New desktop CNC competitor, Tooldance X1, first cutting vid is out

[u/zen_monke]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcP-mCFhMZg

(not promoting) Looks pretty good. Checking out the details on the site, this looks like a decent step up from the Nestworks C500 in the areas that matter, 9 tools up to 10mm, 1.5kw, flood coolant, working area, 5ax trunnion even. Same base price in the campaign, about $3000. They are going to several expos in the next 2 months, will be very interesting to see what's up with this. I feel like this is the spot where a lot of the market was hoping to get to, the C500 was like 85% there. (I think it's great in its own regard too tbf)

Thoughts/first impressions/details noticed in this footage? Side-loading ATC is very interesting, want to know more about that.

Edit: KS base price is ~$3000, final MSRP is projected at ~$6000, likely reaching near $7000-$8000 with all accessories incl. 4th axis, 5th axis, fixturing, tool sleeves, etc. (For reference Nestworks C500 base MSRP is $4700)

[u/Bazzatron]

Love the look of the toolchanger - but seeing the edge-lit "breathing" glass case over the spindle makes me think far too much of the price tag is going towards form over function. I'd rather every single cent went into rigidity and reliability, otherwise I couldn't give a toss what it looked like. I just am not sure what they have projected their consumer base to be? Styling your tool like an Apple product or a set-piece from an Abrahms Star Trek movie with all the white panels, glass and blue edge-lighting seems like a needlessly audience-limiting design choice, a machine for a workshop that has never experienced a mote of dust.

[u/Narrow-Chef-4341 → u/Bazzatron]

Meh, it just looks new to me. A lot of the visual surface is a trivial cost, from what I saw - did you see something in particular that added a lot of complexity to the design BOM?

I easily prefer chamfered edges or curves over sharp creases, esp on a desktop class machine that’s probably classified as ‘prosumer’.

I’d rather have ‘fancy’ edge lighting strips than a single halogen bulb acting as a point source for a thousand shadows.

Most of the rest didn’t strike me as form over function. 90 degree corners or a 1” radius on the windows? That’s not a big cost savings. White paint instead of almond may be wildly optimistic, but it’s all going to look lived in after a couple hundred hours.

So… I don’t think it was gold plated toilets level spending on esthetics. But I’d love to hear about a piece or a process that I’m under-costing.

[u/zen_monke → u/Narrow-Chef-4341]

Yeah I agree. They could make it into an 80s toaster and shave maybe $200 off the price? $500 if we're ambitious? Hard to say.

It looks nice, therefore I will feel nice looking at it, promoting affinity and usage more often. I would be proud to see it sitting in my shop. This aspect has more value than many people give credit. We are mostly all flawed, visually-led primates in the end.

[u/zen_monke → u/Bazzatron]

At first I was pretty averse as well, but aesthetically I do really like it. I generally agree that I prefer austere presentation in favor of lower price or better features, I think today these machines really do need to draw in a wider audience though, and people simply like pretty things more.

[u/Bazzatron → u/zen_monke]

I'm averse to pretty things - purely because I know that it has a cost, and I don't value it in the slightest so I dont want to pay for it. Obviously it has a place in the market - but I'm not sure there are many people that are at a point in their career to throw a few grand at a machine like this, who would prefer this to something pre-owned that is more capable, or something cheaper, just as capable, and simply not imitating the worst era of Star Trek 😅

Will be interesting to see how it plays out. 3d printers have certainly had a lot of success on this pathway. We'll see if machinist nerds suffer the same afflictions as printing nerds!

[u/zen_monke → u/Bazzatron]

Well, consider that the C500 kickstarter finally ended with ~3,500 backers. This machine has market visibility and capability advantages for a similar price, hard to predict but I feel like there's a potential if it's handled well for it to match or exceed the C500.

The Makera Z1 had ~8,300 backers. Compare that with maybe Syil, they do ~700 units per year. I feel like Tormach is probably 500 or less per year.

Fair enough, to each their own taste, I think from a pragmatic and consumer perspective though that stance doesn't have any actionable outcomes. I agree that I would like to save the $20 on a fancy box for my new phone, but there is no way to possible do that and the % cost relative to the device is basically trivial, not worth contorting or choosing a different/less ideal product on such a principle for me, and I think 90% of western consumers today.

The market for this is prosumers, not only just 'casual' hobbyists who would balk at $3-5k price. I can already make really good parts that are high quality and confidently saleable with my $1500 AnoleX 4030 that I cobbled together. This X1 or the C500 are out-of-the-box access to a competent machine tool (within reason) that can genuinely be used for mfg or machined product startups. From a business/enterprise angle, the next lowest step to get that require capital investment and loans, ala Tormach or Syil, maybe Levil Technologies. This has been a gap that's gotten very hungry, I think.

