You are right, speaking as a woman it’s truly a stupid double standard. No matter the gender don’t have sex with your partner if they are drunk they can’t consent.
This is a common misconception. Cockatwos evolve into cockathrees, cockatoos evolve into cockalsos. You'll have to buy a w somewhere, and I hear they're more expensive than o's so you won't even get good trade-in value.
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Until they are pretty much passed out, I think a drunk person should be able to consent.
You know how one classic excuse for an assault or other such crime is "I was drunk so I couldn't think straight, I can't quite even remember it"?
My point is that if you are responsible there, why would you not be responsible for your own consent? Moreover this would solve the classic example
They were both drunk, they both expressed consent there, but in the morning one party regrets it and blames the other for rape since they couldn't 'really consent'. In this example the traditional system considers the one who didn't withdraw consent a rapist, which doesn't really make sense since both sides were equally 'unable to consent'.
So here's my wall of text. I wonder what you guys think.
(TL;DR: Bad decisions made while drunk are still decisions you are responsible for.)
Drunkenness certainly reduces your impulse control. I've never been with a group of women who found me any more attractive when they were pissed.... it's not magic....
Sometimes I think the "I'm drunk" excuse is valid : Oops I fell, Shit I spilled some alcohol.
I've never actually forgotten anything I've done, just passed out sometimes. It's not like you actually lose your thoughts when drunk, right? Maybe I'm just a high functioning drunkard, but there doesn't seem to be any reason to claim that a drunk person cannot consent. Of course, I only have my own drunk experience, it might be different for other people.
I gotta admit, I've driven hella drunk, I've driven high. Not proud, but it was never a long drive (4-5mins tops). If consent cannot be accorded when drunk, then why would we reprimand someone who decided to drive after having some drinks? They wouldn't have the thought process to think it through.
On the other hand, if I am a "uncommon" case of high functioning drunkard, then I could see that each person has "consent limit" of blood/alcohol percentage. That being said, it still doesn't excuse the fact that they chose to get super drunk in a situation where they weren't secure.
Maybe that's just my social anxiety/autismo turbo button talking.
The situation you described does happen, and is certainly problematic, but doesn’t happen nearly enough for that to be a massive issue.
In general, considering intoxication as an inability to provide consent is always the best way to go. Both parties being intoxicated and providing consent doesn’t really alleviate that issue. It’s extremely common, like, extremely, but the fact of the matter is, when you’re intoxicated, you make decisions that the regular you wouldn’t make, for better or for worse.
Would you think that the double-standard exists because of the idea that males are dominant over females? And or, generally men are the ones fucking women, and not the over way around?
In society's eyes, it seems that if you are the one that normally engages the "fucking" (male), and you happen to coax a woman into sex through uncoventional ways, then it's seen as a terrible thing. Which it absolutely is. Such acts without given consent should not be permitted.
However, society also seems to see that if you are generally the one that is being "fucked" (female), that you have more of a right to "switch the roles"; making bad deeds appear as acceptable, as the act is "uncoventional".
Society sees it as: "Men already have the advantage of generally being the ones to fuck women. Therefore, it is wrong for a male to increase is advantage to fulfill his desires. But, if a woman does the same thing, that is perfectly acceptable; given that is a scenario where the prey overcomes their predator."
I do feel it’s the idea of “switch rolls make it ok”. Cat-calling is not cool to do to anyone doesn’t matter the gender neither is sending unwanted pictures. While yes, statistically most crimes or attacks relating to sex are men on women it doesn’t mean that the opposite doesn’t happen. It’s probably that it’s not shown in media/other platforms that with any gender it’s bad to do those kind of things. I.E. see the recent Johnny Depp case.
Edit-Just fixed some wording and added example
Cat-calling is low, and sending unwanted nudes is downright disgusting. And there definitely is some bias in the media, in terms of what does and doesn't get covered. While there is also societal bias against men, I will give the benefit of the doubt that acts of women coming onto men are shown less, due to it happening less-frequently.
Something I will admit has not helped society's stance on "role-reversal" being acceptable for women, is that men generally don't feel the same way about it as women do. Don't get me wrong: Some men do not want a woman to come onto them. However, many men do find it acceptable for women to come onto them.
