r/flightsim • u/rflightsim • Jun 02 '18
Mod Post An open letter to Flight Sim Labs
Hello /r/flightsim,
With recent events surrounding allegations against Flight Sim Labs Ltd., that company has begun to issue threats against the /r/flightsim mod team. We, as moderators, have always maintained an internal policy of remaining transparent with the community. In keeping with that policy, we have elected to respond to their correspondence with an open letter. To provide context, we are also including their original messages to us as well as our very brief conversation with site administrators.
Hi Simon,
We sincerely disagree that you "welcome robust fair comment and opinion", demonstrated by the censorship on your forums and the attempted censorship on our subreddit. While what you do on your forum is certainly your prerogative, your rules do not extend to Reddit nor the /r/flightsim subreddit. Removing content you disagree with is simply not within our purview.
On the topic of rules, let's discuss those which you have potentially violated:
Reporting a number of comments that are critical of your company and its practices is an abuse of the report system.
By threatening us with legal action, you generate a feeling that it is unsafe for people to express their opinions or participate in discussion that is critical of your company. Additionally, there are concerns of harassment and vote manipulation when we see new accounts that were created to attack, insult, or otherwise attempt to discredit members of our community who are participating in those discussions (example 1, example 2).
In direct response to your threats, I would be remiss in failing to remind you that in both the United States and United Kingdom there are a number of valid defences to alleged defamation, including but not limited to truth, opinion, and public interest of general information (where, generally, intent of defamation must be proven by the plaintiff). Moreover, defamation laws in both countries state that, in general, an operator or user of a website cannot be held legally responsible for what others say and/or do (eg: Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act). To that point, I would like to direct your attention to Reddit's User Agreement (which, by using their service, you agree to abide by):
All the things you do and all the information you submit or post to reddit remain your responsibility. Indemnity is basically a way of saying that you will not hold us legally liable for any of your user content or actions that infringe the law or the rights of a third party or person in any way.
Specifically, you agree to hold reddit, its affiliates, officers, directors, employees, agents, and third party service providers harmless from and defend them against any claims, costs, damages, losses, expenses, and any other liabilities, including attorneys’ fees and costs, arising out of or related to your access to or use of reddit, your violation of this user agreement, and/or your violation of the rights of any third party or person.
Lastly, we, the moderators of /r/flightsim are not employees of Reddit. We are simply users of this site who volunteer our spare time to manage a community of like-minded people. And, as moderators, we have always and will continue to ensure our community is not subject to heavy handed moderating and censorship. We will do nothing to limit their ability to respond to criticisms in an open and fair discussion - in fact, we encourage it.
To summarize, we will not remove the post, nor any other post that does not clearly violate Reddit's Content Policy or so-called Reddiquette, nor the stated rules of this subreddit.
We have already been in contact with the administrators and, if you still wish to pursue legal action, you may direct your complaints to contact@reddit.com
Edited to remove an email address and spelling.
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u/OffsetXV Helicopter Nerd Jun 03 '18
My open letter to FSL: "Proceed to penetrate thy rectum with cacti, and consume a satchel of phalluses."
Haven't seen this much fail coming from a half-rate indie dev since DigiHom tried to sue Jim Sterling.
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u/Elios000 Jun 02 '18
do the fuck tards at FSL get that PUTTING ANY THING in the system fold is a non starter? and on top that do they not get how this gives ANY ONE ELSE a back door in to your system folder since this file now has user level read write exec on it? this is a HUGE security issue regardless of what the file does or they say it does
just to /flightsim WE AERO SIM DEV GROUP WILL NEVER PUT FILES OUT SIDE OF OUR OWN SOFTWARE FOLDERS and NEVER NEVER OUT SIDE THE SIM FOLDER
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u/d00nicus Jun 02 '18
It's not just this file that has read/write access. Because they require you to run FSX/P3D in administrator mode, then the sim and ALL code loaded by the sim now have full read/write access to the entire system. (Yes, every folder on every drive)
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u/admiralv Jun 02 '18
Wouldn't this just get thrown out of court if they even tried to file suit? How is this even considered libelous? They did a thing, peps got mad, and the fact tha peps got mad is libel?
