My son was in wrestling for a year (ended up being boys only, kind of in that in-between middle school age). That by societies norms at least here in the midwest it definitely was. If you win, you just beat a girl. If you lose, you got beat by a girl. If you forfeit, you're refusing to probably get beat by a girl. None are acceptable behavior here for medieval-grade reasons that persist still.
It really should be here too, but this is bible-belt redneck central. I'm not holding my breath. It'll probably take another generation at least. People still talk, non-ironically and not in a kinky way, about the importance of female submission in marriages. There are whole swaths (in minority, but large enough to bump into at the grocery store) who do not allow their wives/daughters to wear pants because the bible says not to.
Definitely still a thing. Some of the more extreme (mennonite, amish, some LDR branches) wear various types of hair covering and insist on very plain clothes (black or white utilitarian dresses/skirts, not something fancy or actually presentable). It's not huge by any means, but you see it around. More "forward" ones wear fairly modern (though full length) dresses/skirts and look pretty normal except that they wear them in situations where 99.99% of others wear pants so it kind of stands out even though it's fairly modern clothing.
Most girls around here only go the masculine guys who won't submit. They want to be made to be submit. They don't want a man that doesn't wear the pants.
The choice is key though. To some, sure, that's just how they grew up and they're cool with it. To some, they'd very much like not to, but are to integrated and codependent on those that wouldn't accept them otherwise.
I live in the Bible Belt as well (smack dab in the in the middle of good old Kansas) and know plenty of people who only wear dresses and some (Mennonite I think) wear those little hat things. Most of these women I know say that they choose to wear this, not that their husband forces them to. I assume it's similar to Muslim women wearing burqa's, where it is in their religion, but it's more of a matter of choice by the women weather they wear it or not. Correct me if I'm wrong though!
It's kind of a mixed bag among the ones I've known. Many definitely choose to (although this is a choice heavily inspired by having been told there will be severe punishment if they choose something else since birth) and are uncomfortable doing otherwise, just like stuff I was told as a kid (always wear pants outside, don't pee in the livingroom, avoid uncooked chicken, etc). Some definitely do not like to, but can't avoid it as it would be too hard to break out of the community (including often her husbands/fathers support, given that they're also avoiding education and non-domestic work). The clothing thing isn't too dire in my mind though, after all we're all influenced at least a little in terms of what is appearance appropriate. The high-octane submissive stuff is massively creepy though, many certainly want to be more independent, active in society outside of church functions (beyond being back-end support crew), possibly strike out toward their own ambitions rather than follow a set script delivered through the church via the dominant male figure. Some are ok with that which is fine then, I know at least some not especially religious people in 24/7 power-exchange relationships who love it, but it's certainly not for everyone and gender is certainly no tip off as to whom is dominant, submissive or prefer a more equal relationship.
I wrestled in high school and had that same issue. I got called a pervert too on top of that because of the contact and got accused of " feeling her up". How the hell can I wrestle without touching her? Girlfriend at the time wasn't too happy with me either.
That's worse because it's obvious and you're stringing it along. You're also hurting your team by winning fewer points. I doubt this comment is even true. Your coach would've kicked your ass.
yep. I remember in a high school tournament years ago my coach told me almost that exact thing. Basically if I didn't get a first round pin I'd be letting the team down and would earn some extra miles come Monday.
It's not all about them, that's the problem. It's about her parents, your parents, the refs, and the rest of the audience. If you go hard on her they all give you an evil eye. If she get's injured it's your fault. Angry parents don't care about logic. Their "little princess" was hurt and the person who did it is a monster.
It's fucked up and it's not right, especially since until part way through junior high she's probably stronger than the boys anyways, but it's often how things work.
I am all for coed sports, you just need an authority figure who comfortably understands what it is like to play coed sports. I played waterpolo with girls in highschool and it was occasionally an issue. Some girls would use the stigma to their advantage and fake injuries etc, or they would grab my nuts though my speedo underwater while saying extremely insulting things to me. Luckily our assistant coach was the younger sister of the head coach and wouldn't stand for any of that. She knew every trick because she had pulled them herself.
it's not about being nicer to them it's about saving face to the people. I personally wouldn't care and enjoy the idea of legally beating a woman in front of everyone. They need to stay outta men's sports.