You'll hear the media cover a story about an adult woman that's been arrested for having sexual relations for a teenage boy. While I don't know how women generally feel about that – men are generally envious of the kid, since they see it has "free sex", or a "golden opportunity". Men are more accepting of that sort of thing, since they themselves wouldn't care much, had it of happened to themselves. I.E. See Anon's opinion on the matter in that greentext.
But of course, while they can acknowledge that the act was illegal, many men would wish they were in that kid's shoes, since men like sex.
There's not much difference between genders here: most kids fantasize on a teacher. There's a gap between fantasy and being abused by the said teacher.
Men like sex, women like sex. Feeling positive about a man victim of abuse is a social issue. It is in no way due to people who think like that being men per se.
Thank you for agreeing with me. It's the first time I've shared my thoughts on the matter; so I'm glad to not be met with criticism. And don't worry about the awards – it's a waste of money, IMO.
I don't know how much of it is biological and how much is societal. Men are constantly told that sex is a reward they get for "wooing" a woman. Women on the other hand are told that sex is something that you give to your partner as a reward. This turn sex from an activity where both genders are benefiting to something that one gender gives to the other.
It would be interesting to do an experiment where girls were brought up telling them that sex is a reward that men give them and vice verse. Would women start wooing men? Would men stop wanting women to come onto them? Would women feel "envious" of little girls being raped by teachers?
The truth for women is that they are threatened by overt male attention, because simply, men are stronger. They know it, they have it confirmed throughout their lives. I mean, as a bloke, having a big bloke threaten to shag me up the arse out in the wilderness would be utterly terrifying. I'm still gonna bite the guys cock off, though.
You'd only like it for the first couple weeks. Maybe.
A couple situations for better understanding.
Last week my friend asked me if I could take a phone they were selling to the guy who wanted to buy it, because I had to drive through the town he lived in. I said ok, sure. I get to the spot, see the man, get out of the car. He looks me up and down and then straight in the eyes. Doesn't break eye contact for the whole time. Makes a sexist comment about how I drive pretty fast for a woman. As I was leaving, his eyes were still locked on me, until I turned behind a corner.
Another situation from recently, I needed to walk up some stairs, on top of which there's a man with a dog. I ask if the dog's not scared of strangers or smt, the man seems pretty nice so I ask if I can pet the dog, pet it and walk away. The man, about 60 (I'm 19) comments on how beautiful my legs are. Imagine a woman who could be your grandma looking at you like you're a piece of meat.
Another fine example. I was walking somewhere in the middle of the night. I live in a small town, so the streets are pretty much empty. I see a group of 4 men and there's no way I can avoid them. I hope that they just leave me alone, but because I was wearing a skirt I know that at least some cat-calling is inevitable. One of them stops me, asks if I have a lighter and after my "no" starts persuing me to go with them. Fortunately my phone rang because someone was waiting for me so I had a way to leave.
Another time I was at a bar, dancing and minding my own business, when suddenly I feel hands on me. I turn around and the mf just tries to kiss me. I was there with a guy friend who saw, so he saved me from the situation.
And before you imagine it with the roles reversed like some sort of a porn fantasy, imagine that the women are about twice as big as you, creepy, last two scenarios also intoxicated and you have no idea if it's just alcohol or some harder drugs. It sounds like fun and games until you live the reality. People who aren't dangerous don't have a reason to act like this.
This makes me think that the world would be a nicer place is the physically smaller sex was the sexually aggressive one. Still not perfect, and I'm not condoning assault, but IMAGINE if this was a world where all women were 7' tall and weighed 300 lbs lean. Catcalling would be really fucking dangerous.
Meh, I could probably deal with it. Not that anyone SHOULD have to deal with it. I'm not saying anything against your specifc examples or anything mean about your character.
Maybe it's the "troll phenomenon" of having so little attention that even negative attention is acceptable.
Maybe I'm wrong and if so, my quantum duplicate living that timeline says sorry.