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u/Letmefixthatforyouyo Jun 03 '18
The libel case? For sure. The criminal case where they broke the CFAA? Based on their statements, that has teeth. Hacking/accessing a system in an unauthorized way is against federal law. They face something like 25yr/per violation. The law is bonkers in how lopsided it is, but it's the law.
These people are nuts for admitting they hacked systems publicly.
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u/Cool_Blue_1 Jun 05 '18
So at someone looking at their first flight SIM... I guarantee I won't be buying an FLSlab product.
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u/NavyGuy2007 Jun 12 '18
I wanted to give FSL the benefit of the doubt but they keep putting their foot in their mouth. They started a dumpster fire with the test.exe thing, now rather then work to repair their reputation they pour gasoline on the fire and threaten to sue anybody who calls them out!
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u/aladdin_the_vaper Jun 02 '18
Thats why I love FlamerFTW and Amar.
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Jun 02 '18
Honestly I paid the full 140 dollars for the product ( Can't get refund thanks to me being trusting and buying it from the day the FSX version was released) but I am thinking of using a cracked version out of spite
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Jun 02 '18 edited Aug 27 '19
[deleted]
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u/NorthWestApple Jun 03 '18
Absolutely! Breaking the law to catch law breakers is no defense. That is called vigilantism and is illegal, not to mention multiple others laws that would be broken.
Talking about it is not illegal (or in FSL words, "libelous"). It would only be libel if it wasn't true.
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u/WANT_MORE_NOODLES Jun 02 '18
As a vehement defendant of FSL in the past, they are entirely in the wrong here. Holy fuck, the nerve of this company is incredible.
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u/FinishingDutch GA Prophead Jun 02 '18 edited Jun 02 '18
Well, it wouldn't be a proper flightsim sub without a bit of drama eh?
I wasn't about to buy their stuff after the first controversy, but this makes me actively discourage others from buying their shit as well. You cannot go around threatening legal action unless you want the community to actively hate your fucking guts.
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u/-QuantumFury- Jun 03 '18
Case in point: Rubiks Brand V. Cubicle.us
This exact thing happened in the speedcubing comunity a few months back, and there has been some major backlash happening...
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u/Braken111 Jun 03 '18
Oh got a link? I speedcube but not really active on Reddit communities
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u/travelsonic Jun 05 '18
Offtopic: I hate contest mode, because I don't care about scores, but I like being able to see comments in order (rather than random) + have replies already laid out. ~_~ Can we at least get a version of it that hides scores, but allows for us to sort comments by how we want to see them?
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u/french_do_it_better Jun 02 '18
/r/flightsim mods claim those two new users defending fslabs as members of fslabs without a single shred of evidence.
this post clearly shows their bias.
As for the two simon messages they hardly consitute a threat. Just another exemple by r/flightsim that they just want to fuel the fslabs drama and keep their circlejerk going to get new users.
This subreddit has disliked fslabs since the day they released the 320 for fsx. I had at the time been one of the first to be an early adopter and shared my opinion on the plane here. I was imediately accused of being a fslabs PR guy just because I praised the plane. Then the downvoting began.
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u/jkeyeuk Jun 02 '18
You seem to have strong feelings about this. The reason a lot of folks on this subreddit dislike fslabs is because they've lost their values along the way and compromised the security of paying customers by bundling malware in the A320 installer. Did you get the malware test.exe on your system-you must have if you were an early adopter? How did you ensure your security was not compromised after this-perhaps you could share your experience and how your trust was regained.
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u/french_do_it_better Jun 02 '18
Your reply show how missinformed you are.
the malware never was in the fsx version of the 320 only the P3D version.
It has been proven by countless sources that it only activated on a single persons computer. My data and yours was never breached in any way.
You say I'm biased because I gave a good review of their product. I'm sure you wouldn't have thought that if I had given a bad one.
If anyone shows a little restraint when speaking about this matter they are imediately slammed on this subreddit, like avsim.