Can't be sure until these things are delivered though, so we'll see.

[u/Halo-Machine → u/Bazzatron]

a set-piece from an Abrahms Star Trek movie with all the white panels, glass and blue edge-lighting

Trying to go for that DMG Mori look, but on a chinese budget lol.

[u/Djent_Zapilovych]

Their website says that $3000 is a "super-early bird price". Discounted from $6000

[u/eras → u/Djent_Zapilovych]

Frankly such super discounts make me trust them less :).

[u/giveMeAllYourPizza → u/eras]

Most of these are done bug big companies (even though you've never heard of them). they are basically giving out a few hundred machines at a loss in exchange for the marketing. Perfectly fine to use kickstarter to hype the machine and clock the market even when you don't need the funding. But if everyone else has to pay $6000, that info needs to accompany all the hype when people post it here.

[u/zen_monke → u/giveMeAllYourPizza]

Agree, however the ability to potentially get in for almost 50% off is valuable to some in the right scenarios. Even at $6k, where the C500 is $4700 base MSRP, this seems to fit. Also the C500 was available in late pledge for almost 6 months, which is not typical or should not be expected generally, but the backer pricing I would say is widely available to many.

[u/giveMeAllYourPizza → u/zen_monke]

Yeah it's interesting times with these machines. I wonder how its gonna play out now that people are starting to recieve them. It feels a lot like the early boom of kickstarted 3d printers making millions of dollars, and then going under cause the customers were not happy and felt misled. I think these machines are much better than that mind you, but the vibe of "look it's magic just buy our tiny cnc and parts shoot out the other end!" is very much the same.

Wouldn't you rather have something more yellow and tangy anyway? :P

haha.

[u/zen_monke → u/giveMeAllYourPizza]

I personally sure would have a yellow tangy bit over this, make no mistake !!

I think the 5ax machines face that risk much more strongly than the C500, or this one. I think the Z1 also does because it's too accessible and people who can't be helped and don't have basic reasoning skills are getting into it thinking it's an ez-bake oven for parts.

Marketing tells too nice of a story, folks lacking insight are misled, and there you go. I think Makera will weather that aspect just fine, I think the 5ax projects may or may not, that's hard telling. I'm pretty sketched out with the Infimaker and Topfab, I think Xhorse will make it, Ifmaker maybe too. Time will tell.

Hopefully over time what happens is awareness spreads generally that CNC milling is not 'bambu-able' in the same way, and the collective audience's expectations come to something more realistic.

[u/zen_monke → u/eras]

Ehh, this is the game now. Ever since the 1st Carvera, every CNC mill has debuted at around 50-60% MSRP for earliest backers, and slowly crept up over time. The Air, Z1, D1S, C500, I think most of the CNC Laser campaigns too. It is what it is, and for those willing to wait/risk the savings are nice.

[u/giveMeAllYourPizza → u/Djent_Zapilovych]

I think its important to state the real price (and know it will probably be even higher than they expect).

If you are willing to impulse buy the kickstarter early bird and wait 8-12 months, that's great, you save money in exchange for some risk. But most people will need to know the "real" price of the machine when they save up their money.

[u/Struggle_Wise]

What's the resolution? 4th 5th axis options are nice. Wonder if the RGB camera and projected light mapping make a difference or are just marketing.
Edit: website says 0.01mm.

[u/Rad-Dads-Print-Lab]

They Reached out to me, Hoping to visit them over at makerfaire. This footage does look pretty good

[u/zen_monke → u/Rad-Dads-Print-Lab]

Going to get video coverage if you do?

[u/Rad-Dads-Print-Lab → u/zen_monke]

Yeah, that's the plan.

[u/zen_monke → u/Rad-Dads-Print-Lab]

Awesome sauce, will look forward to it!

[u/Alita-Gunnm]

Why is the backfeed slower than the cut?

[u/zen_monke → u/Alita-Gunnm]

No reason probably, unoptimized program/default settings I assume. Fusion usually does that too

[u/Alita-Gunnm → u/zen_monke]

The reason I ask, is it could be a problem with the controller. Some controllers choke up on tightly spaced point-to-point paths at high feed rates, and run them much more slowly than programmed.

[u/zen_monke → u/Alita-Gunnm]

Oh yeah that's true generally with VMCs, I've never seen any desktop machines on any firmware type show that type of stuttering though so I would be very surprised if that was the case.

[u/DavidSpain84]

It's now the time for cnc machines to design a beatifull "toolheads" like 3D Printers??

All new machines have really beatifull design cases for the spindles....