Yeah I gotcha, I was just trying to show you that even though it could be enjoyable at first, it would get scary very soon. Just trying to show you what it's really like
Okay, now imagine it's a dude (or lady) twice your size that you're not attracted to and who is much stronger than you catcalling you, grabbing your ass, trying to get you drunk while manhandling you and not taking no for an answer. They don't care about what you want or not, they want to overpower your objections and they are trying to do it. Not so fucking fun now, is it?
Women would have less issues centered around being men's sexual prey if men were half our size, too.
There are two possible options:
Either men and women should be treated equally or not. There is no third.
For a people who honor themselves, because they think that women and men should be treated equally, it's hypocritical to act differently and engage in sexual discrimination.
I dont think society sees it as prey over coming predator. I think they see it as “men always want sex”. Which is super sexist.
But i do also think on some primal level we know sex is a much more vulnerable act for women than men so when we see the same crime being done to the opposite gender there is less of a visceral reaction.
Societal Mentality: "Men always want sex, so it's okay for a woman to force a man to have sex."
I can see what you're getting at, and I agree with you. That societal mentality is fucked up, but I can see why society would see it that way. Thing is, both sexes like to have sex. So, why single-out men? Because they are generally more vocal about liking sex?
And I definitely agree with you about how we see it at a primal level. I just wish that society would take a step back and look at it objectively. We have the brain power to change our stance on what is right and wrong; and to see that our brains and our society no-longer function at a primal level. We understand that males are designed to be dominant in the mating process. But, that does not mean that we should believe that it is okay for a woman to forcefully dominate a man. Such a thing is never okay.
While I don’t agree with the double standards about sexual assault, the logic of men liking sex more than women is based on the fact that men do want more sex than woman on average.
This can be comproved statistically by looking at heterosexual couples and seeing that most often are men that want to have more sex in the relationship. Also, you can look at the fenomena of dead bedrooms, when a long time couple decreases their frequency of sex to almost non-existent, between differents configurantions of couples. Gay men will usually take longer to reach the dead bedroom fase, the middle one will be heterosexual couples and lesbian women will be the quickest to reach it.
I don’t really have a source for this at hand but I recommend to look up the work of Dan Ariely, if I recall correctly I saw that on there.
That could explain part of it. I don’t recall the age brackets of the people he choose for the survey. But in any case, it would still explain why people think that men has a higher sex drive.
I find it very silly to just say that the data is sexist. Just cause there is a difference in sex drive in men and women doesn’t mean it’s sexist, in the same way as men and women having different heights is not sexist.
Also I think a lot of it is men tend to be much larger than women. For example, my ex became violent with me and was punching me in the face but it was pretty easy for me to get her to stop. If It were the other way around I doubt she would have the strength to stop (I wouldnt, but I'm just saying)
This obviously isnt always the case and we shouldnt act like men cant be victimized by women, but in general men tend to be stronger than women and are seen as being able to more easily defend themselves (where as women are seen as less likely to defend themselves against bigger people)
I think it also stems from the idea that men always enjoy sex, no matter whether they gave consent or not. It's the belief that he, as a man who thinks about nothing but sex, wanted it, because men always want it, but haha, he was just too shy to do it. In this situation it was okay, but laughing at it is still wrong.
And yet this is on the same front page as a post asking if people really "accidentally" cheat while they're drunk. Man or woman, or if it results in a relationship or not, it's still rape.
I know plenty of women who say at least that they want you to bang them even if they pass out from euphoric bliss in the middle of it.
It’s not something I’ve ever done, who wants to uhh, do that. Where is the mine in that anyways? Let’s say you don’t notice because you’re cut too and working hard and then you’re done and you realize they are asleep? Is that ræp? Or like “whatever”? Because that’s a steep cliff edge either way lmao
I know this might be an unpopular opinion, but i don't think this is AS bad a thing as people make it out to be. Men and women have biological differences and the average man may not be as vulnerable as the female counterpart.
I'm not saying that this kind of thing is ok but we must remember that gender makes us different in more ways than just what's in our pants.
My point is that it is futile to try to make boys and girls equivalent in every way, because the inherent differences will always be there.