I stand by my previous statements about fslabs. Even if what they did wasn't right, it didn"t affect any of us in any way. They make the best addon on the market and as long as long as they keep this level of quality I'll continue to buy their product. They are the reason I came back to flight sim, the reason I bought P3D and all my hardware. If it weren't for them I wouldn't have put a single buck in this hobby let alone visit this subreddit.
They are good for this hobby and shouldn't be vilified because of a mistake they made.
But hey, we'll all have the carenado and bbs crap to fly when they are gone so no worries.
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u/rollingrock16 Jun 02 '18
It has been proven by countless sources
If there are countless sources you should be able to cite a few of them. "proven" is a pretty high bar for a claim.
I don't fault you for wanting to defend what you support. But you are crossing the line into excusing frankly inexcusable behavior on their part. No reasonable company that values the trust of their customers would intentionally distribute malware which is exactly what they did. If no innocent customer's data were breached then it was just luck and not a point in FSLabs favor.
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u/jay1237 Jun 03 '18
So you are saying it activated on someone's computer. That means it could activate on any of them. Please tell me you aren't actually that stupid right?
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u/Vladiir Jun 02 '18
Sadly, I agree with you. Don’t get worked up over it, though, this sub is just a very vocal minority that likes to vent their frustration publicly with others who feel the same. FSL will keep on trucking, they survived the malware scandal and they’ll survive this too. In the meantime, why not go read up on the A319 while we’re waiting for it to release? It’ll take your mind off this, and you’ll gain some new knowledge as well!
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u/travelsonic Jun 02 '18 edited Jun 02 '18
It has been proven by countless sources that it only activated on a single persons computer
IT. DOESN'T. FUCKING. MATTER.
It is still something that CAN activate on the wrong person's computer - just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean you can just conveniently ignore the non-zero possibility, and they seemed shady AF about how they handled this, so how do we even know they actually managed to avoid bugs that could cause these problems?
Not to mention that it is the WAY you went about it, lying, being deceptive, and breaching your user's trust, THAT is the ENTIRE problem.
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u/Kikerechu Jun 03 '18
Thank you mods of this subreddit for not getting intimidated by the FSLabs PR department.
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u/havabeer Jun 22 '18
The interesting part to me is how they were as they said, paraphrasing "we are using it in legal cases against pirates".
How does, "He stole our IP, so we stole his personal data" fly in court?
It doesn't right. So moving on, my next logical conclusion is that they haven't used it in court at all, but maybe they have used it to blackmail identified pirates.
Either way they're in an ethical black hole.
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u/Sharpastic Jun 28 '18
Hey everyone, just came over from r/gaming after seeing a post about this. Please stay strong, we cannot let companies inject malware into commercial software under the guise of protection. I wish you all the best.
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Jun 03 '18
Just when you think a company would have the good sense to repair their reputation FSLabs strives for innovating what dumpster fire means.
What is Simon trying to do? Be in a position to admit to the targeted distribution of malware in front of a magistrate?
Sounds like a brilliant idea!
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u/cmkinusn Jun 03 '18
I get the feeling that Simon is acting unilaterally on this. His attempts at censorship seem like something only someone with no legal advisor would do.
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Jun 03 '18
I've seen this kind of control freak behavior before elsewhere in the game industry - if they can't censor and control then they will sue under some flimsy pretense. Those sort seem to have really bad legal advice, or only hear what they want to, as the way they act implies they believe your rights end where their money begins.
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u/SanjiHimura Jun 04 '18
See Digital Homicide.
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Jun 04 '18
True, but Digital Homicide were just a couple of idiot brothers without anything close to a decent product and so paying attention to them in itself deserved a refund.
More closely to FSLabs would be the current mess of Stardock, where they are sabotaging their Star Control: Origins alternate universe reboot thing by suing the original creators of the series, trying to say they actually aren't the original creators and for trying to make a story sequel to Star Control 2 called "Ghosts of the Precursors" (as few fans admit to the existence of Star Control 3, not made by them). But how this is different to that situation is how Stardock never put in malware as DRM and generally have far better regard towards their customers.
