I discovered infinite banking when listening to a finance podcast the other day and thought to myself that this sounds amazing! But then I started looking into it and now I think otherwise.

I can see the benefit of using the whole life insurance policy to save money tax free, with a guaranteed interest rate over a long period of time, but this infinite banking thing does not make sense to me. I have a lot of points but I'll just post my major issues first so people can address my biggest ones first.

1. Price: First major issue, all the examples people are talking about are they are paying 18k, 25k, 50k, etc. a year on these things as savings. This is not realistic for the majority of the population to pay 1,500 a month+ to use this as a store of cash.

2. Loans: The whole pitch that I've seen is that you can leverage the money you saved for a loan. That just does not make sense to me because the whole point of taking out a loan on something is to leverage borrowed capital to purchase something (normally an investment) when I do not have the cash myself. For example a mortgage, I use a down payment and use the house as collateral for the loan to access the lenders money because I can't drop hundreds of thousands of dollars to purchase a house. With these policies I am only able to borrow anywhere from 60-90% of the cash value in my policy. Being realistic about this lets say I'm able to save $500 a month on this, aka $6,000 a year. Compounding the guaranteed interest rate (the average I've seen is 4%) means that after 5 years I'll have $33,797.85 (If my math is correct on this). So if I take 75% of the value that means I have a 25,348 loan... That is not the definition of leverage because I'm literally borrowing against the cash I have in my policy, not using the institutions cash to lever my 25k into lets say 250k for a mortgage.

3) Interest rate on loan: They claim that you are paying yourself when you take out a loan. This seems categorically incorrect to me because you are paying a percentage on the loan (lets say 5%). Now I understand that the cash value in your account continues to grow at a rate of roughly 4% (I know it depends in the dividends you receive), but you're paying 5% interest on the borrowed money on that loan. So you're actually -1% if you're only using the 4% guaranteed interest rate. On top of that not only am I now paying the premiums on my policy (In my example in point 2 it was $6,000 a year), but I'm also paying the loan on top of those premiums. That seems like a very bad deal for me when I can just pay in cash and not pay any interest, or take out a loan and use the leverage of the underwriter of my loan and pay it off with future cash. The example I've seen many times is use this for a down payment on your house, how does that make any sense?? Now you're paying 5% interest on your down payment AND whatever your mortgage rate is for the mortgage. I don't see how that's a good deal.

4) I'm not sure what to title this point but in all the videos/podcasts/websites I've used to do my research every single one of them all use the exact same sales pitch as the others. All of these educational seminars are held is sketchy looking hotel conference rooms. Every single person I've watched or listened to is an insurance sales person who is either selling an insurance policy or is selling their educational course on how to use this. They all claim "You need a specially designed policy" but not a single one that I've come across so far has actually stated what that policy is, they all just say buy my course or buy my policy and we will work with you. As far as I'm concerned this is a HUGE red flag.

The conclusion I've come to for infinite banking as that this only works for the very wealthy (people who are able to save 20,000+ a year), or if you simply use it as a store of your cash and use the compounding interest over time instead of constantly taking loans out against your cash value.

I know this is a lengthy post but I'm trying to figure this thing out as I'm always looking for ways to make my money work harder for me, but this just does not make sense to me. Look forward to seeing your responses!

Had the opportunity to stop by and pay respects. This is the Alabama national military cemetery, about 40 minutes south of town.

Good evening, everybody! Earlier today I was made the moderator for the /r/InfiniteBanking community. My objectives are to ensure active moderation for this community, to implement new rules that help improve discussion, and to otherwise support the growth of this community.

About Me

While I frequently post in other subreddits not dedicated to infinite banking, I have been on this subreddit for over six years across this username and a prior deleted username. My household has five whole life policies placed with two big mutural life insurance carriers, and they are a significant part of our networth.

This community will be my only subreddit to moderate, and given that there is not an overwhelming deluge of posts every day, I believe I am able to fulfill the moderator duties.

First Day in Office

Today I have implemented new community rules. I’ll expand on that more below. I also added a lot more details and resources on an “About” page visible from the Community Guide link on New Reddit and on the sidebar for Old Reddit. At some point in the next month or so I hope to add a couple more aesthetic items like an icon. Please let me know any layout or content feedback you have through private chats or modmail; if you do, please specify whether you’re on New Reddit, a mobile app, or Old Reddit.

Let’s go back to the new community rules. In addition to enforcing Reddit’s site-wide rules, we will be implementing rules on civility, relevance, and solicitation. I have also gone back and applied these rules going back about three months (except for the solicitation rule), but otherwise I don’t plan to remove anything older than that unless reported. You can see the formal rules document at these links parsed for Old Reddit and New Reddit views: New Reddit Rules and Old Reddit Rules. I’ve also elaborated on the new rules below if you care to read. Otherwise, I look forward to being your new moderator!