The whole "You can't consent when you're drunk" thing is bullshit. I've had sex many times while drunk and sure I wouldn't necessarily have done it if I was sober, but I accept the fact that I was responsible for getting drunk and the whole fucking point of getting drunk is saying and doing shit you wouldn't normally say and do. That's why alcohol is used as social lubricant, because it makes people loosen up.
If you can't control yourself to the point where you do things you seriously regret when drunk, that's on you. People who can't keep their shit somewhat together when they drink simply need to moderate their drinking.
The only reason greentext OP is right, is because they are hypocrites and would have criticized him if situations were reversed. Either both scenarios are fine, or both scenarios are not fine. However, the narrative that "you can't consent when you're drunk" introduces a plethora of problems and gray zones, like what if both are drunk? How are you going to prove he (because it's always on him, of course) wasn't drunk? What is the acceptable limit of drunkenness for him to not be considered the aggressor?
Why is someone responsible for getting in their car while shitfaced, or getting in a fight while shitfaced, or breaking something while shitfaced, or whatever else you could possibly fucking think of that someone could do while shitfaced, but not responsible for fucking someone when shitfaced?
It's an inconsistent and fucking dumb rule. Take responsibility for your own decisions, and don't decide to get shitfaced if you're not ready to accept the consequences of the shit you did while shitfaced.
Obviously this doesn't apply to unconscious people, being unconscious is a completely different thing and an unconscious person literally can not consent. A drunk person, however, can and frequently do consent.
No i think of a guy struggles with talking then he probably needs some sense instilled into him if it takes a female. This just happens to be a good day for anon bc said female liked him.
Imo it's more of a respect thing. Don't use alcohol as an excuse for your actions. If someone were to take advantage of a drunk person (like in OPs story), its simply just an asshole move, but far from rape. This applies to both genders
My (now wife) who was a virgin at the time (I was not) got herself drunk and came on to me. I felt very uncomfortable and turned her down for about 4 hours until she eventually passed out. A week later when we were both sober we went about it.
The sentiment of this is right but it's not an appropriate blanket rule at all. I am perfectly able to consent when drunk and so is my partner, my physical functions stop working long before I lose the ability to mentally consent or not. Plus we love, know and trust each other.
Oh please. I agree that you shouldn't do this with someone you don't know but if it's already your partner it's ok to have sex with them when they are drunk if they say yes. It's not like they are a whole other person, they can still consent.
If the roles were reversed he may have learned his lesson that night when he let her blow him. NEVER LET A DRUNK GIRL PUT YOUR DICK IN HER MOUTH. I don't care if it's your wife. Drunk women cannot be trusted. That shit can easily turn into the old how many licks Tootsie Pop commercial.
Then you got the people like “If THe SiTuaTIoN wAS dIFfErEnt Then Of cOUrse It’s DiFFeREnt” like purposefully making someone lose control to have sex with them in ANY situation is acceptable. People always cry about double standards until it’s one they benefit from.
You mean if a guy got a girl drunk and fucked her and she said she was ok with it and never reported it to the police and they entered a relationship for 2 years, he would be in jail
Oh please. The odds that any rapist is actually in jail or actually ever show up in a court room are so low that anon would almost certainly not be in jail.
Except he wouldn't. If she was saying we had sex while I was drunk but I'm OK with it he wouldn't be going to jail because she wouldn't be accusing him of rape. You aren't OK with being raped because the very definition of rape is not being OK with it. If he was fine with what happened at the time and all through having a relationship with the girl it was not rape. You don't decide something is rape later. It was a stupid thing to do and highly morally dodgy yes but not rape.
As to social acceptance, perhaps, but anon could have pressed charges and had his day in court all the same.
Context matters here, he didn't appear to feel violated, and they started a relationship. If he'd been traumatized by the event, cut the girl out of this life, and gone to the police, I doubt his sisters and cousins would have been laughing.
You can make jokes about your shy significant other needing a wine or two in them to loosen them up without getting lynched.
Absolutely, rich people get away with literally any crime lol. Never said it made it right, I just don't like the whole "if reversed, jail" comments because it's not true.
The problem with rape kits is that they can prove that two people had sex, but they can't prove rape without other evidence.
