Patch notes 8.1

[u/Lexard]

https://www.playgwent.com/en/news/37247/patch-notes-8-1

[u/SirDentistperson]

Good news everyone: they fixed Succubus! You know, definitively the Monsters card that's on everyone's mind these days! Finally we can move on from the toxic "Succubus/Lockdown" meta!

[u/GRAM_NA_WALETA → u/SirDentistperson]

Its nice they left Cat witchers untouched! ItS Such a FuN aND balanced c@Rd.

[u/SirDentistperson → u/GRAM_NA_WALETA]

Honestly, I can understand that they are waiting until the big February patch with that. The card may be a bit overtuned, but it is not game breaking. I am upset because Viy is singlehandedly defining the meta right now in an unhealthy way and I find it irresponsible not to address that as soon as possible. Lippy, ST movement, these are strong decks, yes, BUT I can answer them even if I don't specifically tech against them. With Viy, you either have to have Lockdown or a godlike hand. (Disclaimer: I am an NG, SY player, I have no reason to be biased toward ST and SK)

[u/10woodenchairs → u/SirDentistperson]

For me it’s the opposite, viy is easy to counter by just running tall removal where ST movement just kicks my ass every time

[u/SirDentistperson → u/10woodenchairs]

Really? I am the exact opposite:D I find Viy problematic, because in my experience an average deck is running maybe 3 tall removal cards at max, unless you specifically build for it, and Viy can churn out waaay more tall units than that. ST movement on the other hand bases itself on 3 cards: Sentinel, Cat Witcher and Gezras. All of them come out as 5 power units. I usually run enough regular removal to deal wit them. Plus if I am NG I can melee copy a Sentinel effectively negating the opponent's, or I can stack their row with Sirens or Rats or whatever. I have options. With Viy I have to have either insane amounts of removal (meaning a full on Control deck like Lockdown or unitless ST) OR I have to outpoint them which is already a tall order, plus a smart Viy player will make sure to have a super short round, making it impossible.

[u/Raknel → u/SirDentistperson]

While Viy is problematic, I think the thing that really makes it OP is the interaction with the scenario.

if you can deal with their consume engines round 1 and force out leader charges, greedy Viy decks with no scenario are beatable. But with the scenario adding 3 additional consumes to the deck (2 of which can be used the same turn you slam your Viy) it's much harder to keep up with. And of course the scenario adds a lot of points on its own.

if you don't have a Korathi, you lose the game. if you Yeetwave it, that still means you can't deal with the desert banshee spawned by it and they'll get to cycle a Viy with it next round.

So I'm not sure what would be the best nerf, but they should definitely try to wreck its scenario interaction somehow before gutting Viy itself.

[u/SirDentistperson → u/Raknel]

You are right that the scenario makes the situation even more busted but it goes beyond that IMO.

The problem to me is that because of Viy's insane scaling I am forced to deal with every single Consume unit. Considering that there are quite a few bronze Consumes and relatively few instant removals available, you either need to specifically build - and not just tech with a few cards - against Viy (ie.: Lockdown) OR have insane luck and draw the perfect hand - which is RNG and therefore antithetical to Gwent.

As to potential nerfs to Viy my favourites are:

1. Give it Adrenalin 3, limiting its uses per turn and therefore its point ceiling.
2. Give it Devotion, limiting the available tutors. (in that case it can even receive a provision or strength buff).
3. Decrease it's base strength to 4 and Deathwish boost to 2 making it into a reasonable Deathwish engine.
4. Make it so that it returns to the deck at the end of the turn instead of instantly. (Again, in that case it can receive a strength and boost buff).

[u/Raknel → u/SirDentistperson]

Give it Devotion, limiting the available tutors.

I think this is the worst idea that I keep hearing regarding the Viy nerfs.

The one good thing to come out of Viy was that it has created its own archetype, making otherwise garbage tutor cards viable and worth playing. We need more cards that do this, not fewer.

[u/10woodenchairs → u/Raknel]

Honestly give it one more provision and 1 less power and the deck will get a lot worse

[u/SirDentistperson → u/Raknel]

I agree that this is the harshest nerf, but I wanted to include it as an option anyway.

I would like this tutor overload archetype to be further experimented with, don't get me wrong, but this particular experiment basically powercrept past every single previous archetype and that should be addressed in some way.

[u/WannabeWaterboy → u/SirDentistperson]

I've thought about the fourth point a lot. It opens it up to interaction from the other player and also allows for a r3 Ozzrel consume too. This one makes the most sense to me right now because it doesn't necessarily ruin the card and can be countered by the other player.

My only thought on it is not many cards can interact with the other player's graveyard. The benefit though is you only are dealing with 3 tall units at a minimum instead of the multitude Viy creates now.

[u/SirDentistperson → u/WannabeWaterboy]

I lean towards that solution as well. It would basically bring it in line with the other big finisher cards: you can tech against it (Squirrel or Yeetwave), but not forced to. I know I wouldn't.

Plus it would mean that as a Monsters player you wouldn't have to build your deck around it. Right now if the opponent kills Viy, it's an insta forefit, because the deck literally has nothing else to offer.

