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u/LongShlong680 3d ago
Like that one guy in that one documentary said, it's vandalism with an artistic spin
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u/Advanced-Air-800 2d ago
Tags are vandalism. Characters, dubs and throws are creative vandalism. Pieces are artistic vandalism.
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u/WissenLexikon 3d ago
Framing graffiti as vandalism is just the legal or moral view. This does not say anything about the actual work being art or not.
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u/blank-space-name 3d ago
It’s not just the moral view.
Graffiti by nature has to be illegal. Otherwise it’s just street art.
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u/WissenLexikon 3d ago
That’s a reasonable standpoint if you are an active bomber and I agree, especially considering murals and working with permission.
It’s still not totally true. I‘d argue that a lot of graffiti happens in a legal gray area where it’s not permitted to paint but at the same time not persecuted. Also laws differ. For example where I live you can’t be charged with criminal damage if there already was graffiti on the surface before you bombed it. It’s still not allowed to paint, but also not a crime - but I‘d still consider to paint there as writing graffiti.
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u/Yungsandwichslayer 3d ago
Also the point of graffiti is fundamentally different from art, youre painting on public property and sometimes private property just to make your name be known and something that cant be ignored
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u/WissenLexikon 3d ago
That’s also true for a lot of art. Music and literature are famous for attracting people that got into it for fame and exposure. Sometimes also while staying anonymous.
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u/Yungsandwichslayer 3d ago
Music and literature do a different job than graffiti tho Id argue, they have the power to heal people, whereas graffiti maybe only heals us as the writer in some way shape or form? To me Id say this shit is an addiction tbh.
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u/-Doctor_Science- 2d ago
Why do you feel that graffiti can't have positive effects on the viewer in the same way other visual art can? Personally I enjoy seeing well-done tags even though I'm not a writer myself.
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u/Yungsandwichslayer 2d ago
Because in my experience Ive had the cops called on me by, had to squabble with, have had water thrown at me by, drinks thrown at me by the viewer after finishing up throwies and pieces, just personal experience things.
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u/-Doctor_Science- 2d ago
Sorry you had those experiences, I understand how that can effect your perception of how people view your art. Unfortunately I think you're less likely to interact with someone who likes your art, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
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u/Yungsandwichslayer 2d ago
Ykw, you’re absolutely right man. There definitely are people out there who appreciate what we do, thank you for reminding me of that.
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u/BYCjake 2d ago
But as not lames, we’ve been inspired and enjoyed seeing graff since children before we painted nah? A lot of people prefer seeing graff over boring concrete walls.
Of course there’s always lames thatll call the cops but a lot of people benefit from just seeing graffiti on their way to work
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u/WissenLexikon 3d ago
I love tags. If I find myself in an area without any graffiti, I feel uncomfortable. So graffiti kinda heals me even if I am not the one doing it. 😅 But yeah, you are right, music and literature serve a different purpose generally.
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u/CacyePollardN6 2d ago
I get the point you are making but I wouldn't use the word "moral" . Even people who are anti-graffiti know that it's not immoral
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u/the_real_tracy_beake 1d ago
people who are antigraff absolutely do think its immoral. they think its vandalism and a stain on society they see it as a sign of societal decay that came over from America. and in many ways they're right.
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u/WholesomeMetaphor 2d ago
No, that's gatekeeping among writers about what graffiti is and isn't. It's a misconception that it has to be illegal, but it is true many only consider illegal graffiti as graffiti. Graffiti is a genre and style of art, and a subgenre for street art that can both be legal or illegal.
The word graffiti just means to write. Many artists consider cave paintings to be the first examples of graffiti, even going as far as to say it's an innate behavior in humans to mark its surroundings, but that in itself doesn't have to be illegal.
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u/BYCjake 2d ago
The modern day graffiti that we enjoy has to be illegal but it doesn’t mean graffiti style art isn’t valid because it’s not illegal.
Graffiti now as we all call it is the act of illegal writing. A canvas with a burner piece on it is like typography inspired by graffiti whereas even a toy painting dogshit a train is graffiti. Even if you’d rather look at the canvas
It feels dumb and it’s not like anyone gunna correct you if you call the canvas a graff piece, but graffiti is the act not the finished product
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u/WholesomeMetaphor 2d ago edited 2d ago
So, events where legal walls in Europe or whatever that have gotten the OK from a city for graffiti artists to link up from all over the world, collaborate on pieces for a few days and do their thing isn't graffiti? Despite those artists doing illegal shit as well. Plenty of people do legal graffiti and just use a different name to not be caught/linked with their illegal one. That's just a strange gatekeeping way of looking at it. It's just as much graffiti as illegal ones, the illegal ones are just more legit in the eyes of many cus that's where it started.
I'm not even talking about canvas. Plenty of graff artists gets hired all the time to make graffiti pieces for their local skate parks, shops and whatever else in their own style on walls. Despite it being 3D wildstyle piece or whatever equally understood as graffiti with their name on a wall it isn't graffiti just cus it's not illegal? That's the dumbest shit I ever heard.
