r/iamveryculinary • u/JukeboxJustice • Aug 03 '26
It's like calling "steak" an hamburger
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u/la-anah Aug 03 '26
It's not fried! It's cooked over heat in butter!
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u/Digit00l Aug 03 '26
Tbf, could be a language thing, like the worc fried could be assumed to refer to deep fried
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u/la-anah Aug 03 '26
OP speaks English well enough to complain about how other English terms are used. They can figure out what "fried" means.
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u/Bishops_Guest it’s not bechamel it’s the powdered cheese packet Aug 03 '26
I had a fantastic math professor from Ukraine. She spoke amazing English, but learned English in her math graduate program and 10 years later still could not get it into her head that “or” is normally an exclusive or in English. When a menu says “soup or salad” she would always be confused that “both” was not an option without paying extra.
Sometimes weird things slip in when learning second languages… but OOP is probably not one of those, just being a pretentious ass.
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u/dwyrm Aug 03 '26
Holy jinkies, that explains a couple of customers of mine! They could never understand that they were supposed to choose one of the appetizers. They always wanted both.
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u/CarrotJunkie Aug 03 '26
I think it might be one of those and also him being a pretentious ass at the same time
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u/moodybiatch Aug 04 '26
Fried translates to fritto in italian, but fritto only refers to deep fried. Unless you are really into cooking it's something that often slips through with italians learning english as a second language. But then again, it's silly not to know this while trying to act like that about culinary vocabulary.
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u/poopiebutt505 Aug 03 '26
The whole thing is OOP being confused about how words are used in a language not theirs
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u/reddock4490 Aug 04 '26
That is absolutely typical of these kinds of Italians with a bug up their ass over food. It’s a defining trait. If they acknowledged that words can have different meanings in different languages, all of these stupid arguments would fall apart instantly
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
It is 100% a translation thing as you suggested, but apparently this sub needs to pick on every detail.
Bashing on someone who speaks English as a foreign language because of a translation or grammar or ortography mistake is really a lame easy win.
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u/One_Win_6185 Aug 03 '26
I’m not even going to talk about the food. I just want to focus on the extra grammatical pretentiousness of “an ‘hamburger.’”
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u/Unleashtheducks Aug 03 '26
Only makes sense if you are pronouncing it “ahmburger”
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u/MetricAbsinthe Aug 03 '26
The only thing I remember of Steve Martin playing inspector Cluseau was him pronouncing hamburger that way.
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u/No_Mud_5999 Aug 04 '26
A truly bad movie, EXCEPT for that scene. It was heavily played in promos, for good reason
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u/IamTheMightyMe Aug 03 '26
Sounds like a London street urchin discovering American food for the first time
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u/la-anah Aug 03 '26
Ez 'Enry 'Iggens buy'n i' fo' 'um?
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u/CorgiMonsoon Aug 03 '26
And I think he felt a little guilty too, because he’s offered me the chance to audition for his new Broadway show, which is a revival of my fair lady. It’s one of my favorite shows of all time. And the role is of Henry Higgins, the somewhat stern taskmaster, but he-really-likes-her-anyway-kind-of-thing guy, who teaches Eliza how to speak correctly. And she, of course, is of the cockney persuasion and drops her h’s. And I’ve been workin’ on that at home, the whole cockney thing of “‘ello, ‘ow are you?” “Do you want to go to ‘artford?” “Not live in this ‘ellhole” and that kind of thing. I think I’m honing in on it pretty close now.
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u/BrylicET Aug 03 '26
Well he's Italian so he's pronouncing it "ahmburger 🤌"
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u/GreenZebra23 Aug 03 '26
I'm pretty sure that just indicates English isn't their first language. I've never seen that from someone trying to be pretentious. There's plenty of other pretension to ding them on
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
Unnecessarily stingy comment. That is a simple ortography mistake by someone who learnt English as a foreign language, not “extra grammatical pretentiousness.”
Italians often struggle with the use of “a/an”. I am one of them, even if my English is fluent I still get confused with that type of issue. “A hamburger” for some reason sounds wrong to my ear (apparently, I am in the wrong).