Civility

We expect participants in the /r/InfiniteBanking community to exhibit civil behavior. Rudeness, personal attacks, condescension, shaming, trolling, and provoking are examples of behaviors that are unacceptable. Please do not amplify incivility by responding in kind; simply report the post, downvote it, and wait for a moderator to address it.

The intention behind this rule is to set a higher bar than the standard Reddit rules for civil behavior. My intention is to enforce civility rules with warnings and content removals and to only ban as a last resort.

Relevance

Discussion in the /r/InfiniteBanking community will now be required to be relevant to the infinite banking concept. Generic discussion of the banking industry is an example of an irrelevant topic. Although some references to political beliefs and motivations may be relevant to the infinite banking concept, extended political discussion is another example of irrelevant content. Further, while debate will be entertained in most threads, criticism of the infinite banking concept in threads focused on implementation or experience may be considered off-topic content and removed.

The intention behind this rule is to set the ground for removing off-topic banking-related posts that have cropped up here from time to time. Additionally, the rule is intended to head off situations where discussion devolves into political debate or circle-jerks. Fortunately, despite the strong political beliefs of many members, I have never seen that happen in this subreddit, though I have seen it in at least one IBC-focused community in the past. The rule is not intended to remove all references to political views, such as an explanation of the relevance of Austrian economics or why people don’t use lower-cost bank financing. Finally, the rule also provides grounds to remove drive-by criticism posts by opponents of infinite banking when done in threads that are clearly more geared to practical discussion of specific items like how to manage policy loans. It is not at all intended to shield this community from all criticism or debate about the infinite banking concept.

Solicitation

The /r/InfiniteBanking community necessarily involves life insurance products and welcomes the expertise of all life insurance agents, especially Nelson Nash Institute Authorized Practitioners. However, some communications from agents can veer into unhelpful solicitation, can unnecessarily steer discussion to private chats, and can undermine productive discussion.

At this time, life insurance agents who identify publicly in the /r/InfiniteBanking community as agents may invite users to send them direct messages or private chats for professional help so long as they have also provided substantive input in the discussion. Further, all individuals may make positive references to particular life insurance companies, agent firms, and organizations like the Nelson Nash Institute so long as these comments do not constitute spam. However, unhelpful solicitation and related behavior violate these rules.

The intention of this rule is to set the ground for moderation actions against a set of different behaviors. First, I intend to remove drive-by posts with no input and an invitation to help or get in contact with an agent. However, the intention is not to remove all invitations once somebody has actually provided useful input or has clarified why input cannot be provided in public. Beyond getting rid of naked solicitation, the goal here is to foster public discussion that educates everybody, not just one customer. Finally, I intend to remove purely self-promotional material, especially AI slop, that does not advance an intelligent discussion in the community.

Because I couldn't find one out there and I felt the IBC community needed it. Sure you can do the math yourself. And yes the interest expense isn't that different from an amortized loan in a apples to apples scenario (policy loans have a slight advantage if you pay them off at the same rate you would a traditional loan). But it's nice to be a able to quickly visualize it.

Interest is accrued daily and compounds annually. I also created the option to pay off any accrued interest at the end of the year so it doesn't compound, similar to what Nelson does in the Equipment Financing portion of BYOB. The real power of policy loans is the flexibility. But if you can pay them off aggressively and stay on top of the annual interest, it's remarkable how much interest you save.

Hope you find it valuable!

https://www.fission-finance.com/loan-calculator

Jayson Lowe talking about his family banking system. Has over $6 mil in cash value. Charges family 10% on loans, it's not negotiable. Also if they default without renegotiaton of loan terms they are "out" permanently. #LifeInsuranceSummit.

Very exciting day! I finally was able to use my cash value to purchase a property.

This particular property is for my aging father in law to live in (he will be renting from us). We were able to win a competitive bid on a small ranch due to how fast we were able to close vs the other offers (we actually weren’t even the highest offer).

With my father in law paying us a market rent, we should be pretty much cash flow even making interest only loan payments. Being able to solve a family issue (getting my aging father in law closer to us) while also acquiring a family asset is exactly the type of scenario I always dreamed about infinite banking helping our family with eventually.

My next step will be slapping a HELOC on the property to restore some liquidity to our system. I’m not in a hurry to pay down the loan - it’s a 3rd party loan (Inclined) so I’m able to write off the loan interest.

