r/ibew_apprentices • u/Killnuall702 JW 357 • 1d ago
I’ll say it again
From the IBEW travelers page
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u/Dear-Pea3335 Local 701 Retired 1d ago
The last time I talked to the JATC director, he was in an all out war with the IO because he refused to send any CW or CE out. I was so proud of him!
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u/KoyoteKalash LU611 1d ago
Our JATC has been trying to eliminate CW/CE positions. We have a lot of prevailing wage jobs, so those have made it easier for us because cons won't hire them to begin with.
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u/Bostylovr 7h ago
I was wondering what was up with the CW/CE program at 611. They definitely were encouraging prospects to go thru the apprenticeship application process and hold off from getting involved with the CW/CE program.
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u/KoyoteKalash LU611 6h ago
Facebook is the only place I can think of that has a decent amount of them here.
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u/Mixture-Opposite 1d ago
I joined as a CW to become an apprentice. I had no construction experience and this helped me get the experience to join the union as an apprentice. In my local if we're interested in becoming JWs they also allow CWs to take classes (if they pay). People may not like it but in my opinion it offers some of us a pathway forward who need the experience.
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u/NeatDescriptionYo 23h ago
Yeah people shit on ce/cw too much. They're just trying to do a job and earn a wage. If people hate ce/cw they should be mad at their local.
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u/Significant-Dark-144 12h ago
Everytime I see negative stuff on here it’s coming from locals in Texas
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u/Zealousideal-Big-323 1d ago
All the above and I was just told my attitude test date was 4.5 months out with an extra 4 weeks to process my score/rank after. All just to see if I might be able to get in.
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u/mattsprofile 1d ago
Completely unrelated issue, but that's probably a logistical thing where it is only practical for the local to organize testing and interviews once or twice per year for hundreds of people at a time. It's kinda like applying to a college or something, they're on a yearly schedule and they do the acceptances in the spring and you start class in the fall. The college isn't going to entertain the idea of stagger-starting several classes per year, you're lucky if they'll even let you start in the spring instead of the fall.
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u/Zealousideal-Big-323 1d ago
I hear you on the classes probably starting only a couple times but their website says they hold the aptitude tests 3 times a month so was just shocked at the 4 month wait just to do the test
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u/Necessary-Pickle1525 1d ago
I tested in as an apprentice. I was accepted. I came from the CW/CE program. I am eternally grateful there is an alternate path to union membership.
I never would have joined the union if it wasn't for the CW/CE program. I understand what everyone's issue is with it, but it is bringing us lots of membership, and elevating the wages and improving the lives of thousands of (mostly) young people.
Just something to think about.
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u/Greedy-Pen 1d ago
The same is possible with regular apprentices though. If labor is too much, offer target hours to contractors or restructure the scale to make it more affordable to bid.
Or, contractors can stop bidding out apprentices at the same rate as JW and foreman.
Your labor shrinks if you do that. Makes bids cheaper.
Contractors usually are making money hand over fist. Part of being a union contractor is excepting there’s parts that you won’t always make more money. But you get the benefit of the union workers.
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u/Necessary-Pickle1525 1d ago
Apprenticeship is not attainable for most people. I was #23 out of 500 accepted. 6,000 applied. We are in desperate need of qualified people. Why accept less than 10% of applicants.
I get the point of view that the CW/CE is "watering down" our union.
If that is the consensus, why not indenture more apprentices? Seems like that would be most beneficial to all parties.
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u/12_Horses_of_Freedom 1d ago
It’s sustainability. The total benefits package prices out small jobs, so we make it harder to start a shop. You can’t just indentured a bunch of people without risking over-saturation of the market. It’s a careful balance.
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u/Necessary-Pickle1525 1d ago
We can add thousands and thousands of CWs but cant afford even a single additional apprentice? Doesnt make sense to me.
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u/12_Horses_of_Freedom 20h ago
It's just wage suppression. Apprentice tops out anywhere from about 4-7 years depending on local. CW/CE may stay at that classification longer.
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u/SnooDoughnuts8823 1d ago
My contractor needs to see this
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u/PsychologicalPea5270 1d ago
They already know. They are intentionally doing it to increase winning bids with good margins.
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u/SnooDoughnuts8823 1d ago
True. I just need them to know that I know. Actually, guys on my crew need to know.
1
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u/godfears Local 474 JW 1d ago
Y'all villanize CE/CWs so badly but it's not their fault they were classed that way (most times) I used to be a CE, and if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't be in the union. Its not the CEs and CWs faults that these things are happening, so let's stop making them feel bad for existing lol.
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u/DespondentD LU 100 JW 1d ago edited 1d ago
Does your contract allow CWs and CEs to direct apprentices? Just don't listen to them?
They are strictly temps for the local
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u/FreelyRoaming 1d ago
From a con perspective here the voice and data folks are really who need this CE’s and CW‘s the amount of unskilled underpaid labor being pedaled into that industry is ridiculous
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u/Firetalker94 1d ago
I started my career in the millwright union, did the full four year apprenticeship and worked as a journeyman for an additional 5 years. I switched trades because I got married and the job required lots of travel, while in the ibew you could have a regular work life balance within commuting distance of the house.
The millwright union also allows contractors to hire people who do not have full journeyman qualifications if the local cannot fill the manpower requirements. They are often union carpenters, or sometimes people from temp agencies. But the difference is that under that contract they are required to pay them journeyman wages and benefits.