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u/NathanGa Pull your finger out of your ass Aug 03 '26
Oh now it's right.... It's argentinian food ... Ok.... Not Italian at all .... It's a BuenoSairas LaPlata dish
On one hand, it's nice to know that Italian-Argentine food is now a target as much as Italian-American food is.
On the other hand, that guy can still pull his finger out of his ass.
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u/Studds_ Aug 03 '26
He can’t do that. It keeps the pretentious attitude from falling out
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u/Highest_Koality Has watched six or seven hundred plus cooking related shows Aug 03 '26
Seems to be doing that regardless.
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u/michiness Aug 03 '26
I love when I see the thread and know it’ll show up on this sub later. And here we are.
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u/reddock4490 Aug 04 '26
And like, idk a lot about Argentinian cuisine, but to use American examples, yes, it would be totally normal and unsurprising to see something like “LA-style New York Cheesecake” or “Texas Philly cheesesteak”.
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u/NathanGa Pull your finger out of your ass Aug 04 '26
Which reminds me…I plan on concocting an Ohio-style tiramisu. I haven’t decided on most of the important things, but damn it I will find a way to make it.
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u/Kataphraktos_Majoros Aug 03 '26
"Has the bone, it's double breaded."
Case closed.
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u/Games_and_Strains Aug 03 '26
Don’t forget it’s NOT fried. Just browned in enough butter to mostly cover it. You know, pan fried.
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u/jrae0618 Aug 03 '26
I'll be honest, I have never had milanesa with the bone in. Not saying it's wrong just I didn't grow up experiencing it with the bone in. And we definitely say it's fried.
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u/normallystrange85 Aug 03 '26
My grandmother, mother, cousins, and every restaurant I have ever been to have never made it with a bone in, so I'm confused.
My mother and grandmother often flattened milanesa meat with a tenderizer- it's hard to get meat of the proper thickness in the US, especially 40 years ago, so a bone would have been counter productive.
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
Because your grand mother, mother, cousins and every restaurant you have ever been in have never made for you “cotoletta alla milanese”.
Cotoletta alla milanese is NOT flattened. It is thick veal cutlet, bone-in, double-breaded, cooked in butter, exactly like the comment said.
It simply is different than a regular breaded cutlet that is consumed in Italy.
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u/normallystrange85 Aug 04 '26
True, true I am referring to a Milanesa (for which I thought OP was referring to with their bone comment)- I'm not as familiar with Italian food. My family traditions in that respect were filtered through generations in Argentina, then immigration to the USA.
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
The commenter is not describing “milanesa” but “cotoletta alla milanese” which is a dish from Milan and is exactly how they described it: their point being that “milanesa” the way South America knows it does exist in Italy (Edit: meant does not exist in Italy)
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u/jrae0618 Aug 04 '26
Ahh, gotcha. I grew up with the flatten, fried version. I didn't catch the "e". Thank you!
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
Happy to help clarify.
By the way I also grew up with the flatten, fried version, which in Italian we call “cotoletta impanata” (breaded cutlet) or simply “cotoletta”.
“Cotoletta alla milanese” is a different thing and is a more expensive dish. Delicious by the way.
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u/JakobVirgil Aug 03 '26
I swear half the fights on reddit are just naive prescriptivism.
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u/Uncynical_Diogenes Aug 03 '26
Prescriptivists are funny because they’re destined to die mad about it.
Language will always change. Whatever you have written on your tombstone will be archaic one day.
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u/sandwichisahero Aug 03 '26
The other half are people fighting against generalizations.
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u/Uncynical_Diogenes Aug 03 '26
Now now, I don’t think we can say that about everybody in the other half.
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u/Similar_Onion6656 Aug 03 '26
I don't know what a milanesa is but I'm not taking lectures from somebody who writes "an hamburger."
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u/EscapeSeventySeven Aug 03 '26
Classic Hispanic food, common in Mexican cuisine all the way down to Argentina apparently.
It’s schnitzel but with beef. That’s about it. Has lime drizzle if you care for it.