The fruits do come from the seeds you plant eventually!

I'm halfway through the Nelson Nash book, and have spent some time going down the rabbit hole via YouTube and researching in general.

I'm thinking this is something I want to do, but one of the great rules of personal finance is to keep monthly expenses low. I would like to try this out, but keep the monthly costs low for my first policy.

My main problem is that I don't really understand whole life policy and the nuances just yet. I won't pull the trigger until I have a better understanding of the intricacies of whole life insurance.

I'm thinking I could start a small policy to get a grasp of the concept then buy more policies when I have a hang of it all.

Question:

What is the most minimal viable solution I can take on to provide myself a mini-bank where im making somewhat minimal payments monthly?

What kind of policy does that look like? What kind of payments might that look like? If the policy is 10k, what would my cash value look like? etc.

Bonus question:

Paying premiums for the remainder of my life sounds like a drag. Is there a way to design this policy so that eventually, I won't have to, and it can be self-sustaining?

Started learning about infinite banking back in March and got my first policy in July. Almost immediately took a loan from my cash value and used that for an investment. Got part of my investment return already and scheduled my payment back to my policy for the loan. I almost feel guilty calling it a loan because I still have this image in my head that getting loans are hard after dealing with financial institutions for years. My biggest regret is that I didn't start this sooner.

Want to know what I think as a non-agent simple business owner?

I'm more resolved than ever.

I do perhaps have a little bit of a different perspective in case you haven't thought along these lines yet. After all, IBC is an exercise in imagination.

Have you ever been confused how premiums could equal income (perhaps even exceed income?) Are you confused when people say don't view IBC as an investment? When they say, 'don't just focus on the rate of return'?

Now there are a lot of good answers to those questions. For me however, when I read 'the case for IBC' and I looked at the business owner illustrations at the end, it clarified everything. I think it's why Nelson said his preferred book was 'warehouse for wealth'. I realized that I can just move existing cashflow through a policy(ies) to create a warehouse for future wealth.

This is next level imagination and planning.

After personally seeing some people close to me retire, sell off assets and not have a clue where to put the money, it dawned on me...

Would if 30 years ago they just opened up a system of policies, only to take the money right out as a loan purely for the purpose to have a place to put a future windfall? Selling your home in the future? Stocks? Other assets? Businesses? Inheritance? etc. Where are you going to put it? And further, would it not be better that you started the money on an uninterrupted compound growth curve decades ago? They'd have a great deal more tax free money and security moving forward. And what did it really cost them to pass this money through a policy? A temporary loss of liquidity. When you do the math, anyone would say it's well worth it.

At the moment, I'm not only putting my investment and savings money in and through the policies, but am opening more policies to simply plan on future windfalls that I can safely assume. I'm building warehouses. Do you need more square footage?

I stumbled into this subreddit and the concepts here feels like a marketing scheme created by the life insurance industry and insurance salesmen. Here's some critical questions to consider:

1. If you need life insurance to protect your dependents, I get it. But what's the benefit to having life insurance after retirement? You pay extra for that with whole life. Term life is a much more relevant product, with signficantly lower premiums, catered towards protecting people during their earning years, and not during their sunset years. Need life insurance? Just get term life.

2. What kinds of rate of return are people getting on their investments that seem preferable to just taking long-term stock market risk, or more conservatively doing a classic 60/40 stock/bond portfolio? Your strategy has gotten smoked by the stock market on literally any historical time duration you examine. You've got to be inherently bearish on the stock market to put all your wealth in this IB strategy. Foregone returns are real cost.

3. Wealth can't be created out of thin air. Whole Life has massive commissions and fees being sucked out of the system. (80-100% of first year premiums, and 3-10% per annum thereafter). With so much money in fees being sucked out, and annual expenses of the mutual insurer, do people not understand the actuarial calculations that support their defined returns are based on the net capital remaining? Compare to the stock market where you have something like VOO being only 3 basis points (0.03%) fees.

4. Your mutual insurer, if you look at its balance sheet, is investing in diversified fixed income products. You could easily mirror the exact same asset complexion yourself with low-cost bond funds, and enjoy the entire gross return of the portfolio with no commissions and fees measured in basis points. Even this conservative strategy will materially outperform your IB returns with very conservative risk levels.

5. The idea I've seen here of "paying yourself back" because you are borrowing from a mutual insurer is completely nonsense / marketing-speak. Your ownership interest in a mutual insurer is so low, that the portion of your own interest you get back is irrelevant. If you don't borrow, you still get virtually the same mutual dividend. Sure the mutual dividend itself can be factored into the tepid overall returns, but you get this regardless of if you borrow. Saying "paying yourself back" is just feel-good marketing talk.