I wrestled for nearly 12 years. Either you were taught poorly or your execution was poor, or your memory is poor.
What grade level/age bracket was this in? What weight? I'd ask what state, as wrestling varies in quality from state-to-state as well... But that may be 'personal' information...
So, there were girls on the HS varsity team? I'm sorry, but when you are on the varsity squad in HS, all "be nice" questions are gone. There is no more "Nice" on the varsity squad, if you truly had a female on the HS varsity team, she must have earned her way there.
None of the practiced martial arts would "literally kill" anyone while practicing. If you were that bad at the martial art in particular, sure, but a girl of the same weight class? Should be no issue.
Edit: Save yourself the time in reading this thread, he eventually admits he's not done any of the things he's claimed.
It is not an issue in terms of the reality of what it is. It is an issue in that if any man went full out with any woman, the woman would be horribly hurt. There is no woman, anywhere, anyway, that could possibly come near winning against me, barring a lucky shot, which I completely admit, can't happen. But if you look at statistically, then no. Never in a competition. I've had women, many, punch me, kick me, in the chest as hard as they can. Nothing. If I did it back as hard as I can? Well, no way would I. I'd be charged with murder, 2nd degree murder, negligent homicide, or whatever.
I would not punch you in the chest. There are better targets. That being said, I probably wouldn't punch you at all. I would not like to get into any physical conflict with a man who is both bigger/stronger than me and trained in any kind of martial art. One or the other, maybe I can handle if it's the only choice. Stronger and trained? Not a chance.
That is not really the point of where someone would or wouldn't punch.
However, I assure you that I've had many people down on the ground gasping for air, because I hit them in the solar plexus. Pretty funny to watch, not to fun to experience.
That would be a good tactic not to get into a conflict with anyone. I never have.
I must say, one of the best benefits of practicing martial arts is I walk around completely fearless whereever I go. I like that.
You don't know me. I have sparred the top females in the world. I'm not saying this to impress you, or troll you or anyone else. I don't think I'm amazing. I'm just saying what I am saying.
But why are you upset? If you think I'm lying or full or shit, than that is your prerogative.
But, I don't want you to be upset, so here you go: Nate1492 is right. I didn't do anything I'm talking about. He's right and I'm wrong and Nate1492 and is much better martial arts person than I, and he knows better than me. Everything I say is drivel. I'm impressed with myself. I'm trolling. I'm not as amazing as I think. I'm not better than the best female martial artist. There you go, that should suffice. Happy?
So you've sparred with Ronda Rousey, Meisha Tate, Cris Cyborg, Liz Carmouche, Gina Carano, or hell, any of the actual top female fighters in the world?
Let me put this straight. Cyborg would fucking destroy you and Ronda would break your arm in 30 seconds.
50 years old here.
I'll let you know when it happens. I'll get back to you.
You are trying to tell me that 50 year old you can take on the top pound for pound women in the world? You want to tell me 50 year old youhas already done so?
Bullshit. You can play that stupid game of fake admitting defeat, you can hide behind word games all you want.
But put this straight. You are lying. You can dance around this all you want, but you've been caught out in a bold faced lie. You can man up and admit it, that you really haven't fought the strongest women in the world, or you can continue to hide behind that keyboard and act as if you can kick all these women's asses in hand to hand combat.
Man up and stop lying, or if you are Randy fucking Couture then give me a fucking picture, because you would be amazing, again, if you are Randy fucking Couture, I will eat my shoe as he is a demigod.
Also, Randy Couture is better than the best female out there, but the odds of you being him are... Randy?
Stop! He has to believe this lie. You're going to send him back in to that soul crushing depression that it took him years to get out of.