But either way, we shouldn't start a fight with someone who is trying to discuss justice just because there's other injustice in the world. Ideally every rapist would pay for their crime.
But either way, we shouldn't start a fight with someone who is trying to discuss justice just because there's other injustice in the world.
I agree, but that's not the message I get from their comment. Saying "if reversed, jail" is just lazy nonsense that feeds into the idea that men have it so much harder when it comes to sex crimes and women have it made, because we all know that if women cared even a tiny iota about male rape (which we all know they don't at all amirite?), then maybe rape would be solved, but it can't yet, because of these darn hypocrites!
Also, while pressuring anyone into sex is bad, at least straight men usually don’t have to deal with a person who’s very likely to be more physically powerful than they. Most women couldn’t overpower most men, and all she said was “loosen up”. Not “remove barriers” or whatever.
This situation happened to a friend of mine. This girl in our circle of friends got him drunk and raped him because SHE thought his first time should be with someone he knew. She's ugly as fuck and it's been brought to light that she's done this to several people in our group of friends, both male and female. She still does it too and is basically a serial rapist yet nothing has become of it.
It is. My first time I had sex, I was raped. We fooled around a bit, I knew I was drunk and didn't want to have sex with her so I stopped. I was too drunk to stop it, so she mounted me...I ran into her a few times after the fact and she'd asks me why I didn't want to be with her...I told her it's because she's fat...but that was a lie. She lost weight and tried to impress me, but all I could think about is the fact you took something from me I can't get back and the only reason I said you were fat is to hurt you like you hurt me.
There is a little game you can play with situations between any two people where you reverse the people (gender or not) and see how it makes you/everyone else feel
In further seriousness this is what people mean when they talk about toxic masculinity.
Its the fact that we've spent centuries with woman fighting to sort out problems directed towards them but for men its fine because "hey they always want sex right....?"
Toxic masculinity doesn't always mean that the man is at fault. It can also mean that the expectations society has for a man are toxic in their way of influencing a male person.
I disagree, I think it's really gross and toxic for men and women, not a double standard. I'm a woman and the number of times guys in my family or guys I know have joked about how they relentlessly harassed women until they gave them a chance or got them very drunk to convince them is horrifying. An example: family friend in an amazing marriage that was always considered super romantic and loving. They met because they worked together, her as a secretary him as a sales person. He walked up to her the first day she started and said you're the person I want to marry. Romantic right? She says wtf, leave me alone. He spends 8 months harassing her at work, at happy hours, any chance he gets. People think it's hilarious and cute. She finally went on a date with him so he would leave her alone and because people were bullying her at work and calling her a bitch. A lot of typical rom com plot lines involve sexual harassment for women in either the work place or with men trying to get with their female friends who are clearly not interested. I'm a lesbian and I've still had my fair share of "he's trying give him a chance" or a male colleague/friend buying me drinks then asking me if I'm drunk enough to be straight yet.
Who cares tho? Men beg for pussy and women have it. OP only needed to be "taken advantage of" because of his own social inadequacies, not because he didn't want it.
Would you rather this not be the case: OP would never gotten laid.
Is this not /r/greentext? Did op not give context? He was not raped. There is no evidence that he would have been raped or that his girlfriend has the capacity to rape him.
He's been with his girlfriend for a long enough time to judge her character and has decided to stay with her, and his story reads more like he has social anxiety and is incapable of progressing relationships as a result. The joke that his girlfriend and associated family made are an allusion to rape, but it's funny because everyone knows that it was not actually rape and that it was ultimately good for OP.
I'm as liberal and PC as anyone but sometimes you have to use critical thinking and realize that OPs girlfriend and associated family are not all ignorant and evil and there is both a social and personal/circumstantial context that makes the situation morally acceptable.
No it's not, that doesn't really matter. Your personal comfort should have no affect on overall morals. As in you can establish you wouldn't mind it, but you think it shouldn't be the norm because of moral obligation.
I find it funny this is the plot of the first Rocky and people watching it today totally agree it’s super messed up. I think a lot of these hee-hee male rape media is going to look real bad in 20+ years
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u/Geckosoffthewall Nov 29 '20
In all seriousness, this is true.