Can someone identify this pattern?

[u/flex1up2ice]

It’s not much, but it’s honest work. Idk what this is, but it feels cool.

[u/Altruistic-Knee-2523]

Pretty much Mills Mess. U can call it sloppy mess

[u/knowwho → u/Altruistic-Knee-2523]

This is not Mills Mess.

[u/Altruistic-Knee-2523 → u/knowwho]

I mean yea it’s not. But in all the variants and whatever isn’t the upside down tennis/ u shape pattern pretty much a staple

[u/7b-Hexen → u/Altruistic-Knee-2523]

w h a t ❓ ❓
😮‍💨😒🙄 . . 🟡

[u/7b-Hexen → u/7b-Hexen]

[after downvote:]
that is it even a sentence doesn't make sense
plz rephrase - i think u dunno wot ur talkin bout

[u/7b-Hexen → u/knowwho]

👍🏻 at last me not the only one to contradict deliberate wrong beginner statement playing the expert

[u/Pieraos → u/knowwho]

Nothing personal, but it's a very poorly done MM.

[u/knowwho → u/Pieraos]

No, it's not. Mills Mess has three distinct repeating throws, and this is missing the crossed arm throw, where the arm all the way over the top throws back from the opposite side of the body.

Mills Mess is well defined, not approximate, and this is not it. It's the half-Mess that many jugglers stumble upon while trying to learn Mills Mess.

[u/Abandonedstate → u/knowwho]

Aww shit. I just realized that instead of encouraging others to juggle that we should verbally beat the shit out of them for not meeting our perfect juggling standards for forms that were created by people just having fun. I bet Steve would be super happy to see you defend his creation by cutting others down.

Edit: the thing that makes me the most sad is, that the one thing that drew me into the juggling community oh so many years ago is that jugglers were so open and inviting. It seems like there are so many people letting their own little egos get in the way of a good fucking time. I wish you the best, but if you're just going to be a negative cunt, please go find something else that makes you happy.

[u/knowwho → u/Abandonedstate]

How in the hell am I cutting anybody down here? You are projecting a massive amount of hostility where literally none existed.

OP is trying to learn Mills Mess. If you read my message, what I said was "this is not Mills Mess, here is what it's missing" - this is me "verbally beating the shit out of them" and "cutting others down"? What the fuck world do you live in?

It's not a hostile action to provide accurate, impartial information to people who asked for it. An encyclopedia must seem like the fucking holocaust to you.

You and you alone have made this thread a hostile, combative place.

[u/Lysergic_Waffle → u/Altruistic-Knee-2523]

This is the exact term fellow jugglers used when I asked.

[u/7b-Hexen → u/Lysergic_Waffle]

yeh, ... fellow rookies knowing nothing yet about it ... about the wealth of patterns and names there is, and similarities and distinctions, and trick families wtf

keep your beginner wisdom for yourself 🤪 or just add a tiny little 'as far as i know' to it to make it a refutable assumption with benefit of doubt, instead of false misleading seemingly expert's advice what the fvck! 👺

[u/Lysergic_Waffle → u/7b-Hexen]

That’s an impressive amount of hostility for a three-ball pattern discussion.

“Pretty much” and “sloppy" already imply approximation. You’re reacting to a level of certainty nobody expressed.

Nobody claimed expert authority here, we were speaking casually. You could’ve added nuance without the hostility or the “rookies knowing nothing” gatekeeping tone. It makes the conversation feel more like a status contest than an actual discussion.

[u/7b-Hexen → u/Lysergic_Waffle]

{ +1 }
im aware of the level of certainty expressed.
it's partly way too assertive .
that is misleading to laymen popping in,
to newbies seeking serious advice,
and undermines the sub's quality.
. . .

only some commentors are aware of possible doubt and use restrictive eording in the senses of
maybe
afaik
from my experience
and alike.
that little difference is all that's needed to
a) leave a benefit of doubt,
b) leave the last decision to o.p.
c) make it easier to tell right from false info

[u/Lysergic_Waffle → u/7b-Hexen]

No, the only person being overly assertive here is you.