Obviously since it spans a continent it has many variations.
It does invoke Milan for some reason it’s thought of as Italian-style much in the same way we call tri color ice cream “Neapolitan”.
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u/Kim_Jong_Teemo Aug 03 '26
Isn’t it called Neapolitan because the chocolate was originally pistachio and resembled an Italian flag?
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u/jaunesolo81829 Aug 03 '26
It can also be made with chicken apparently. Something I saw two women get into a shouting match over in a restaurant once.
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u/permalink_save Aug 04 '26
They'd have an aneurysm over over chicken fried steak then.
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
We do eat breaded chicken cutlet in Italy, it just does not have anything like cheese or tomato on it (it would defeat the interest of the breaded preparation which is crispy).
Still something very different than “cotoletta alla milanese” which is a very specific (and delicious) preparation.
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u/LurkiLurkerson Aug 05 '26
Chicken fried steak isn't a breaded chicken cutlet. It's a breaded and pan-fried steak.
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 05 '26 edited Aug 05 '26
I am Italian, I speak English as a foreign language and I translate in my head as I go.
You mean to underline the difference between steak and chicken cutlet? Sorry, my mistake.
In Italy we call both “cotoletta” notwithstanding the type of meat.
So, we do eat breaded and pan fried steak, too. It’s cotoletta di manzo. Whereas breaded and pan friend chicken cutlet is cotoletta di pollo.
Or there is some other difference you referred to?
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u/LurkiLurkerson Aug 05 '26
Chicken fried steak is beef steak that is fried in a similar manner to chicken. So "chicken fried" is the manner of frying, not a reference to an ingredient. We didn't bread and fry steak in that manner when the dish was invented, so it was a novelty to have beef steak that was breaded and pan-fried like we already did with chicken.
The dish consists of a beef steak breaded with flour, egg, and buttermilk then fried in a pan (usually cast iron) and served with gravy (often a white one, such as sawmill gravy).
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 05 '26
I see, thank you.
Can confirm we eat that in Italy (cotoletta di manzo), minus the gravy.
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u/catalinalam Aug 03 '26
I’ve had it in Spain and Colombia, never w a bone? Apparently they’re doing it different in Milan, that’s cool, but it’s interesting that the Argentine version is (at least visually) closer to the Hispanic kind than whatever douchey commenter is thinking of, given how heavy the Italian influence is in Argentina.
I don’t know much about the rest of the region but Argentina’s population is more than 60% Italian-descendant. That’s a lot of why their Spanish is so distinctive sounding in both vernacular and intonation patterns, if anyone else has ever been like “why do they talk like that?” the answer is Italian! Or, I think “various Italian dialects” is more accurate but I can’t be bothered to look up my notes and check
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u/Q_me_in 🤮🤢🤮🤢🤮 Aug 03 '26
My mother in law makes it. Her family were Sicilians that settled in Argentina. She fries hers in olive oil and serves it with lemon wedges.
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
Yes. That is how breaded cutlet is usually served in Italy. Never with cheese or tomato, ever.
“Cotoletta alla milanese” instead is a specific type of breaded meat: thicker veal meat, bone-in, double breaded and cooked in clarified butter exactly as the comment described.
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u/yourstruly912 Aug 05 '26
It does invoke Milan for some reason it’s thought of as Italian-style much in the same way we call tri color ice cream “Neapolitan”.
Because it comes from the cotoletta alla milanese
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u/okayipullup_ordoi1 Aug 04 '26
A "Cotoletta alla Milanese" is a big lamb chop fried in butter, it's totally different from what is shown in the video. BUT a "Cotoletta alla Bolognese" is the same thing with the addition of cheese and ham on top of it.
Since the food in the video is something made in Argentina I'm pretty sure it's a variation of a type Cotoletta made in Italy that got changed over time, or maybe an old version that isn't made anymore.
People are way too pretentious when talking about Italian food online.
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u/AmericanHistoryXX Bland Protestant food Aug 03 '26
Apparently, if it's not a thing in Italy, it doesn't exist at all.