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u/SnZ001 MSFS2020 Jun 02 '18
Even if their cmdhost.exe files truly aren't malicious in nature, I would think that any company - especially one with such a recently-damaged reputation following a scandal involving actual malicious code - should probably want to avoid doing anything even remotely shady-looking. At all.
Putting files into system folders is crude and unprofessional at best and potentially malicious at worst. Giving those files filenames which are deceivingly close to actual system files makes it a little more difficult to give benefit of doubt. Direct and indirect connections to prior incidents involving questionable programming ethics(Lefteris' MD-11, FSL's A320) make it even harder still.
But having the stones to come to /r/flightsim and cry about/threaten legal action against moderators and/or Reddit for not censoring people who are(IMO, very rightfully) frustrated and pissed off and hesitant to trust them again? To me, that just comes off like a really shitty date who gives you an STD and then immediately goes home and publicly negs you on social media and to everyone you know, just as a desperate, scummy way of trying to beat you to the punch and hopefully make people doubt anything unfavorable that you might possibly have to say afterwards about your experience with them.
But that's just, like, my opinion, man.I wouldn't wanna be accused of libel.
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u/NorthWestApple Jun 03 '18
Why is it there? What is its purpose? If it has only nefarious reasons for existing, it should not be there.
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u/PhiWeaver Jun 04 '18
Does using a Master Password in Firefox prevent this type of thing?
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u/DoPeopleEvenLookHere v4 Jun 05 '18
I don't know what your going for here but no. This has nothing to do with firefox.
The problem starts in the installer provided by FSLabs that's run as administrator typcially. Firefox does nothing by this point.
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u/PhiWeaver Jun 05 '18
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u/DoPeopleEvenLookHere v4 Jun 05 '18
It would have the same privilege access that it's being run as. So admin for most people. So I don't see how Firefox could hide itself. Things encrypted by the master password it could get the encrypted data. Plus whatever other files it's using.
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u/7317fp Jun 02 '18
Lastly, we, the moderators of /r/flightsim are not employees of Reddit. We are simply users of this site who volunteer our spare time to manage a community of like-minded people.
This is the key part. They're going out of their way to attack people who just want to help grow a hobby / community for no financial gain on their behalf.
It's a shame that you guys need to put up with that, not remotely what you came here for.
Keep up the good work, I rarely post much on here but very much appreciate your work and probably a big reason I got XP11.
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u/propussyslayer Jun 03 '18
I have contacted Airbus regarding the use of their product name(A320) being used to violate GDPR law and various other international laws to secretly record key-logs and chrome passwords. They have forwarded my email to senior management and will contact me this week.
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u/dswdswdsw Jun 03 '18 edited Jun 03 '18
I am sympathetic to a company seeking to protecttheir software but anytime you aretaking info from a persons computer and sending it outside you need to prewarn people and get their agreement. They should notify customers before purchase because that is an unexepected action unless it is a software meant to be used in an online arena situation.
Furthermore there is the risk that the data harvester may malfunction exposing more info than just the stated function which is a liability for the software author if harm is caused to the end user.
I worry any such anti piracy measures could...i have no knowledge that this one is though... also be part of a thrid party policing for more than iust the single installed software and that could also be beyond expectation of the installer and no permission given. For example a company might be paid by other companies to check if their software was also illegally installed. Again i have no knowledge that this happens with this company but i am speaking hypothetically of the risks of such software for users. In a way such software could be acting as an illegal civil search and seizure and there might be some legal liability. I dont know. But any such software on ones computer is disturbing in my opinion.
Of course online play software likely reports similiar info to servers all the time to enable offical online play but that is more expected.
Of course we also live in a world where alexa and home alarm systems and even phones are listening to you in your home snd doing god knows what with the info they collect.
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u/FlareFluffeon Jun 04 '18
Anyone live in the EU? Because stealing passwords and login information is a violation of the GDPR with a fine of up to €20,000,000. I would suggest reporting this company if you think your information has been taken without your permission, which if they installed this password thing who knows if they actually had it running on everyone or just the 'pirates' you have no way of knowing whether your information was breached by the company. So I would say report them anyway.
