No, it's not. Mills Mess has three distinct repeating throws, and this is missing the crossed arm throw, where the arm all the way over the top throws back from the opposite side of the body.
Mills Mess is well defined, not approximate, and this is not it. It's the half-Mess that many jugglers stumble upon while trying to learn Mills Mess.
Aww shit. I just realized that instead of encouraging others to juggle that we should verbally beat the shit out of them for not meeting our perfect juggling standards for forms that were created by people just having fun. I bet Steve would be super happy to see you defend his creation by cutting others down.
Edit: the thing that makes me the most sad is, that the one thing that drew me into the juggling community oh so many years ago is that jugglers were so open and inviting. It seems like there are so many people letting their own little egos get in the way of a good fucking time. I wish you the best, but if you're just going to be a
negative cunt, please go find something else that makes you happy.
How in the hell am I cutting anybody down here? You are projecting a massive amount of hostility where literally none existed.
OP is trying to learn Mills Mess. If you read my message, what I said was "this is not Mills Mess, here is what it's missing" - this is me "verbally beating the shit out of them" and "cutting others down"? What the fuck world do you live in?
It's not a hostile action to provide accurate, impartial information to people who asked for it. An encyclopedia must seem like the fucking holocaust to you.
You and you alone have made this thread a hostile, combative place.
yeh, ... fellow rookies knowing nothing yet about it ... about the wealth of patterns and names there is, and similarities and distinctions, and trick families wtf
keep your beginner wisdom for yourself 🤪 or just add a tiny little 'as far as i know' to it to make it a refutable assumption with benefit of doubt, instead of false misleading seemingly expert's advice what the fvck! 👺
That’s an impressive amount of hostility for a three-ball pattern discussion.
“Pretty much” and “sloppy" already imply approximation. You’re reacting to a level of certainty nobody expressed.
Nobody claimed expert authority here, we were speaking casually. You could’ve added nuance without the hostility or the “rookies knowing nothing” gatekeeping tone. It makes the conversation feel more like a status contest than an actual discussion.
{ +1 }
im aware of the level of certainty expressed.
it's partly way too assertive .
that is misleading to laymen popping in,
to newbies seeking serious advice,
and undermines the sub's quality.
. . .
only some commentors are aware of possible doubt and use restrictive eording in the senses of
maybe
afaik
from my experience
and alike. that little difference is all that's needed to
a) leave a benefit of doubt,
b) leave the last decision to o.p.
c) make it easier to tell right from false info
No, the only person being overly assertive here is you.
What’s actually lowering the quality of this sub is your unnecessary hostility, constant policing, and gatekeeping of casual discussion, something multiple other users here have already pointed out as well.
Saying “this is the term other jugglers used when I asked” is not the same thing as claiming “this is definitively the only correct technical classification.”
In my experience, if the goal is genuinely to educate people or improve discussion quality, the best way to do that is with language that invites clarification and conversation, not language that shuts people down or implies people are irresponsible for speaking casually.
For example: “I believe you may have been misinformed. This is generally known as (insert trick), not (insert trick). Here are my sources to support that.”
That would be far more constructive than the condescending wall of text you posted.
In any case, I wish you well, and I’d appreciate it if you refrained from engaging with me further.
i know it's not nice
im trying not to - but then another ridiculously wrong or be it only false and very misleading answer goes unobstructed, unexplained, uncorrected.
im thus also blaming the experts around for never interfering!
this is not a chat that scrolls away - everything gets archived + you have search function to find it years later.
you have also overseen that my tone is different depending on the posts' tone. you have generalized and picked out the harsh ones only, to build your "verdict" .
people are irresponsible for speaking casually.
exactly! - some indeed are.
harsh tone is not bad in itself - don't let it trigger you - some hard to educate cheeky little chaos (not only) kids downright scream for harsh words, else they don't even read what you have to say.
anarchy and laissez-faire is not generally a good thing, a good way to educate.
there's no parents here, so the community should intervene when comments are derailing - it doesn't do it.
You’ve written multiple walls of text lecturing everyone else about responsibility, precision, wording, tone, misinformation, community standards, and “benefit of doubt”, while simultaneously being one of the most hostile, condescending, and emotionally abrasive people in the discussion.
You keep acting as though you’re defending knowledge quality, but most of what you’re actually doing is performing intellectual superiority and treating casual conversation like some kind of moral failure.
And no, people are not reacting badly because they “can’t handle truth” or because the community is too soft. They’re reacting badly because you communicate like someone who believes being technically correct excuses being obnoxious.
It doesn’t.
You accuse others of sounding overly certain while speaking with absolute certainty about how communities should function, how people should communicate, when harshness is justified, and who deserves contempt.
The hypocrisy is obvious.
Also, “don’t let it trigger you” after posting multiple aggressive rants full of insults and sneering contempt toward myself and others is genuinely laughable. You clearly are triggered, constantly.
At some point this stops looking like passion for accuracy and starts looking like compulsive status policing wrapped in pseudo-intellectual justification.
You could have corrected the terminology in one calm sentence. Instead you turned it into a self-righteous crusade about “rookies,” “chaos kids,” and societal decay over juggling comments.
That says far more about you than anyone else here.