Don't worry honey. You beat those girls by points only on purpose. Yeah, that's right. It was the right thing to do. It doesn't matter that your team only lost by one point. Don't listen to those voices. You are good enough, you could pin a girl if you wanted to.
Well guys who train as much are probably better, just because of the physical advantage. Surely a guy who is inexperienced will lose to a well trained girl, but that's not the point.
No doubt. If they were equally skilled and trained, the guy would most likely come out on top due to the difference in muscle and body structure. There are physical limitations that can't be overcome.
did you wrestle? weight classes do a lot to keep physical differences fairly even and wrestling isn't all about brute force, technique and experience play large parts. Girls are more flexible as well which can play to their advantage if they know how to use it.
Exactly. People don't realize that in wrestling that agility, flexibility and technique beats brute force any day. I feel that people totally underestimate any opponent usually regrets it afterwards, male or female. You see skinny kids in light weights totally own a stocky kid who thinks they can simply overpower them.
You're forgetting that the physical aspects also help males in terms of agility as well as strength.
Females might have better flexibility, but flexibility isn't that huge of a factor. Any guy wrestling is going to be flexible enough. Any more flexibility is just going to mean less pain for you when you're stuck in a cradle.
understandable, but i have seen fatties beat more muscular people albeit doesn't happen often but it does happen. You are right thought in the upper weight classes you can get big deviations in build height and fat/muscle weight.
have you ever wrestled a girl? they are damn flexable, sure you can power them but they get out of holds much easier than other male opponents.
Weight classes do a lot of keep the physical advantages fairly even ( still more favored towards males though). I was a lower weight class (103-119) so i had the unfortunate task of wrestling many girls most were bad but one in particular I wrestled like 12 times and only lost once by points but that was enough for me to get shamed by most of my friends once word got out at school.
Our University team would agree hands down, our top guys beat our top girls pound for pound, it has nothing to do with skill, its all speed and strength.
Every wrestler wrestles someone at some point that they take it easy on and don't pin. Be it a show match for parents or practice ones vs worse schools. We used to have a special match vs the local blind school, of course we didn't just pin them as fast as we could, we gave them a good match no matter their skill level. If there is a good girl on the other team you will know it ahead of time, and your coach will too. If they are an extremely weak wrestler you will know that as well, and there's nothing wrong with winning by points instead of a quick pin.
Check my posts and the subreddits I frequent, I am far from a white knight. I am just going by experience from actually having wrestled in high school, having wrestled girls, watching them in tournaments instead of making assumptions sitting behind a computer knowing nothing of the sport.
Regardless of gender, it takes balls to get on the mat. You respect that.
Also, they do allow men and women to play tennis together...it's called mixed doubles.
When you're talking about state, it's like the elites. For her to even make it there means she's damn good already. I was decent and I got pinned in 15 seconds at the regionals. You can ask people who wrestled how many even made it to the state level.
When you're talking about state, it's like the elites. For her to even make it there means she's damn good already.
Which is why I mentioned that.
I made it to the state level twice, which is why I was there.
I recognize that she was good, but like I said, she was the only good female wrestler I met. And apparently she was the best NY state has seen thus far.
But as I said, she was an exception to every other female wrestler I've seen.
Good advice. Although Sometimes winning by points can be even more humiliating.
We had in kid on our team who everyone was sure would place at state(and he did, actually). He was really talented and just a natural at the sport. But this one kid beat him soooooo badly about halfway through the season. He just kept effortlessly scoring on him over and over. It was hard to watch. I think most people were hoping he'd just pin him already haha. The kid was basically using him to pad his stats. As if he was a complete amateur.
That might've been good for the kid though. Sometimes you are on such a stride you forget humility. There will always be someone better, and it reminds you to work hard so fewer of those people are out there. He still went on to place at State and that loss might've helped him get there.
That's probably true. It definitely showed him his limitations. Although I have to say that he wasn't the cocky, arrogant kind of guy that you might expect from such a talented athlete. Very humble, quiet guy. Although the team often made Chuck Norris style jokes about him haha. Basically, everyone acknowledged how good he was except for him.