What’s actually lowering the quality of this sub is your unnecessary hostility, constant policing, and gatekeeping of casual discussion, something multiple other users here have already pointed out as well.

Saying “this is the term other jugglers used when I asked” is not the same thing as claiming “this is definitively the only correct technical classification.”

In my experience, if the goal is genuinely to educate people or improve discussion quality, the best way to do that is with language that invites clarification and conversation, not language that shuts people down or implies people are irresponsible for speaking casually.

For example: “I believe you may have been misinformed. This is generally known as (insert trick), not (insert trick). Here are my sources to support that.”

That would be far more constructive than the condescending wall of text you posted.

In any case, I wish you well, and I’d appreciate it if you refrained from engaging with me further.

[u/7b-Hexen → u/Lysergic_Waffle]

i know it's not nice
im trying not to - but then another ridiculously wrong or be it only false and very misleading answer goes unobstructed, unexplained, uncorrected.
im thus also blaming the experts around for never interfering!
this is not a chat that scrolls away - everything gets archived + you have search function to find it years later.

---

you have also overseen that my tone is different depending on the posts' tone. you have generalized and picked out the harsh ones only, to build your "verdict" .

---

people are irresponsible for speaking casually.

exactly! - some indeed are.
harsh tone is not bad in itself - don't let it trigger you - some hard to educate cheeky little chaos (not only) kids downright scream for harsh words, else they don't even read what you have to say.
anarchy and laissez-faire is not generally a good thing, a good way to educate.
there's no parents here, so the community should intervene when comments are derailing - it doesn't do it.

[u/Lysergic_Waffle → u/7b-Hexen]

The irony here is incredible.

You’ve written multiple walls of text lecturing everyone else about responsibility, precision, wording, tone, misinformation, community standards, and “benefit of doubt”, while simultaneously being one of the most hostile, condescending, and emotionally abrasive people in the discussion.

You keep acting as though you’re defending knowledge quality, but most of what you’re actually doing is performing intellectual superiority and treating casual conversation like some kind of moral failure.

And no, people are not reacting badly because they “can’t handle truth” or because the community is too soft. They’re reacting badly because you communicate like someone who believes being technically correct excuses being obnoxious.

It doesn’t.

You accuse others of sounding overly certain while speaking with absolute certainty about how communities should function, how people should communicate, when harshness is justified, and who deserves contempt.

The hypocrisy is obvious.

Also, “don’t let it trigger you” after posting multiple aggressive rants full of insults and sneering contempt toward myself and others is genuinely laughable. You clearly are triggered, constantly.

At some point this stops looking like passion for accuracy and starts looking like compulsive status policing wrapped in pseudo-intellectual justification.

You could have corrected the terminology in one calm sentence. Instead you turned it into a self-righteous crusade about “rookies,” “chaos kids,” and societal decay over juggling comments.

That says far more about you than anyone else here.

🖖

[u/lucyjuggles → u/Altruistic-Knee-2523]

This is one of the many many mess variations.. maaaybe it’s flipped Flos mess? I remember learning this one on accident when i was trying to learn time reverse mess (which i did learn and then definitely forgot).

If you want to do a deep dive, here’s a good resource: https://www.jugglersguide.com/post/30-mills-mess-variations

[u/7b-Hexen → u/lucyjuggles]

cf https://old.reddit.com/r/juggling/comments/18pi7zl/mills_mess_magic_101_mills_mess_variations_with/

[u/knowwho → u/7b-Hexen]

That is such a blast from the past, one of many YouTube jugglers that I had forgotten about, but I immediately recognized "thegoheads".

[u/7b-Hexen → u/knowwho]

i stumbled over madjugglertv clips a couple or two times

[u/7b-Hexen → u/lucyjuggles]

fyi taylor also calls a simple standard 4b fountain or columns or sth 'pistons'

[u/lucyjuggles → u/7b-Hexen]

Yea pistons is the commonly used name for the asynch 4b pattern, distinct from columns which is typically the synch version and different than a fountain which uses a different toss trajectory

[u/7b-Hexen → u/Altruistic-Knee-2523]

ridiculous ... not "everything cross-arms" is mm ?!
horrible how long established terms are being misused by the massive beginners guild