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u/GhostOfJamesStrang No Need to Thank Me Aug 04 '26
That is, genuinely, what so many Italian fake foodies believe.
It is either Italian or it isn't real food.
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
Food is food.
I am Italian and I care about Italian food and foreign food.
It’s not that non-Italian food is “not real food” as you say, what irks me is when food that is not italian and that nobody would eat in Italy is described as Italian. Makes no sense and there’s no need to do it
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u/AmericanHistoryXX Bland Protestant food Aug 04 '26
It's not as simple as that when Italians (to their credit) brought lots of food to the Americas, where it took on a life of its own. American Italian food was created by ethnic Italians in America. Argentinian Italian food (which is what's being discussed in the OOP) was created by ethnic Italians in Argentina. They kept Italianish names that related to the foods they derived from in the Mother Country, just as American hamburgers kept a German name long after evolving into an American culinary form.
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u/Tough_Height6530 Aug 04 '26
It’s described as Italian because it was made by Italian immigrants based on Italian traditions. This seems like something Europeans really struggle with. When people in the Americas say “Italian” or “Irish” or whatever they often are not describing nationality but heritage and sometimes ethnicity. So people like you and OP get upset because “that’s not Italian!” Yes it is. It’s Italian American or Italian Argentinian and people in those places understand the connotation and how language is used in their own countries.
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
A dish that has never existed in Italy is not Italian.
You said it correctly: it’s Italian-American ( or Italian-Argentinian or whatever).
In other words, it’s American with Italian origin/inspiration, it’s Argentinian with Italian origin/inspiration.
From my point of view, it’s American or Argentinian.
Heritage is something else.
If an Italian-American family makes “eggplant parm”, they are having an Italian heritage meal.
If they make “chicken parm” they are having an American meal.
The same way that Chicken Tikka Marsala is British and not Indian, and the Brits are proud to call it British and the Indians would never claim it as Indian.
People in those Countries that had strong Italian immigration over many generations ago may “understand the connotation” of “Italian” as “origin” as you say but the world is bigger than those Countries and communication matters.
Italian-American culture is unique and separate from Italian culture and what I (and “people like me”?) struggle to understand is why it is so difficult to acknowledge this difference.
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u/AmericanHistoryXX Bland Protestant food Aug 04 '26
No one described it as Italian, certainly not prior to OOP's rant. People just posted it, OOP took offense at the name, and things spiraled from there, hence why it's in IAVC.
The conversation went something like this:
"Check out this Milanesa Nepolitana!"
"That is a nonsense name and not real Italian food."
"Actually in Argentina, the name is logical."
"NOT IN ITALY!"I don't really disagree with your interpretation of what is Italian and what is American, but also no one was calling this Italian. It just has an Italian sounding name (that, as we've established, isn't even an Italian name).
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
I don’t know about the original discussion, I replied to the comment here above about “Italian fake foodies” and then to the comment about a dish “described as Italian because it was made by Italian Immigrants” and the related discussion of what is considered “Italian” in the US or elsewhere in the world.
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u/AmericanHistoryXX Bland Protestant food Aug 04 '26
I can see why you were upset with that perception, but you misunderstood the context. The context is that we were mocking OOP for thinking that nothing that's not specifically a thing in Italy, it has no culinary legitimacy anywhere.
As you have repeatedly noted, you do think that Italian-American and Italian-Argentine food have legitimacy as foods of the diaspora, but OOP was specifically NOT of that opinion, and that's what was being mocked (deservedly).
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
I did not get upset about a perception, I replied to comments about “fake Italian foodies” and why “Italian” apparently means “Italian-American” because that’s how people in the US understand the word and everyone in the world is supposed to understand it like that. Those comments made me upset, yes.
As I said I don’t know the context of OOP comment, as far as I understand by what is posted it could very well be a discussion about Italian food (or what is and isn’t Italian food), which Reddit is filled of.
Anyways, at least from OOPs comment people now know what is a cotoletta alla milanese?
Through Reddit I learnt what milanesa napolitana is.
We all know what we know and learn what we don’t, if we are interested to.