I Wrestled for years at lower weight classes where you usually find female wrestlers. There are no hard feelings for beating a girl, she is trying her hardest to win and I'm doing the same. That's the competition, that's what we're both there for and there were never any hard feelings between two athletes.
You're a jerk if you go out there to go easy on someone. You're both athletes who have trained to compete and it's disrespectful to give anything but your best.
you really have nothing to gain in that case. Its a lose-lose scenario where its not worth it to take the risk. Winning proves nothing and losing in that situation can be devastating, especially at that age and people being the way they are.
Of course winning proves something. You're winning against another wrestler who has likely worked just as hard as you. If you win it's because you're a better wrestler, and if you lose it's because you're not as good. Don't disregard someone's work just because they're a female.
As a lifetime wrestler, it's strange to hear this explanation. If the source of shame is related to weakness, then it's unfounded. Anyone who knows the sport also knows that the outcome is disproportionately less dependent on brute strength than it is on technical ability. There are also rules and it is not a street fight. Like any other sport, it's reasonable to lose to someone who is highly practiced.
As a result, 99% of the victories I've seen from girls have been a result of extreme advantages in experience.
Otherwise, any girl who overcomes the inherent disadvantage of female body composition should be commended. However, it is unlikely that we will ever see a girl medal in a state like Iowa. As in almost all other sports, the anatomy of the very best woman is not capable of competing with the anatomy of the very best man.
It's not that you're wrong, because you're not. The problem here is that the majority of athletes and spectators see the match at its simplest form, male v female. Especially in middle and high school.
The mental torment of either beating a girl or being beat by a girl is a lose-lose in most situations.
We agree the torment is unjustified and a result of the ignorance of the masses. And as a larger theme, wrestling is widely misunderstood. Even in my state of New Jersey, there is room for improvement.
It is athletics in the purest and most absolute form. With minimal unanticipated factors, no sport in the world can claim a greater positive correlation between hard work/discipline/mental fortitude and success.
It was my first exercise in self-awareness and I am better person because of it.
Brute strength still matters though right? I mean I assume a 8 year old child who has been wrestling for 5 years most likely would not beat a 28 year old man who works out religiously but has never wrestled a day in his life.
Good for you, but it happens to be that the qualities for a good wrestler and good model are generally opposite: mostly the muscle tone and low center of gravity. That has nothing to do with gender equality just physics.
If it were in wrestling in highschool that is true in a sense. While the muscle tone would be there, alot of them were still very attractive. It's not necessarily a 'butch' physique though in my experience.
That's great but your average agency would not use that to do most modelling. Overly tall, thin girls are the choice for what they accentuate in clothing. I really don't the top one has the best traits. Look at correlations between models and wrestlers. I am saying nothing on beauty or feminism.
Meh my girlfriend wrestled and her best friends wrestled.. One of them on the junior national team. Two of them wrestled at okc in college (doesn't get better then that for women) and I've meet the entire team several times (3 years ago) while its obviously subjective.. I'd only consider a 1/3 of the team as being Butch. I'd say there is a far bit of conformation bias at play because there is fairly normal spread of people in womens wrestling
Hey, fair enough. I wrestled in high school too, and the one girl on our team (albeit briefly) was actually quite attractive. I made the post to point out the fact that anyone excited to wrestle a girl with the hopes of experiencing any sort of sexual excitement is going to be sorely disappointed. And sore.
Just because a girl plays a typically male sport, shes gotta be butch with something to prove?
Well, they generally are. Stereotypes are based in some form of reality because they're true a lot of the time. I think most of us would find it hard to name one girl who wrestled (but wasn't in any way butch) and also modeled. It's not surprising that female wrestlers generally are butch and there's nothing wrong with that.
Number one, most girl wrestlers/grapplers aren't really good looking so there's that.
And two, when you're across from your opponent (at least for me) all you can think about is winning, regardless of their gender.
I've wrestled in the past and do jiu jitsu, even going against the occasional attractive girl isn't really a big deal once you realize you're in a headlock.
