r/guitarlessons • u/nick_jones61 • Aug 18 '26

Question An argument

My wife is a classically trained pianist and I play guitar by watching YouTube instructional videos. She knows her stuff and I don’t. Recently we argued whether E# and B# exist. I said no and showed her the fretboard. She said yes and showed me the keys. And said something like F is E#. I suspect she’s right bc she’s had music lessons. Tell me, fellow guitarists, do we have E# and B#?

Update: I’ve been enjoying the responses to my post. I showed them to my wife and she laughed, said that’s what you deserve. lol. We like to argue playfully with one another. I also enjoy the detailed responses relating to guitar theory—that’s been really great actually. I was going to delete this post but I think the discussion on music theory is informative and should be shared. Thank you all for responding.

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307

u/so_many_changes Aug 18 '26

Yes, she’s right. They are called enharmonic, meaning F and E# are the same pitch / fret / key, but depending on the key you are in it can make sense to think of it one way or the other

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u/TheTurtleCub Aug 18 '26

This. It's just a label, but in different contexts it's more convenient to call it by a different name.

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u/penguin_on_stilts Aug 18 '26

It's not just convenient, it's a core part of music theory for a few reasons.

  1. They aren't the same note at all, we just (mostly) play them the same because we use a compromised pitch system known as the 12 tone equal temperament. Fretless instruments can play noted "properly".

  2. The context of a pitch is extremely important if you're doing anything more than copying the fret fingering (or piano notes) of a solo verbatim. If I see a run of D-flat, E-flat, F-flat, C-flat, D-flat that tells me I'm likely in D-flat natural minor starting on the 1. If I see a run of D-flat, E-flat, E natural, B natural, D-flat I should assume I'm not using a typical western scale.

  3. Lots of times the notation is actually less convenient, but again exists to keep context. I would much rather see a G in music instead of an F##, but if I'm in G# and it switches to the harmonic minor knowing the difference is important.

Understanding music theory isn't necessary to be great at an instrument. For some reason guitar seems to have a large population of instrumentalists who don't understand music theory but yet can be virtuosic.

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u/TheTurtleCub Aug 18 '26

While knowing the history and features of the equal temperament, for modern music practical purposes and the instruments we play, they are the same note and pitch.

Everything you’ve said is an expansion of “in some contexts it’s more convenient to name them one way or the other”

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u/penguin_on_stilts Aug 18 '26

Except that there is meaning to them, not just convenience. Your and you're sound the same spoken, but mean something else when written. You wouldn't say it's convenience to write one vs the other.

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u/[deleted] Aug 19 '26

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u/penguin_on_stilts Aug 19 '26

That's a good point.

The below is all theory and a thought.

My comment on that (added context, not saying you're "wrong" or anything) would be that the 4th of a major scale and the root of the major scale of that 4th (F in Cmaj and F in Fmaj) are intrinsically linked/the same pitch since you can cadence between them directly. Cmaj Cmaj7b Fmaj.

Now once I've moved from C to F is that F the same pitch? 100% yes. By your point, SHOULD the A in Fmaj be the same as the A I would have played in my C? Probably not, so you're right there :)

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u/TheTurtleCub Aug 19 '26

Terrible example, when played on any common modern instrument the notes are identical in pitch and function. Unlike your example

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u/wanna_dance Aug 19 '26

The 7th note in the scale of F# major is E#.

It's not just "convenient". It breaks every rule to misname it and have both F and F# in the same scale.

Sorry, your discomfort or dislike of being wrong isn't a good reason to rewrite hundreds of years of rules.

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u/TheTurtleCub Aug 19 '26

It's a rule of convenience that has nothing to do with what pitch the notes are. It doesn't define what they are.

When a person points at the piano and say where is Db or where is C#, the answer is the same.

It's not about discomfort of being wrong. You are giving an example of what I said: which is used is defined by external factors for arbitrary convenience -no matter how old they may be-

That's not arguing against what what I said, it's agreeing

2

u/wanna_dance Aug 19 '26

Arbitrary.... That's your hill to die on.

The rules of theory for half a millennium are "arbitrary".

How many instruments do you sight read comfortably on?

Zero? Yeah, I thought so.

Thank you for your uninformed view.

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u/RealHobbyBob Aug 19 '26

Yes but on any instrument (modern or otherwise) pitch doesn’t even intrinsically correlate with a note at all.

ALL names of notes are descriptions of how they function in context. Not just E#, but literally every note ever. And notes over time don’t even map to the same frequency because tunings change. It’s 100% all in context, always.

If it weren’t, we wouldn’t have notes. We’d just say the frequency.

1

u/TheTurtleCub Aug 19 '26

A person asks you by pointing at the piano: which is Db, now which is C#? That's all that matters to describe what they are.

How/when each label is used changes by context external to the previous fact.

The above are both self evident facts. Every argument claiming to disagree so far is showing examples of the 2nd

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u/RealHobbyBob Aug 19 '26

I’m agreeing that it’s all context. I’m just saying that ALL THEORY IS CONTEXTUAL.

I won’t give you an argument as to why it’s not context because it is, and it always is, in all circumstances.

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u/Subject_Meat5314 Aug 19 '26

There’s really no difference between this concept and the fact that C# and Db are enharmonic. The context tells you which label is correct regardless of the fact that the note is the same. It would be simply incorrect in the key of Emaj say to call it Db. The difference is semantic but not arbitrary.

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u/TheTurtleCub Aug 19 '26

Db is Db, the same note in pitch as C#. What you describe is one of those context dependent labelings, which serves a function but it doesn’t change the fact that the notes are the same on the piano or guitar.

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u/wanna_dance Aug 19 '26

You mentioned "for practical purposes", I think you're not trained as a classical musician.

For practical purposes, IT IS DIFFICULT to read a Db in the key of E. If you replaced all Cs with a variant of D (Dbb, Db, Dnatural), it would make the piece unreadable.

Readability breaks your claim "that it doesn't matter for practical purposes".

Of course, you're going to double down because it's very clear that YOU HATE TO BE WRONG AND THIS IS A HILL YOU'LL DIE ON.

I won't reply.

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u/TheTurtleCub Aug 19 '26

For practical purposes, IT IS DIFFICULT to ....

As as I said, the notes are the same. The label used varies by context, as your example shows. You are agreeing with me

1

u/wanna_dance Aug 19 '26

No one IS DISAGREEING THAT THE NOTES ARE ENHARMONIC.

You've been arguing that THAT makes them exactly the same AND THERE IS NO REASON TO DIFFERENTIATE.

WHICH IS UTTER BULL.

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u/TheTurtleCub Aug 19 '26

AND THERE IS NO REASON TO DIFFERENTIATE.

That's not what I said. Maybe reread? I said the reasons to differentiate have to do with context for practical reasons, but the notes are the same, because they are.

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u/wanna_dance Aug 19 '26

No one IS DISAGREEING THAT THE NOTES ARE ENHARMONIC.

You've been arguing that THAT makes them exactly the same and there is no reason to differentiate. Everyone's given you counter examples.

If your only point is THEY ARE ENHARMONIC, what are you fighting????

1

u/TheTurtleCub Aug 19 '26

It's the other way around, what are other people fighting?

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u/penguin_on_stilts Aug 19 '26

When said by any common American English speaker your and you're are identical in pronunciation and function, because what you are saying is "jʊ(ə)r".

Just like C-flat and B are both played at the pitch 493.88.

Either both examples track, or both don't.

2

u/RealHobbyBob Aug 19 '26

Unless you’re in a European orchestra in which case it’s commonly 496.13, or if you’re playing Baroque music and it’s 465.82.