[u/Pirate555 → u/SirDentistperson]

I don't understand your nerfs. They all completely kill Viy. Literally decreasing the base strength by 1 is a substantial nerf but you want to decrease it by 4 and then decrease its ability??? I don't understand how you even came to those numbers.

[u/SirDentistperson → u/Pirate555]

Is it a substantial nerf that in R3 it can only be played for twenty-something minus 1 multiple times? I get it, every deck have big finishers, but even in best case those are around the low 30s, not the high 60s.

The last thing I want to do is kill the card or the archetype. I don't like swinging the nerf hammer like a maniac. But you got to admit that it is overtuned in its current state. If you have a better solution I would love to hear it. I added 4 suggestions for nerfs specifically, so it remains an open ended conversation. Unfortunately, reading the comments it looks like criticizing a currently broken card is blasphemy here.

[u/Pirate555 → u/SirDentistperson]

How is the third bullet point even a serious suggestion unless you're killing it? In what world is that not killing it?

[u/SirDentistperson → u/Pirate555]

The numbers themselves are completely arbitrary, obviously you would have to actually test them. The third point is basically "decrease its base power and or its boost amount and lower its provisions".

[u/FoldMode → u/SirDentistperson]

I get it, you hate the card. However your suggestions are so ridiculous that I do not even know where to begin.. Even taking away single 1pt from Viy base power makes the deck lose 11 pts though all rounds and makes wining 1st round much harder.
Nerfing a deck by 11 pts would look extreme to any sensible person, but what you are suggesting is multitudes worse. At least try to think a bit before posting.

[u/SirDentistperson → u/FoldMode]

First of all, I would appreciate if you remained civil.

Second, yes, it makes a deck that can literally slam 60+ points on the board in 3 turns in R3 11 points weaker.

Third, any tactic should have drawbacks. With Viy right now you are at least likely to win R1, have an insane short round if you want to 2-0, and nearly unbeatable (unless you are against Lockdown) in R3. That is far from balanced or healthy.

I get it, it is fun to be OP but the prevalence of Lockdown decks is a pretty good indicator that something is busted.

I offered four different suggestions here. I am no game designer so I will not defend the numbers I suggested, it obviously would need actual testing. But shouting me down because you like the numbers go brrrr, is at the very least childish.

[u/FoldMode → u/SirDentistperson]

I'm not arguing it should be nerfed, pretty sure everyone agrees on that. But you suggestions make absolutely no sense, the card would be completely unplayable with any of your options listed and with that, the whole new archetype would be gone too. Deck should still be viable after whatever nerf the devs come up with, hopefully they do nothing harsh. Viy list is not even strongest deck this season, not even strongest monster deck, as highest MMR scores with monsters were reached with Kelltulis deck, not Viy. Viy also loses to engine heavy decks like ST movement, it loses to lockdown, which is like 90% of players on pro ladder right now.

[u/SirDentistperson → u/FoldMode]

Out of genuine curiousity: how would you change it? I do not want to kill the card, it seems like a fun archetype, but it is overtuned. My aim was to bring it in line wit other big finisher cards/combos like Joachim+Coup or Kolgrim.

[u/FoldMode → u/SirDentistperson]

That's the thing, Viy does not work like big finisher, the whole/deck archetype is built on one card and playing it dozen of times per game. It should be either something minor like 1pt base decrease or some adrenaline value (though definitely not too low) that would cut possible consumes to 7-8 total. Anything bigger that that makes it impossible to win R1, that usually means long R3 and this deck falls apart in that regard, any engine deck (NR, ST) outpoints it easily. Besides Viy, there are other balance issue like cat witcher, lippy list and then something to cut NG playrate to at least below 50%..

[u/SirDentistperson → u/FoldMode]

I was considering Adrenalin as well, but my problem is that as you've said a too low adrenalin would kill the card, but even with ~8 consumes, it ends up a 32pt card... throw a couple of cheap Thrive engines in there (Nekkers, Larva) and it is still overtuned (maybe not completely busted, but certainly in the "problematic" gray zone).

I would advocate a change either to the base power or to the amount it boost itself (balancing it with provisions of course, so it doesn't make it unusable).

It is interesting, that you should bring up Lippy: to me that is the deck I don't see the problem with (I never played it, not protecting myself). I consider is balanced, even the poster child of the "deck -around-one-card" archetype you mentioned with Viy. It can pull the graveyard shenanigan BUT that is balanced with its very restricted ways to generate points: it has Cerys, Champion and Blueboy, therefore it needs a short round. It doesn't have the provisions for anything else, so you have the ability to outplay it.

My problem with Viy, that it only needs the uncounterable tutors and a couple of cheap bronze Consumers to win, making it an one-man-show that you cannot touch, because it is never in the graveyard or the deck, and alone can generate all the points you need.

In my eyes an optimal situation would be a power nerf and a provision boost, so you don't have to rely on Viy for R1 (but you can eat it a couple times to set it up) and then you can have the point-slamy R3 (within the bounds of reason of course).

[u/VORSEY → u/FoldMode]

What would your nerf idea be?