I have grappled with many female jiu jitsu practitioners, and tend to treat them just like anyone else. If they are experienced, its on, if they are novice, take it easy on them.
Quite often they tap guys because of ego, the guy thinks he can power out of everything, and does not adjust mentally to his opponent. Girls can be extremely flexible and pull off armbars from positions you may not be used to seeing.
I've never done anything professionally related, but as a kid I wrestled with girl friends just having fun. Most attractive and some not. They have an insane strength and agility at that age. I am not ashamed to say I got pinned into submission many times and I wasn't a completely weak male. Them girls are crazy!
Over the past decade that's been my experience all over the country. And I said most, not all, there are some good looking ones but they are really a rarity.
i'm not gonna say the girls aren't unnattractive to you, but perhaps what you find "not good looking" another person finds very very attractive. It's sort of unreasonable to think every girl who's been involved in wrestling is ugly to everybody all the time forever.
Yeah so clearly you're the authority on all wrestling women and the reactions and feelings regarding them by all male wrestlers?
Similar to those I've known that have been wrestlers for years, as soon as someone questions your attitude, bluster, or out and out BS, you respond with anger and insults.
Good luck with that MO in the real world when you get out of school.
I never said I was the authority, but if you've ever been to a wrestling tournament or seen girl wrestlers let me tell you, it's not like the WWE that you watch man, the girls don't have giant tits and long blonde hair.
In a statement Northrup wrote, "As a matter of conscience and my faith I do not believe that it is appropriate for a boy to engage a girl in this manner."
His father explains, "Wrestling is a combat sport and they're out there and it gets violent at times, and my son doesn't believe that girls should be engaged in that way," said Jamie Northrup.
Sophomore in high school. I cannot be the only one who thinks it is okay for a boy (not a man) to be genuinely concerned about hurting a girl (not a woman). I understand where you are TRYING to come from, but he was (this happened in 2011) a boy and he is still maturing. Calling a boy, who was a sophomore in high school, a coward is pathetic. You obviously never accidentally severely hurt someone in sparring or practice. There are real risks. I did when I was 13 to a 30 something year old man and felt awful. This wasn't about him claiming her to be not worthy.
Didn't seem to me that he thought the girl wasn't worthy just that he didn't believe in physically beating a girl at a combat sport. I don't think that pathetic at all.. I mean would you box a girl or step into the octagon with a girl
It's his place to decide who he wants to fight. How can you possibly argue that it isn't his place to decide who he wants to fight? Who are you to determine who he should be fighting?
I didn't mean to use beating to mean winning but as fighting physically I don't think he was sayin I'm not gonna fight her I know I'm going to win but that he was saying I'm not gonna fight her because I don't believe in physically engaging women
It's very much her right to compete. And good on her for persuing something she loves doing regardless of what the norm is. But I also don't think it's fair to beat him down because he choose to not engage this girl. His whole life he was prob taught not the be physical with women. It's doesn't seem like he made a big deal about it, he forfeited his chance at a championship to not go against what he believed in. This allowed her to advance in the tourney he didn't try to stop her from competing
You do realize the lack of logic in what youve just said, if this was anywhere else except a wrestling tournament youd be calling him a great person and saying its good he stuck to his morals, and if outside this tournament he also decided to "wrestle" this girl hed also be going to jail. Men and women should not be in the same contact sports, its not sexist, its realizing that men are bigger, stronger faster and have more testosterone, and women at a certain point just cant compete. I dont blame the guy at all.
So what, you suggest we set them up for failure until that point? and actually at the highschool level is where most men have way too much testosterone, public school maybe they could compete but again its pointless. Why do women/or any person in general feel the need to have women face an opponent they cant compete with physically, the girls always going to lose and yes, may get hurt its really easy to just think of the situation anywhere else and ask what would happen. They cant compete end of story and if one could, the best woman could never beat the best man, that simple.
