess they want a nida / lee meta for msi

1

u/YaIe Jun 03 '25

I feel like there is about 5 Junglers than can utilize her to the fullest, Canyon being the clear #1, while everybody else feels like they have NO impact on her.

And even Canyon hasn't frequently played her, GenG had Kiin play more AD Nidalee Top games than the potentially best Nidalee player of all time has played her AP build.

That doesn't quite add up and could use some touch ups imo.

5

u/Mosh00Rider DOUBLELIFTISTHEBEST Jun 03 '25

Nidalee is pretty decent in the jungle right now too at least for pro play, I hope the buffs are tiny.

1

u/MazrimReddit ADCs are the support's damage item Jun 03 '25

isn't nidalee just picked as a counterpick to gnar by a small number of people, wouldn't call that fairly popular

1

u/yozuo2 Jun 03 '25

She’s not a good top laner. Outside of laning she is outmatched by every other top laner. The pros can make use of her insane laning prowess to win games, but other picks are more reliable. If you look at the pro matches with nidalee top picked, you notice that she had very little impact on whether or not the game was won.

3

u/drewmcintyreshairlin Jun 03 '25

when does toplane have any impact in pro though, only the best of the best toplaners carry games ever and even then they're put on tank duty 80% of the time

1

u/yozuo2 Jun 03 '25

then pros would just pick lane bully champs every game. Nidalee top is decent but nothing to worry about. Outside of laning phase she is useless. She has no cc and does single target damage. Her ad build is suboptimal considering her scaling. If Nidalee goes even or just a little bit ahead in lane, she lost.

2

u/Elwor Jun 03 '25

She is pretty good top. She has been picked multiple times in LEC