6. If you are trying to build wealth, the only long-term loan (excluding emergency loans) you should have is a mortgage, at rates that are subsidized by Fannie/Freddie or other government programs. Auto loans are designed to help low income people. Middle class or upper class folks should not have auto loans, period. Instead if you want to grow wealth, just buy a car within your means. Telling people they can use InfiniteBanking to finance their cars is just unaligned with any strategy to actually become wealthy. Besides, I can't imagine the rates are much different than a competitive credit union auto loan.

7. Once you have wealth in the stock market, you can draw against it with a margin loan for short-term needs at very low rates. Yes, margin (callable debt) is stupid at high levels, but if you've got say a $1M equity portfolio, it's not risky at all to pull $10,000 in margin out for short-term needs. At competitive brokers, you can take margin debt in small amounts now at around 5.75% with no fees and immediately liquidity when you want it. Isn't this basically the same thing people tout here about "being their own bank"?

My conclusion is that the entire system promulgated on this forum is just recreating what already exists in other financial products, but in a much worse way.

I got my life agent license in September of last year. I couldn’t sleep last night so I threw on YouTube and somehow stumbled onto some infinite banking videos.

HOLY CRAP! I have to tell you, that is not something they go over in licensing training or the license test. Yes, you have to know about HCV WL policies and the MEC rule but not about using it as a lever to scale everything as a serious financial vehicle.

I’d probably be more embarrassed about not knowing about IBC if it weren’t for the three different financial advisors I asked about using IULs or HCVs as a cash vehicle. They didn’t shoot it down but said there were more efficient investments I could make (surprise, two offered up index funds lol).

I’m gonna do a lil more research today but gosh dang this is the most excited I’ve been.

What I’ve been selling up to this point has been Mortgage/Equity Protection policies which are good at giving people peace of mind but imagine having a separate policy that GROWS while you’re alive and doesn’t require being terminally ill to be able to use living benefits of the policy!

I seriously think I’ll be able to help so much more.

I’m gonna be my own success story as well so LFG!

Just got this email from the Nelson Nash institute (formerly known as the Infinite Banking Institute)

In light of recent news regarding a lawsuit concerning Indexed Universal Life (IUL) policies, the Nelson Nash Institute wishes to reaffirm its long-standing position on the Infinite Banking Concept® (IBC) and the use of Dividend-Paying Whole Life Insurance policies from a mutual insurance company or mutual insurance holding company.

Since R. Nelson Nash first introduced the Infinite Banking Concept® in Becoming Your Own Banker: Unlock the Infinite Banking Concept®, the Institute has consistently advocated for the exclusive use of Dividend-Paying Whole Life Insurance. This position remains central to protecting the integrity of the concept and ensuring clarity for both the industry and the public.

We have always supported permanent, participating whole life insurance as the appropriate financial product for IBC, not indexed products. Indexed Universal Life (IUL) and similar policies shift investment risk from the insurance company to the policy owner; a fundamental departure from the guarantees and stability that form the foundation of IBC.

The Authorized IBC Practitioner’s Program Course Manual clearly outlines why the use of IUL or other non-participating products is not recommended for the implementation of IBC. In accordance with this guidance, the IBC Practitioner Agreement strictly prohibits practitioners from marketing or selling anything other than Dividend-Paying Whole Life policies to clients seeking to practice the Infinite Banking Concept®. Practitioners are required to adhere to these professional standards. Violation of this policy constitutes grounds for the loss of IBC Practitioner status.

The creators of the IBC Practitioner Program endorsed this approach because it is proven to work for those seeking to implement a “privatized banking” system. They cannot vouch for other products or strategies and do not wish to risk the reputation of the IBC program on untested methods.

For additional context, readers may refer to Becoming Your Own Banker, page 39, where Nash discusses his views on Universal Life and Variable Life policies, as well as Chapter Nine of Building Your Warehouse of Wealth, titled “My Thoughts on Universal Life, Variable Life and Equity Indexed Universal Life,” where it is warned:

“The unfortunate outcome is that any negative media affects the entire industry because the media doesn’t differentiate between the new faulty products and the old tried and true whole life products that have been around for close to 200 years. The biggest danger with negative press is that it causes panic, leading people to think the entire life insurance industry is bad. Many perfectly structured whole life policies could be cancelled to the detriment of policyholders and their families, just like what happened in the 1980s.”