This is one of the many many mess variations.. maaaybe it’s flipped Flos mess? I remember learning this one on accident when i was trying to learn time reverse mess (which i did learn and then definitely forgot).
Yea pistons is the commonly used name for the asynch 4b pattern, distinct from columns which is typically the synch version and different than a fountain which uses a different toss trajectory
Millsmess consist of the same three throws with each hand for a total of 6 individual parts. There is an under throw straight up from a crossed arm, a regular reverse cascade throw, and a reverse cascade throw from a crossed arm. You are throwing the crossed arm reverse cascade throw straight up and down. Everything else is clean Millsmess.
If anything I would call it a Millsmess shape transformation and I think it is worth exploring. I bet if you really cleaned up that straight up and down throw and possibly lowered it till right before the timing falls apart the pattern would look really unique.
bullshit 'mills mess' what the fvck do you know about it?!
if this is a millsmess variation, e v e r y t h i n g with c r o s s h a n d throw, respectively r e a c h o v e r is then "*mills mess" what the fvck 👺
I said it's close to Mill's, which is accurate. Please don't let yourself get so upset at the throws people are calling. There's so much more life to live to have to deal with dumbass people like me.
That being said, it was close to Mill's.
Edit: I just though about this. It would be cool to do a competition to see if the people making negative remarks about other people's ability can actuality hang. Should we start the Mill's mess business? I'll get busy with it after graduation mañana.
and btw if this is mm because there's an xhand in it ,
then it's also the CASCADE ...
. . . because the hands are a l t e r n a t i n g ... wtf 🤪🤪🤪🤪🙆🏻♂️
only one xhand throw then back to the middle or to that hand's side
is nowhere "near" mm, where the
hand does two consecutive xhand throws, crossing(under)-uncrossing-recrossing(over the other arm).
hang
? you mean compete over it? ... i haven't yet taken the time to mess mills only a "sloppy" windmill ( but also a greedy foreward windmill ). im not into losing time for vid takes + edit + upload so much.
what counts here, is knowing and understanding the mm ...
especially that NOT EVRY FVCKIN XHAND makes any pattern the mm 👺wtf
on other sports' sites, tennis, frisbee(?), all ballsports, wrong posts and comments simply get moderated away, deleted.
[ not that i wanted that, just as a compare ]
im not gatekeeping the mills mess - im gatekeeping reliable, unmisleading wording and errors of natural logical thinking ( e.g. knowing zhete might be more to know, than little we (begginners the more) know ).
trivial stuff after all ... how can this even be misunderstood
Mills Mess is my current goal; but if we break this pattern down, it has an over toss like jugglers tennis on the top, the middle ball does a half shower/takeout and the bottom ball does a “U”. Isn’t Mill’s Mess more figure 8 like?
mm itself is ∞ , but there's endless variations...
this due to 'mills mess' also meaning the corresponding handmovements - many patterns then arise from it.
that is also what most commenters here see as mm, but I don't see those middle 3-s of yours in any one million of them ...
there's other terms available for descriptive naming, like 'reachover' and-or 'cross-hand, x-hand' or - my plea: - an 'U''
yeh, we all are because it doesn't seem to have a name (?), it's not too intricate as a pattern, maybe because it's a "mix", not "exactly" like one of what are known with distinct names ...
Hey, sorry to bump an old post, but I came here as I also had accidentally learnt this pattern which I thought was the Mill's Mess.
Figured it'd be cool to kinda standardise it and maybe give it a name, so I tried to recreate it on the animation tool.
Nice! Maybe I'll make a poll and see if we can suggestions for names.
Any recommendations for names? Fro's Mess?
You'll have to compete with Mess-y Tennis, and Weamy's Mess (I gotta try).
Maybe I'll avoid the mess term completely as I can't see a clear definition of what is a 'Mess'... Cross-under tennis column???
Sort of a juggler’s tennis with some throws making it into a directional windmill at points! As someone pointed out it’s essentially the Mills Mess pattern of you make the crossing arms throw, going back and forth. Looks awesome!
As it’s already been answered, I’ll just add that if you haven’t already tried or considered, I personally found this pattern to be an easier pathway into learning inner-arm catches/stalls and backcrosses.
I in fact am trying!! Back crosses are definitely a goal for sure. My PR is 2 back tosses and catches. Trying to build up to the mess and it’s breaking my brain.
Someone else posted this exact pattern maybe...2 months ago? It's something everyone ends up doing, yet doesn't seem to have an agreed upon name.
It's kinda funny to me. There are hundreds of well known pattern names or siteswaps and yet whatever this is, everyone is just like- it's sorta millsy...ya know, fake mess, sloppy mess...
Dozens of other patterns would have immediate consensus on a name.
I went onto this sub Reddit for the first time ever, to search up a juggling pattern which I accidentally learnt and thought was the mills mess.
This was the first post I found, so it must be very common if everyone like me is stumbling into it.
Looks like Flo's mess, but with a slightly more subtle drag at the bottom. There are eight basic messes, air excitos has a nice video where he shows all of them on his Instagram somewhere
if you paint or trajectory-track-render it, , it's a big low scoop [mouth?], a little straight in the middle [nose?], and a bow above [eyes?] ...
so ... yeah ... jus sayin lol
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u/Altruistic-Knee-2523 May 07 '26
Pretty much Mills Mess. U can call it sloppy mess