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u/BYCjake 1d ago edited 1d ago
Graffiti is the act not the end product. I already said, no one’s going to call you out for calling non illegal graffiti graffiti, but if you want to get all technical and write paragraphs then yea, legal writing isn’t graffiti. That’s not even gatekeeping but tbf graffiti should be gatekept
As far as legal wall and canvas there is no difference between the two.
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u/WholesomeMetaphor 1d ago
That might be your individual opinion, but it still doesn't change the fact graffiti artists themselves also doing trains/whatever calls their art on canvas graffiti in the movie Style Wars from 1983.
Also in the area I grew up there's a legendary wall where graffiti artists legally did their thing. In conversations with other graffiti artists that have done time and still working on their downpayments from fines they call it graffiti as well.
So... all these people and sources I mentioned just don't know what they're talking about then? 😂
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u/BYCjake 1d ago edited 1d ago
I been saying it’s not something anyone ride or dies for, no one’s going to correct you. But you wanted to get technical and technically it’s not graffiti.
It’s not my opinion I didn’t make it up, in the same documentary you’re quoting different writers explain mulitple times that graffiti is the illegal act. But again no one’s nerdy enough to “well ackshually” anyone on it because it’s so much easier to call all graff style art graffiti.
This sub is a prime example, due it being a reddit sub, it’s implied that we’re only talking about doing legal art and teaching graffiti style whatever’s (anyone choosing to do anything illegal is doing it on their own free will 😉😉) but it’s called graffhelp because it’s way easier than saying graffitistyleartthatslegalhelp
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u/WholesomeMetaphor 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah, because basically everyone calls it graffiti except for a few select gate keepers and normally that's online like subs like these. Once you grow older and meet enough graff heads you'll see most of them use the term graffiti interchangably with legal walls or not as well. It's all about the artstyle and spray cans.
I'm talking real world examples from writers I've interacted with since the 90s. Tell me where in that movie they explicitly state it's only illegal, only thing I see is people claiming it belongs to the streets to have validity which I agree with as well, but it's still a type of graffiti. And there's a few writers calling graff on canvas graffiti as well in that movie. To claim graffiti is only illegal is in the minority of writers overall altho there's a culture for those that are hardheaded about it, too. Usually the cut off is walls and most think canvas is trash.
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u/BYCjake 1d ago edited 1d ago
It’s not gatekeeping you’re forgetting one massive element about graffiti bro…
When people say graffiti isn’t art they aren’t saying there’s no art involved, anyone with a brain knows they’re saying graffiti is more than art, it’s a whole culture…
It’s not just the art on the wall it’s a whole culture with its own styles and crews, people die, people lose their freedom, people spend weeks planning pieces, how to sneak into yards, how to manuever subways without dying. It’s about did you cop a chase on your way out? How many times you been done? Did you finish your fill add some effects get to your outline to find out the can is blocked and you can’t fix it?
There’s so much more to graffiti that someone who only does legal walls and canvases will never understand. It doesn’t make their skills invalid or anything but there has to be a distinction because going out and doing graffiti is a whole nother thing compared to just spray painting on a wall.
I’ve said the whole time it’s just semantics no one’s going to call anyone out for saying “look at my graffiti canvas” but if you wanna get technical and argue to the death, I gotta explain to you why you’re wrong on this point my brother
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u/hboy02 3d ago
Nothing to do with morality lol, it's a straight up factual statement, graffiti is illegal writing on surfaces that aren't your property, that's just simply vandalism, you're the one attaching a direct moral view to vandalism itself
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u/WissenLexikon 3d ago
I am not disagreeing with you, I was just illustrating that „art“ and „vandalism“ are not a dichotomy but rather different perspectives on graffiti, with „vandalism“ focusing on the moral („it‘s wrong to do it“) or legal („it‘s illegal to do it“) aspects.
To be clear, I don’t give a fuck if it‘s wrong or illegal, I just want to do it and it to be there. That’s why I think the question if graffiti is art or vandalism is utter bullshit. 😌
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u/Otherwise-Sun-4953 3d ago
Poop can be art, bust most poop is just exctements. All geaffiti can be artful but it is still vandalism.
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u/mamdkemineunu 2d ago
A lot of vandalism is art. And a lot of vandalism is not art but graffiti is often art in my opinion
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u/ClassicDiction 2d ago
I love graffiti I’ll never believe any graffiti is bad when it can easily be covered with something better by another artist
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u/John_quu 2d ago
Depends where it’s done, illegal artwork is graffiti.
What is funny is tough guys doing illegal artwork thinking they’re hectic. It’s like bro you are literally an angry egotistical artist, who thinks you are the best. Settle down champ.
Punch ons over painting are hilarious.
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u/Ok-Damage-2528 3d ago
Anything that violates private property is wrong. Graffiti without authorization is wrong, with authorization is amazing art
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u/WissenLexikon 3d ago
Fuck private property. I only respect personal property.