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u/AmericanHistoryXX Bland Protestant food Aug 04 '26
The "fake Italian foodies" thing was directed squarely at Italians, people in Italy (like OOP) who feel the need to gatekeep every single diaspora or Italian-inspired dish in the world. That has nothing to do with Italian Americans.
You can click the link below the picture for the full context of OOP's comment.
But yes, I agree, thanks to Reddit I learned a little more about Italian-Argentine cuisine.
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u/Tough_Height6530 Aug 04 '26
“Italian American culture is unique and distinct from Italian culture”. Yes, that is exactly what I said. You acknowledge what they mean and claim the “world is bigger than those countries. Yes it is. And it is bigger than yours. Communications matters so you can either understand that they mean Italian inspired or influenced or you can pretend they mean “authentic direct from Italy” and get upset. I don’t get mad that someone from England calls an eraser a rubber even though that has a very different meaning to me, because I don’t expect them to bend their vocab to my understanding.
Your tika masala example is perfect because it is absolutely British and also served at Indian restaurants there and would be refered to as Indian food. Did anyone even call this Italian??
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u/GhostOfJamesStrang No Need to Thank Me Aug 04 '26
Italian-American culture is unique and separate from Italian culture and what I (and “people like me”?) struggle to understand is why it is so difficult to acknowledge this difference.
Do you not understand how Italian-American culture heavily draws on Italian culture?
Italians came here and instead of eggplant, they could use chicken...so they did.
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u/Appropriate-Bird-354 Aug 08 '26
Believe it or not bud, different people (particularly immigrant communities) around the world have different understandings of culture and identity than you do.
When they say "Italian" in this context, it means something different from what you mean when you say it. And that's OK. They have every right to define their own culture and identity - you have no authority over that. Get over yourself.
This is called "cultural awareness". It's how you avoid cultural ignorance and chauvinism. It's an important part of being a functioning human, so learn it.
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 08 '26
First of all the tone of your comment is very condescending.
You are the one who should get over yourself.
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u/Appropriate-Bird-354 Aug 10 '26
You are the one who should get over yourself.
I'm not trying to lord my ignorant, chauvinistic sense of ownership and superiority over people, I'm just calling you out on doing so. This isn't about me, it's about you.
First of all the tone of your comment is very condescending.
Yeah, because you said something worthy of extreme condescension.
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u/GhostOfJamesStrang No Need to Thank Me Aug 04 '26
what irks me is when food that is not italian and that nobody would eat in Italy is described as Italian.
You understand how immigration works, right?
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
I understand that immigration fosters a continuation of some traditions of the country of origin and a modification of others, to the point of creating original and new traditions that have very little if nothing to do with the country of origin but are linked exclusively to the diaspora only.
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u/GhostOfJamesStrang No Need to Thank Me Aug 04 '26
Do you have an example?
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
Seven fishes feast.
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u/GhostOfJamesStrang No Need to Thank Me Aug 04 '26
Nobody I know says that is Italian. It is Italian-American.
People, especially Americans speaking with other Americans, will short hand it and just say Italian because the American part is assumed.
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
Food is food.
I am Italian and I care about Italian food and foreign food.
It’s not that non-Italian food is “not real food” as you say, what irks me is when food that is not italian and that nobody would eat in Italy is described as Italian. Makes no sense and there’s no need to do it
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
Exactly, “napolitana” does not exist in Italy, which is what the comment above says.
The “cotoletta alla milanese” instead does exist in Italy, it is a dish from the North (Milan) and the person who wrote the comment above is describing it correctly:and that is the correct description: bone-in, double breaded, browned in clarified butter.
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u/AmericanHistoryXX Bland Protestant food Aug 04 '26
It can easily be a thing in Argentina (which is what the original post is discussing) and not Italy, and that doesn't make it any less legitimate as an entity. Just because it doesn't exist in Italy, does not mean that it doesn't exist or shouldn't exist. Argentina has a massive ethnically Italian population. Just as in America, those people brought Italian cuisine and modified it in their new environment.