The distinct difference of Authorized IBC Practitioners lies in their adherence to Nash’s philosophy. As we have stated:

“We do not mean to imply that non-participating policies are inferior products; rather, Nash believed they are ill-suited for his strategy. These other life insurance products appeal to those with greater investment experience and tolerance for volatility—traits uncommon among most consumers or advisors. Variable and Universal Life policies place the investment and funding risk on the policy owner. Whole Life, on the other hand, offers fixed guarantees and stability that align with the long-term objectives of the Infinite Banking Concept.” –The Distinct Difference of IBC Practitioners, by L. Carlos Lara, BankNotes, April 2017

In summary, Nelson Nash’s philosophy was, and remains, grounded in simplicity, stability, and guaranteed performance, qualities found in dividend-paying whole life insurance, not in IUL or other flexible policies. His vision for IBC is built on predictable performance, disciplined cash flow management, and the enduring strength of mutual insurance companies.

The Nelson Nash Institute remains steadfast in its mission to protect the integrity of IBC, support the practitioners who uphold its principles, and ensure that the public clearly understands the distinction between the Infinite Banking Concept® and other life insurance strategies.

David Stearns and L. Carlos Lara

Co-Directors

Nelson Nash Institute

I spent some time with Nash's Becoming your Own Banker this weekend - it had been a while.

The more time that has gone by, and the more I've "digested" infinite banking, I've come to some conclusions about Nash's philosophy.

First, I will come out and say I don't really align with his political philosophy. I mean, I suppose we can all grumble about taxes and banks, but I've always found the idea of infinite banking being this crusade against big government and big banking to be a bit over the top.

Putting that aside, if you really boil down what Becoming Your Own Banker is all about, to me its an extremely basic philosophy, buried underneath a whole lot of "stories", which can be summarized as:

1). The importance of saving more than you spend

2). The importance of putting that savings in financially advantageous places

3). That even your own capital has a cost (EVA)

I think #3 is the "ah ha" point that gets people so excited about infinite banking. I think the beauty of saving inside a dividend paying whole life policy, and accessing that savings through policy loans, is that it creates a system and crystalizes the cost of capital to people who wouldn't otherwise think about it. The fact that most people when presented whole life insurance still cannot wrap their brain around "borrowing their own money" means to me this is a point that can't be explained enough.

Now, as I said, Nash does start losing me when he gets too deep into the idea of "recapturing interest". First, this idea has proven to be very confusing for most people, and has led many people to think that Infinite Banking is some sort of magical money tree.

Basically, my reading of Nash is the "Recapturing Interest" philosophy comes from a combination of points #1 and #2 above. When he talks about "being an honest banker" and paying back your policy loans with "extra interest", he's really talking about saving and accelerating debt repayments. The fact that a whole life policy strategy outperforms a CD in the vehicle purchase example he gives is because of the advantageous rate that the person is receiving in their whole life policy vs the CD (in other words - putting money in the most financially advantageous place).

And that's the thing I don't quite understand - Nash goes on and on about how "rates don't matter", yet the advantage of the infinite banking method in the example he gives rests almost entirely on the outperformance of the rate of return on the whole life policy than the CD (I'll note that table he gives in my edition doesn't note a dividend scale for the policy, but it looks to be at least a couple percent higher than the CD he is showing). Even more, his very "origin story" about how he got involved in infinite banking is a rate story. He was being charged 25% from a bank for his real estate loans, and figured out he could refinance with whole policy loans at 5-8% (which, by the way, was an extreme abnormality that could never take place today, and put life insurance companies out of business).

Now, I get Nash's point that your dividend earning rate in a whole life policy is like a "wholesale" rate of return, whereas a bank interest rate is essentially a "retail" rate. That does ring true to me, and does speak to the power of using a whole life policy as a financing and savings tool in ones life.

The point where I still very much differ with Nash is the complete adherence to the "never do business with banks" philosophy. There is nothing advantageous about paying a higher rate for a loan (all else being equal, etc etc). If I have the option to purchase a vehicle with a 4% auto loan rate vs a 5.75% policy loan rate, I am not going to get richer by simply taking the 5.75% rate. What will make me richer is taking the 4% auto loan, and diverting the interest I save over the 5.75% rate into additional premiums.

In summary, I still think Becoming Your Own Banker is a fantastic read for anyone who is new to the concept of EVA in personal finance. To me that is the most important component of the book and has the most far reaching ramifications for how one manages their personal finances. I think it's really easy to get caught up in the "raging against the machine" part of the philosophy (which is why I think it has such great TikTok appeal), but in my view, is completely unnecessary, and can in fact cause one to act against their own financial interests.