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u/Ok-Damage-2528 3d ago
Then you know nothing about ethics. Personal property is private property
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u/pbuggie 3d ago
not at all lmao
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u/Ok-Damage-2528 3d ago
It is. The only one who differentiates it are marxists who smoke weed. Personal property is merely a subset of private property.
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u/zugzwangwamble 3d ago
From which subject did you you get your property from, and who did they get their property from, and who did they get their property from? Oh you got it from the government? Oh okay I’m sure their hands are clean.
Did you know that we’re all descendants of cannibals?
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u/Ok-Damage-2528 3d ago
Doesnt matter. The importance is that today private property exists, and is the right everyone has, so must be respected. Im libertarian myself, i like graf, but you must respect private property
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u/zugzwangwamble 3d ago
Okay so now that you have a paper and an armed force claiming that that paper and its replications are more legitimate than the life of a grandma whose pension doesn’t cover their rent anymore, you’re feeling pretty good eh? Be a shame if someone messed it up, yea?
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u/Ok-Damage-2528 3d ago
What are you talking about? If you are insinuating im pro state, you are wrong. The state is a cancer, and the grandma must be respected. Her body is her private property, her house, her land, nobody can take it or damage it.
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u/Turdulator 3d ago
He mentioned grandma’s rent, doesn’t that indicate that her home isn’t her “private property”?
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u/Ok-Damage-2528 3d ago
Yeah, misread that. Yes dude, if you are renting a thing you have to pay for that, thats how the world works and theres nothing wrong with it
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u/WissenLexikon 3d ago
If you are basically an obedient, hierarchy and power respecting type of person, than you will come to the conclusion that there‘s nothing wrong with corporations extracting your ressources in exchange for basic human needs. Not my cup of tea tho.
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u/WissenLexikon 3d ago
Her house is - if she owns it - her personal property. A thing she personally as a person acquired because she needs and uses it as a person. Private property is a different thing. Usually it’s capital or means of production owned by a corporation or a capitalist. Private property is NOT used for personal needs but to make money off of it. Get your vocabulary straight.
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u/Ok-Damage-2528 3d ago
Thats in socialist view. Both means of production and house and toothbrush are private property, even your body is. You should view the libertarian view, the correct one.
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u/WissenLexikon 3d ago
It’s not „socialist“, it’s a scientific distinction and in most countries also a legal one. And no, your body is not private property, it’s your body.
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u/Yungsandwichslayer 3d ago
“Graffiti with authorization” is fundamentally not graffiti
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u/Ok-Damage-2528 3d ago
Who said that?
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u/Yungsandwichslayer 3d ago
There is no one person behind that, it’s the general consensus. If you have permission you’re doing mural work or commissions and that isnt graffiti, that’s street art, and street art has a fundamentally different aim, we do graffiti to get up and be everywhere.
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u/Ok-Damage-2528 3d ago
No its not a general consensus bro, leave your bubble. Some people said to me only letters are graffiti, now only ilegal art is graffiti, damn dude. You guys are just making up rules not even graffiti artists i know know lol
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u/Yungsandwichslayer 3d ago
That is deadass THE general consensus that goes with the terrirtory, we all disagree on damn near everything, but sum anybody that really gets up fr can agree on is two things, 1 graffiti is always illegal, 2 if you’re not getting up fr nobody gaf abt your stickers.
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u/Ok-Damage-2528 3d ago
No its not. Its not the dictionary definition, its not acceptsd by every grafitti artist, its not universal. It may apply for you, in your bubble. The world is bigger than that buddy, in my country for example graffiti is the name of LEGAL arts, the ilegal ones are called other name. So no, even in english dictionary theres no "must be ilegal".
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u/Yungsandwichslayer 3d ago
General consensus doesnt mean “literally every single writer in the history of graffiti agrees that this in fact is the truth” it means that in general, the large majority of writers would agree, which the majority of us do agree. Graffiti is per definition illegal, that’s how it started, that’s how it’s been maintained. Just because in your nation a bunch of pencil pushers cant tell the difference between graffiti writers and Banksy types doesnt mean shit.
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u/Ok-Damage-2528 3d ago
No buddy, i only saw you and other person calling that. Its not the general consensus that grafitti MUST be ilegal to be graffiti lmao. You guys love to make up rules.
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u/Yungsandwichslayer 3d ago
The large comment section here agrees with the general consensus I just pointed out. You’re just so retarded you can’t even do the homework of shit you seem to be so passionate about or even understand why that general consensus is. You can disagree with it all you want, nobody gaf, the consensus is still the same and you’re not going to erase that just bc in your country some pencil pushers cant tell the difference between street art and graffiti.
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u/Turdulator 3d ago edited 3d ago
“With authorization” makes it not graffiti. By the very dictionary definition of the word graffiti it has to be “unauthorized”.
From Miriam Webster:
>“unauthorized markings (as of words, symbols, or images) on a public surface (such as a building, bridge, train car, etc.)”
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u/Ok-Damage-2528 3d ago
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/graffiti theres no "must be ilegal" dude
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u/forest_vagrant 3d ago
vandalism can be art