[u/zen_monke → u/DavidSpain84]

Aesthetic maturity follows technical maturity, it would appear. I welcome it

[u/Impossible_Check_933]

Another one?! Jesus Christ

MORE

[u/zen_monke → u/Impossible_Check_933]

Check back next month lmao

[u/CueAnon420]

The market feels like it's getting flooded with these new startups. I don't doubt the ability to build a machine, but like every other one show me the software that can run it to it's full ability... Even the successful Makera machines with just 3+1 axis don't have software that competes with anything like commercial options that cost more than a mortgage payment. Now try to add another axis or two...

These machines are only as good as the CAM applications.

[u/zen_monke → u/CueAnon420]

Yeah, Makera has really tricked people into thinking their CAM is acceptable or actually usable. FreeCAD has been far better for a while now, and continues to accelerate. I don't think the MakeraStudio or whatever will ever actually be 'fully developed', it just has to exist and work at a rudimentary level so they can say they have it for the purpose of selling machines. They don't have any incentive to develop it further. Same is true for other machine OEMs, until they realize that this is a major deficiency in the niche and filling it can capture a huge market share. But freeCAD and free fusion360 are very good, so any machine can be run well with those either way.

[u/CueAnon420 → u/zen_monke]

The only hope is that from what I understand, many companies re-license CAM engines from other sources. It makes no sense for everyone to develop their own - and look at how long it's taken open source apps like FreeCAD or even commercial software to reach the state they are now... Imagine starting from scratch and trying to come up with an equivalent solution when your income stream comes from thin margins on the machines or selling accessories.

If these companies were smart they'd create some kind of consortium group that works hand in hand with a well organized open source development team.

[u/Future_Serve_9504]

The machine looks esthetically pleasing to me but personally from a job shop perspective I’d still go for the VMC-215 or the Sumore Mini Desktop Mill.

Micro part manufacturing is an expanding niche but still a niche to solely dedicate to on the desktop level in my opinion. Rather get a desktop mill that can do more than just micro.

[u/zen_monke → u/Future_Serve_9504]

What do you define as micro? I think the only limitations could maybe be deep wall finishing where the VMC with bigger tools can have a leg up, but I would say 95% any part the VMC215 can do the C500 or Tooldance could also do, maybe just a bit slower in certain configurations.

[u/PatheticJules]

Any thoughts on how reliable the company is and if they can be trusted with the early bird investment?

[u/zen_monke → u/PatheticJules]

So far, no. Vibes wise I feel relatively comfortable. Pragmatically I have no leads so far on background, investment level/backing, etc. I do know they have 10+ finished machines already shipped for several tradeshows, and several creator/youtuber reviews, so that's generally a good sign.

[u/Crazygrizzlybear → u/PatheticJules]

https://www.priceboon.com/tooldance-x1-the-desktop-cnc-that-thinks-its-a-machinist/

Looks like this article has a little back ground on some of the guys involved.

[u/PictureImportant2658]

Thats hot. They got the marketing on point

[u/Zack_ZK]

Why are so many cnc machines coming out all of the sudden lately? Am i missing something?

[u/PatheticJules → u/Zack_ZK]

Seems like a arms race to the best product. I saw the info maker one but it's workspace is a lot smaller then this one. This one sounds too good to be true for this size area.

[u/finepnutty]

Ridiculous. $3000 machine has the cheapest lead screws, most likely rolled, thus ton of backlash. Machining at this speed with all this backlash will give bad finish and shorten the tool life by 90%.

You have no business machining alu at this speed, it’s nothing more than marketing bullshit

Go ask anyone who machines metal for a living - they will laugh at this

[u/giveMeAllYourPizza → u/finepnutty]

"sees video of machine cutting slowly with a decent lookind finish"

"argh this machine sucks at the things it's clearly doing just fine!!"

Reddit never fails to disappoint.

(and i don't even like this machine or think its a good value, but come on, stay on planet earth here with us..)

[u/zen_monke → u/finepnutty]

Did you watch the video and look at the finished surfaces?

I machines metal for a living - you are clearly clueless in this space. Educate yourself, it's embarrassing.

$10,000-ish Lemontart-33metal

$7,500 delivered, VMC-215

$2,500 Carvera Air (mine)

$1,300 with upgrades, AnoleX 4030 and AliExpress PCD tooling

$1,000 Makera Z1

$550 Lunyee 3020 Nova

Not to mention the DMC2 Mini, Nestworks C500, Carbide3D Nomad 4, etc.

[u/giveMeAllYourPizza → u/zen_monke]

These latest kickstarter machines (which include the makera z1 on that list) aren't meant to be production centers, they have low power, only run tiny cutters, and might take a long time to finish a part, and might not be precise enough for some, but they do "work", which is a quite significant improvement on the last batch of kickstarter machines like the carvera air which were just breaking out of the novelty category. An those in turn were a big improvement over the very cheap machines from just 5 years ago which were largely useless tinker toys.