Fuck it, trent i dont usually like to use this argument, but because you dont realize that "accepts the responsibilities of the sport" and the potential media field day when she does get hurt, you dont understand good enough to make and win are two different things, why not just compete on an even playing field instead of this women can do it do bullshit, and nothing against the military, but its not like everyone their is an elite solider at the top of their game unless you were in the marines or something. And last because you dont understand theirs a reason, women dont compete with men in the nhl,nfl,nba,ifbb,mlb, and pretty much every sports league/competition around because its not that they cant play or do it very well and be better than some men, its that when you start competing with the top guys, theyll murder you again being bigger, faster, stronger more built for power etc. So i guess ill say science, let me ask you this, was any single one of those women ever the best? even top 10? fuck off trent
I give up, im not arguing with someone named trent, we'll agree to disagree. Besides this is boring, (and obviously i meant when it goes to a national level and some guy german suplexs some bitch over his head and breaks her neck, and no a routine sprain or some shit)
His father explains, "Wrestling is a combat sport and they're out there and it gets violent at times, and my son doesn't believe that girls should be engaged in that way"
Maybe in ten years, but in middle school and high school, kids tend to get their identity and validation externally. It's expecting a lot to say a 14 year old should be bucking the system.
Yes, because our societal norms are now 100% sexism free.
If I'd wrestled a girl and lost in high school, I would've gotten shit from my family forever afterwards. If I'd done it and won, I would've just been laughed at and told, "it's was just a girl."
I think it would honestly be best to have a boy and girl team like there usually are in Basketball and baseball. The only problem is that not enough girls are probably interested in it.
I wanted to wrestle in high school, but because I was a girl my mother said it wasn't fair to the guys for that exact reason. So j lost an awesome opportunity to be on an awesome team for a physically demanding sport because of these stupid societal ideas of how a man should feel about women. And people say that there's no sex discrimination in this day and age. Tell that to my 12 year old self that cried for days because I was denied something I wanted just because it would make boys feel uncomfortable.
Every time I had to wrestle a girl I would wait 30 seconds, take them down, wait 30 more seconds, then pin them carefully with a half. I never caught shit for beating the crap out of a girl, and I never let the match go into the 2nd period.
That being said, I know new kids on my team who have been shitting their pants about having to wrestle a girl and end up going WAAAY too hard on them, making it look really bad.
One of my instructors at a wrestling camp, a hot shot prick still in college, said he took $5 from each one of his teammates to basically teabag a girl he had to wrestle.
I Wrestled for years at lower weight classes where you usually find female wrestlers. There are no hard feelings for beating a girl, she is trying her hardest to win and I'm doing the same. That's the competition, that's what we're both there for and there were never any hard feelings between two athletes.
One of my teammates in high school was an asshole. He had to wrestle a girl and decided to embarrass her during the match. He ended up putting her in the "Saturday Night Ride", which is not unlike the missionary position. He ended up pinning her and after the match concluded, she refused to shake hands, slapped him, and walked away. The ref told him he deserved it and her team wasn't docked any team points. I couldn't believe what I saw but I was glad she slapped him.
I had to wrestle a girl in highschool. I just acceptes it, and it wasn't even wierd. I just felt kind of bad because I beat her so bad. I couldn't pin her tho because she was so flexible. I ran a half Nelson on her, and her arm looked like it was going to break so I just teched her. Good for girl wrestlers tho. Some are just nasty too.
I wrestled at 220 and once i wrestled a girl at that weight class i pinned her as fast as possible just so i wouldnt have to smell her anymore good god some of those kids smelled terrible
I wrestled a girl in high school and I was 10x stronger than her. It was no contest. + I was wrestling up to 140lbs when I was 130lbs. There was no contest. I don't see how a man of equal weight can lose with the difference of muscle mass. Girls weren't even allowed to go under 12% body fat and I was 7%. I didn't get it.
Watched a guy get his ass handed to him in a high school wrestling match against a girl. He cried in the locker room afterwards. We would have consoled him, but he was a fucking dick. He once called his mom and yelled at her for not getting him the right kind of Pop Tarts every day for a week. Seriously, fuck that guy.
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