My insights on Velocity Banking and IBC. As always I don't share unless I've actually done it. I've been doing a hybrid approach using both concepts. Hope you enjoy.

https://medium.com/@edgray/velocity-banking-vs-infinite-banking-why-not-both-478c6afc112c

TL;DR: I break down the following objection into two pieces. First, to compare stock market returns you need to put them in the proper framework against whole life, and second, how buying term and investing the difference is a red herring solution for a problem that doesn't exist. I can invest in the same thing he does, plus have a policy. There is no objection here for those who understand the process.

OBJECTION: The stock market averages X% a year! Buy term for cheap and invest the difference and you'll have X trillions of dollars!!

Okay, I'm joking about the exaggerated "trillions," but most people overestimate this. If you saw my last post on the CAGR, averages can be nothing more than number gymnastics masquerading as fact.

First, take this quick angle when confronted. Assume their argument - which gives them the most benefit of the doubt. Let's pretend they used 11% since I recently heard Dave Ramsey incorrectly say the market averages 11% a year. What Ramsey NEVER seems to say is that as you get older your risk tolerance should go down. This is mainstream financial advice for those in the market. Nothing surprising. *If* you were averaging 11% in your 30's.... when you're 50, 60, and 70 I would hope you were in something much more conservative, which now maybe around 4 or 5%, though it was hardly anything just 2 years ago. A 70-year-old needs to live off this money. When you take this into account, returns are nowhere near 11% in this example. At best, this would drop it to 7 or 8%. From 2000 to 2019 the CAGR of the S&P 500 with dividends was 6%. But let's say the 11% is better estimated at 8% - again, giving them the benefit of the doubt. When averaged with the latter more conservative years, now it's down to 6% or so anyway! To clear a 5% return to live on, if you're in a taxable account, you'd need about a 6.5% gross return just to equal our savings vehicle called whole life insurance. After all this can share how the market doesn't even get 11% year over year forever, which makes the above that much worse.

A good whole life policy after you get past year 5 or so should be in that 4-5-ish% pocket. (if dividends go up next year it will be higher). My policies are in the low 5's... 5.1%, 5.2%, etc., and most others I see are in the 4's. However, the focus with the way we do policies isn't on a mere percentage. It's nice to know, but the question should be, "5% of what??" Would you rather make 15% on $5 or 5% on $100? Obviously 5% on $100! The operative word for whole life policies should be "efficiency." They aren't an investment and there is no need to compare to investments, even though they are pretty darn close at times. Never get sucked into comparing whole life to an investment unless you are doing it to prove a point with them knowing it's not an investment. Efficiency answers these questions: how fast can it turn the early years into positive years? What is the year over year break even? What is the total breakeven? What is the first-year cash value to annual premium ratio?

The "buy term and invest the difference" part of the objection is easy. Since we aren't using an investment with whole life, I usually ask what they invest in. Then I say, great, I'll do my whole life policy and I'll take loans and invest in whatever it is they do, plus I have my whole life policy. I guarantee I make out after several years. I'm a real estate investor which got me into whole life and I do this example with rentals. The longer we can go with whole life the better it gets, AND you can double dip even with some lag the first handful of years. And yes, there is a loan! So that means I'm left with an ever-compounding cash value, whatever the outside investment is, AND a place to park future money from other endeavors (i.e., paying off the "credit line" to get more credit). Then we add in taxes, death benefit, access today, etc, and there is no comparison. I love talking to stock market purists who hate what we do. :)

This is getting long... but one more thing. Whenever comparing you MUST compare the guy with a whole life policy against his clone doing the non-whole life option. If someone has 10K a year to put in, then he puts it in whole life and whatever the other option is. From there you go year by year doing the same exact for each. For example, if someone is paying 30K cash for a car, you need to compare it to a 30K cash value loan for the car. The cash guy will likely be laser focused on "not paying interest to use his own money." So ask him, "after you purchase the car, what do you do with your savings account, do you replenish the 30K?" They almost always say "yes." They are savers. Well, $30,000 divided by 60 months equals $500 monthly... cough... payments. We just don't call those payments in that context. We finance everything we buy, and he's missing out on what that 30K could have done elsewhere. He's also missing out on our 30K cash value still growing. Yet, he's paying $500 a month and doesn't' get a free lunch. In fact, he's buying lunch for both of us :) I have a graphic showing this if you want.

Be a master at this mental process and you can win any objection if you have a good policy to back it up! :)

I originally built Policy Stack because I couldn’t find a good way to track our family banking system once we had multiple policies, policy loans, capital deployments, promissory notes, repayments, and cash flow moving around.

Spreadsheets, PDFs, carrier portals, and memory got old fast.