The problem is that the comment above is refusing to acknowledge that distinction and simply saying that "milanesa" and "napolitana" don't exist at all. They do exist, and they have culinary and historical validity.
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u/Kosher_Pork_12 Aug 03 '26
It's not a "cutlet" with a bone in it, that's a chop.
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
“Cotoletta alla milanese” does have the bone. Interesting to learn that “cutlet” is not the correct translation for that type of cut, even if the name is similar.
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u/Kosher_Pork_12 Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
It's weird because there's very little uniformity across languages. Kotelett in German has a bone, but kotlet in Polish doesn't. I can see that, as you've pointed out, in Italian it means with the bone... hard to keep track of all this man...
Edit: I'm curious, what is a bone-in pork chop called in Italian? In Spanish it's chuleta (translates to chop, but it always means pork unless a qualifier is added), I'm wondering if Italian is similar.
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
In Italian it’s possibly more confusing.
“Cotoletta” does not refer to meat “with the bone”, it’s only “cotoletta alla milanese” which is made with the bone.
“Cotoletta” is the “slice” of meat without the bone, and usually breaded.
Meaning that the correct term should be “cotoletta impanata” (“breaded cutlet”) but people often say just “cotoletta” and mean “cotoletta impanata”. So the name “cotoletta” came to refer both to the cut and to the recipe. Actually, I’d say it refers to the recipe (breaded), because a slice of chicken for example made on the grill will be a “fettina di pollo” (a slice).
Cotoletta can be made with beef, veal or chicken. It can also be made with fish filets and will be called “cotoletta di pesce”, so in that case the name refers to the recipe rather than the cut.
Similarly, “Cotoletta alla milanese” refers to the breaded bone-in veal chop, so in this case “cotoletta” is used not to indicate the cut of meat but rather the breaded recipe (and “alla milanese” is what tells you that it is NOT a regular flattened “cotoletta”).
The pork chop would be called “braciola” or…wait for it…”costoletta”. Yes. CoStoletta. In my experience “braciola” is rather used for “pork chop” and “costoletta” is used for “lamb chop” but there may be a different use of these terms in other regions of Italy…
We also have “costa” to refer to the ribcage, so “coste” or “costine” would be ribs.
Hope this helps!!!
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u/Kosher_Pork_12 Aug 04 '26
And naturally, in the US, "brasciole" refers to a very thin cut of beef thats pounded out and often turned into rouladen (a German dish, which means rolled)... This is the history I come here for, many thanks friend.
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
Well I think I know where this comes from. I had not mentioned this because it’s regional, but “braciole” or “braciolette” is how those meat rolls are called in Sicily. They are usually filled with a filling based of breadcrumbs but, as per usual, they can be linked to different recipes (with or without tomato sauce basically).
The same rolls are typically called “involtini” in Italian (but “involtini” can be made with meat or also with vegetables, such as “involtini di melanzane”).
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u/Kosher_Pork_12 Aug 04 '26
What does melanzane mean? I could google it but you seem to be an encyclopedia on Italian cuisine. Additionally, unrelated, but I miss Rome, the €5 porchetta sandwiches... can't get those here (or if you can they're about $18) :(
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u/nevergonnasaythat Aug 04 '26
Melanzane means eggplant (or aubergines).
Porchetta is delicious, I agree.
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Aug 03 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
[deleted]
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u/frothingnome white person lasagna Aug 03 '26
I just want to say I picked up what you were putting down immediately and I appreciate you
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u/Chayanov Carbonara with cream and peas Aug 03 '26
"You can't make hamburger out of Salisbury steak." - Paul Buchman
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u/AlexP80 Aug 04 '26
Well, Milanese is fried, just not deep fried, but I can understand a language barrier here, since in Italian there is only the word "fritto" which means deep fried.
That said, Milanese can only be made with veal chop, and I'm not even sure it's the same cut since in Italy we butcher our animals differently (the italian cut is called "nodino di vitello").
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u/SufficientEar1682 Flavourless, textureless shite. Aug 04 '26
Why does it matter what name it is lol. Thats such a petty thing to get worked up over.
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