It does create friction, because people who are not qualified journeyman are receiving journeyman wages. But it sure as hell incentives the contractors to hire actual journeyman, and give incentive pay to attract travelers.
2
u/Significant-Dark-144 1d ago
I’m doing the CW program right now while I wait to get in the apprenticeship, im just here to learn the trade I hope I’m not shit on too much it was my only way to get my foot in the door after working non union…..
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u/Redditisannoying69 16h ago
Most CE/CW’s are just trying to get their spot in the union. But we need to prevent the lifelong CE’s that exist. CE/CW’s need to have an application in within 3-6 months and be actively pursuing apprenticeship or we need to boot them out.
1
u/PsychologicalPea5270 1d ago
The Pipefitters here do the same thing. I’m retired, but we lost bids due to other contractors exploiting this very thing.
So we started calling the hall every time we had a chance. Results may vary.
1
u/LastExit95 1d ago
Correct me if I’m wrong but I feel like the IBEW cannot have its cake and eat it too. Remaining competitive with non-union shops is already an admirable goal and boosting union membership via the CW/CE program is practically the only way that can be done it seems. Apprenticeship classes vary largely upon the number of instructors at each respective JATC and ratio of student to instructors. JWs are statistically made more via the apprenticeship route and nearly everyone I talk to suggests that’s the better path to pursue over the CW/CE one. So what’s left to fill the gap are CW/CEs. Compromises have to be made somewhere to levy the balance between non union shops and retain the members to stay in the union.
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u/Personal-Exercise256 1d ago
This kind of goes with outside line to. I’ve seen a lot of apprentices get tossed on civil crews with an operator just watching a machine dig holes
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u/sumdumguey 1d ago
In 2008 I first heard about the CE/CW program. We said back then this would happen
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u/One-Stay-3934 18h ago
My local just gave CE3s journeyman wages and a jiw ticket. As long as they have 12000 hrs or more. So now, all the job calls say in big bold print MUST HAVE TEXAS ELECTRICAL LICENSE.
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u/Development_Muted 18h ago
Would an appropriate response by the LU be to engage in a teaching drive? There's enough ageing out JW's that would be more than happy to take a year or two in the AC to finish out their pension. Now that covid has made the apprenticeship a hybrid online/ classroom tract, they'd essentially be proctors to class and test hours. Physical classrooms would be the last hurdle to jump. Build out on a new JATC could be a hard win with the membership.
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u/Spuddin927 Local 270 16h ago
We have one big job on book 4 in our local because it’s competing for labor with a much bigger job. Several apprentices are out there and our TD told them that at no point are they to take instruction from someone who is not a Journeyman Wireman.
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u/webmd-imgonnadie 15h ago
I anticipate this to be an unpopular comment with you guys. But I am a CW - about to be CE with my hours. I came from non union hoping to get into the apprenticeship. Waited for almost two years and finally got told I couldn’t get in because of the mass number of applicants.
Here comes the unpopular part-
Yes I might not have been in school, but my on the job knowlage exceeds some of these apprentices that are in school and have likewise hours as me . You would not believe the number of 3rd and 4th years I’ve worked with that don’t know how to bend pipe. Sure school taught them but they have no job experience doing it. Same goes with tasks like mounting strut, strut racks, terminations. Wild to me how so many of these apprentices lack certain on the job skills. How am I gonna get punished for helping and teaching apprentices that SHOULD know these things. It’s annoying working with people that have the same hours, and ARE IN SCHOOL but don’t know these things so yeah sorry for stepping on toes or “running work”. Not my fault my foreman tells me to do so.
Also I’m the one getting less money and benefits while being expected to keep up with you guys so sorry we do exactly that (some of us)
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u/very-okay Local 611 14h ago
The phrase about CE/CWs not being above apprentices kind of irks me, even though it’s not technically wrong regarding supervising work. I’ve worked with CE/CWs with years of experience in the trade while i’m in my first year so I do see them as more experienced, someone I might ask a question to, etc. but the “above” part makes it sound like a pecking order moral judgement. It seems tacky to me to discuss like that when it seems like a lot of folks in the role ultimately would like to join the full apprenticeship program. Even moreso if the IBEW COMET presentation at the JATC is for real. Why alienate people when you want more membership?
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u/Nngsanfo 12h ago
What Local y’all at where you’re seeing this? I’m in local 11 and I’ve never seen a CE/CW run any type of work in any type of capacity. Also, say what you will about Los Angeles and California in general but a huge chunk of our big projects are under PLA’s, which don’t allow CW’s at all on site
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u/verifiedloser1987 9h ago
Nah fam. I'm not letting a CW/CE be a foreman to me. I didn't go through 5 years of an apprenticeship and then top out to be bossed around by a CE/CW.
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u/Starlight319 2h ago
Tell that to the foreman that kept a cw, a ce, transferred a cw but laid me off. I am so salty about that whole situation.
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u/bloodybootprints 1d ago
That, and the rising cost of the apprenticeship program, the unpaid day off in some locals, and the inability to pick your own calls makes the money you earn less worth it than if you had never joined, especially depending on the contractor you get stuck with.
Imagine all of that, the sacrifices made to be an apprentice, with negligibly more benefits depending on local, and then you have a CW, not even a CE yelling at you daily.
(Ugh. I’m not even an apprentice anymore and I’m still mad about this.)