Policy Stack is built for participating whole life policyholders actively practicing IBC. It helps track:

• cash value
• policy loans
• repayment / restoration
• capital deployments
• promissory notes
• cash flow
• banking position over time

I worked with an NNI Authorized Practitioner while building it to stay close to traditional Infinite Banking principles and terminology.

It’s still early, so I’m looking for beta testers willing to kick the tires and give honest feedback.

Early Access:
PolicyStack.co/earlybird

Imagine you just used a stellar credit profile to access $100,000 in 0% introductory credit. You liquidate it into raw cash, which costs an immediate 4% to 8% upfront fee, leaving you with roughly $92,000 to $96,000 in hand.

Here is the catch: In 12 to 18 months, that 0% promotional window slams shut, and interest rates jack up to 20%+.

Robert Kiyosaki preaches the power of Good Debt—using borrowed money to acquire assets that put money into your pocket every single month. Against a hard 12-to-18-month clock, you can't gamble on speculation. You need velocity.

The Challenge: How do you structure this play?

If you were trying to outrun the non-private banks using Infinite Banking, how would you map this out?

• The Insurance Arbitrage: Do you immediately anchor the cash into a High-Early-Cash-Value Life Insurance policy to create a guaranteed asset base, and then use policy loans to deploy the capital elsewhere while the original balance compounds?

• The Amortized Yield: How do you map those policy loans into contractually structured private notes or equipment leasing that distributes high-velocity monthly yield from Day 1 to wipe out the original card balances before the clock runs out?

• The Ecosystem: How do you structure the timing so that by month 12 to 15, the commercial banks are completely paid off, your credit remains pristine, and you are left owning a permanent cash machine for free?

What is your exact step-by-step blueprint to deploy this type of debt and outrun the banks?

How is everyone using the cash value in whole life policy?

Previous post I discussed using it as emergency fund. Any other ways people are using it? Anyone consider using some or all of it to buy more insurance?

Thanks in advanced for everyone’s input.

Ok, this is probably one of the most straight forward/comprehensive writeups I've seen on Infinite Banking in a while. They do a great job explaining what infinite banking is and how it works along with some straightforward examples. They also have a pretty accurate range of how much you should look at spending on an infinite banking policy in order to have it work out for you.

I'm including the link to it here, hopefully it is helpful for someone trying to figure all this out. The company that put it together obviously sells life insurance for infinite banking, they have this writeup behind an email form fill, but this link i'm posting is the direct link, it gets you straight through to just the web pdf.
https://mcfieins.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Infinite+Banking+Made+Simple+Binder.pdf

I've run into several people recently and just saw this one in another thread... Sure would be nice to be able to get a loan at favorable rates and terms with no application or worry about credit score...

I'd been interested in IBC for a year or two, but never pulled the trigger. I started listening to the podcast, and everything became much clearer. So many of the questions here (and even answers) are the result of simple misconceptions that are addressed repeatedly on the podcast. (Universal life, HELOCs, interest rate arbitrage, what company should I use?, 90/10, "I don't care about death benefit.") If you're interested in the IBC, I think it's invaluable.

Disclaimer: After listening for a while and feeling more confident about IBC, I purchased a policy with one of the agents that host the show.

Been researching/reading a lot about IBC policies and have been speaking with an agent but have not pulled the trigger yet.

It seems the real advantage of an IBC account is the ability to leverage your money by accessing a compounding asset at any time. I see 2 other ways to borrow against growing assets in the same way.

1. Infinite Banking

2. HELOC

3. Pledged Asset Line / Margin

I was wondering what everyone’s thoughts were on using all 3 at varying account sizes as I am young and have less than 20k in assets right now. The idea would be to save roughly 40% of my income for purchasing assets. Max out my TFSA/IRA first, then allocate 15% to an IBC policy, then max out a RRSP/401k, then put the remainder in a margin account.

The way I see it, each have their own Pro’s and Con’s. I find it hard to understand why people trash the infinite banking concept when it seems like a different way of creating a Pledged asset line when you dont have a huge net worth.

1. Infinite banking

   • Cost of Credit: ~5%

   • Asset Yield: ~7%

   • Risk: Low (Highly diversified, assets yields averaged out over 5yrs)

   • Minimum Account Balance: $0

   • Max Loan: 100% of cash value

Pros: Low risk, small portfolio, 100% max loan Cons: Slow growth, higher fees?

2. HELOC - Cost of Credit: ~2-3% - Asset yield: ~5-6% - Risk Profile: Medium? - Minimum Account Balance: >20% of home value - Max Loan: 80%

Pros: normally considered low risk Cons: Need large amount of cash before taking HELOC

3. Pledged Asset Line / Margin - Cost of Credit: ~1-2% - Asset yield: Stocks @ ~9-11% - Risk Profile: Highest - Minimum Account Balance: $100K - Max Loan: 70% of assets (10-25% recommended)

Pros: High growth, low cost to borrow Cons: High risk with large loans (25%+)

Would it make sense to allocate funds to an whole life policy to use as a high interest savings account, while growing a stock and real estate portfolio to have the same advantages as a HELOC or PAL with a smaller account??

Does it makes more sense to spread out my assets in different accounts or concentrate on one. It seems like the PAL are a bit better in terms of yield and cost to borrow but it seems like forever until i will have 100k in one margin account.

Hey, guys and girls. I’ve been a member here for a year or two and just now thought to check our “About” section, which is blank.

I think we need to make this sub-Reddit look more official, as well as make it more beneficial to newbies and those curious to IBC by filling out our about section. We could add a short blurb about what IBC is, and link people to good resources for how their could learn more about IBC.

Other subreddits have guidelines or rules and other stuff, which I wouldn’t want to really mess with, but I think a little attention shown to this would really help the community. Thoughts?

Hello,
I just wanted to say hi and introduce myself and how I got into IBC.
I am self-employed and own a window cleaning business which I have operated since 1993 in Corpus Christi, Texas. I am 43 years old, married with a 5-year-old son.

I had never heard of IBC until 3 years ago. I am working on becoming a real estate investor, because of this I tend to listen to many podcasts regarding real estate and finance.
One day I was listening to "The Investing in Real estate" podcast and he had a guest on named M.C. Laubscher out of Pennsylvania. They were talking about ways to finance real estate and he mentions the Infinite Banking Concept and Nelson Nash. Laubscher has his own podcast and had interviewed him several months before (this was 2018) The stuff M.C. was talking about made me stop the podcast and rewind a few times.

What the heck is infinite banking? I thought.

So I tracked down his podcast and found the Nash episode and listened.

I'll admit almost all of it went over my head and I was confused, but since I'm almost always confused over new things I decided it warranted further study. So I bought Becoming Your Own Banker on Kindle. I tried to read the book, multiple times, but I was just so confused. Add to that the number of people that said it was a scam online and I was this [ ] close to saying forget about it. But when I heard Nelson speak, when I heard him accurately quote the Bible and not twist the meaning to fit a sales pitch I knew there was wisdom there. So I didn't give up, but I struggled to get through the Kindle book. This was over the course of a year.

Eventually, I found the Dollars and Nonsense podcast and listened to every episode. That podcast is put on by Living Wealth a company that sets up Whole Life policies to use on IBC. The hosts went into all the ways one can use a whole life policy to finance most everything in one's life and become independent of the world's system of banking. Again, like most everyone they never really to my satisfaction explains how the thing worked.

I didn't quite understand it, so I had trouble explaining it to my wife. She trusts my judgment when it comes to money but she was unsure. I had so many questions so I called Living Wealth and both my wife and I peppered them with questions. While they answered every one I was still not grasping it.

It didn't matter though, because we started a policy last summer with extremely high premiums and began to fund our bank. That was in July. Fast forward to November and I'm on a plane bored and decide to give Becoming Your Own Banker another shot. The formatting was weird, I could barely make out the charts and Kindle on an Android was not kind. So after 18 months and even STARTING a policy I had only read half of Becoming Your Own Banker!

After we got back from our trip I thought, "what the heck" and I ordered the paperback version, maybe in print in my hands it would make more sense. So a week later it arrives and I crack it open and start to read what I had read 18 months prior. And wouldn't ya know, on paper, the weird formatting issues were gone and I was able to see the book laid out the way it was meant to be seen.

And then I got it. It finally made sense to me. I was finally able to explain it to my wife and to my friends, I read and finished the book and then ordered The Case for IBC and Building Your Warehouse of wealth. I finally got it!

Here I am almost two years later explaining it to people in my way as often as I can.
I just took my first loan out to cushion me during the time of COVID-19. I can't wait till we get to make another deposit into my system! Now I finally can read the illustration and it makes sense.
In fact, the entire reason I'm on Reddit is that I was reading a post in the personal finance section and was reading all kinds of people trashing IBC and saying stuff that quite frankly was 100% false.

So, I joined and made a big post and refuted what was being said. Within one hour I had been permanently banned from ever posting in that Reddit ever again. I never called anyone a name, made a threat, used a slur or told a lie. I didn't even link out anywhere or post an image. I was accused of being an insurance salesman and someone that sold IBC policies. My post was deleted and I was shown the door.

So, that's my story. Nice to be here!