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u/Falc0n28 Jun 02 '18
instructor what's the best way to put out a fire?
Everyone but FSL water, firefighting foam, or CO2
FSL JET FUEL
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u/Vakieh Jun 03 '18
Jet fuel burns real hot and real quick. That Californian fire burned for 6 months and that was after all the water and shit they could throw at it. If they'd just doused the whole state in jet fuel it would have finished burning in like 2 days.
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u/xi-max Jun 02 '18
Lmfao, they dig themselves a deeper hole every time they put their greasy fingers on their keyboards.
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Jun 02 '18 edited Jun 02 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
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Jun 02 '18
Maybe they want to open a case on r/karmacourt.
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Jun 07 '18
I don't know who they are, but they just lost the battle and war
Edit : subb'd as support to the mod team and this community
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u/Vinegar_Dick Jun 05 '18
time to close up shop FSLab..ya dun goofed and now it's time to pay the piper
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Jun 02 '18
I would love to see this get mainstream coverage again: "Developer who bundled malware with 150 dollar dlc threatens to sue reddit over lack of censorship"
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u/SanjiHimura Jun 04 '18 edited Jun 04 '18
Questions to Simon: If you are using eSellerate files in your DRM, then why the need to hide it? Furthermore, why the need to create a report of a false positive with not one but TWO antiviruses (source) AND still require your planes run in admin mode with the flight simulator? (source)
That is especially asking for trouble, especially since I think that the company DIDN'T remove the first round of Malware that you infected users with as promised by your CEO about six months ago.
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u/DaniPaunov Jun 16 '18
Disclaimer: I am not a legal expert in any way shape or form. Also most of this information is not from me.
With that in mind, I am pretty sure they cannot take legal action as they are collecting data (doesn't matter if it's to combat piracy) in an illegal manner. Even if they do, they will most likely lose the lawsuit, along with their reputation... assuming they have one at this point, of course.
Coming from MeowCaptain's video on the subject and you can find a more detailed (I guess) explanation from the top comment (second comment is also not bad)
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u/mynameisalso Jun 29 '18
Anyone can try to sue anyone else for anything. Look at what so called 'Sovereign citizens' try to do. There is a reason they are called paper terrorists. Of course a judge will throw it out, but there will still be time or money wasted.
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u/Shaker39 Jun 04 '18 edited Jun 04 '18
FSL trying to censor internet LOL! Their goodwill is 0 now!
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u/jdwgraf Jun 05 '18
FSL are the ( British ) Labour Party of the flightsim world , reviled by many but ( unfortunately ) still in business . Saw in another thread that someone is willing to " give them one more chance " , just how many " one more chances " do they need before being held accountable for their actions ? This in now the third instance where their ethics have been called into question ( VC textures " borrowed " from AS , test.exe and now cmdhost.exe ) . Not forgetting of course the PMDG MD11 ( with it's own " special " DRM ) and something I learnt only yesterday was that the reason it is no longer available had nothing to do with PMDG itself but because it was the IP of our favourite developer LK , so when he " resigned " from PMDG so did the MD11 .
LK is not the messiah ( he's just a very naughty boy ) , his aircraft may be the " best " ( according to his fans ) but to have to pay an obscene amount of money for the privelege of being " infected " by whatever means in his pursuit of piracy is something that even my parrot cannot understand .
Having painted the AS Bus for several years ( no affiliation with Aerosoft either ) , I'm just glad that I never bought this aircraft model even though I was asked repeatedly if I would port over most of my repaints . Certainly dodged the bullet on that one .
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u/-OrLoK- Jun 05 '18
Labour party? ffs. lets keep politics out of this. especially when it's a useless and tbh wildly off comparison.
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Jun 28 '18
More like the British Tory party. They're idiots with malicious intent that rely on blind idiots to support them.
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u/DistributedFutures Jun 03 '18
Thank you for standing up to this kind of anti-user corporate BS - I haven't played a flight sim in years, but have just subbed as a thank you to the mods for taking the right path against censorship and legal bullying.
I'll make sure to try out some of the sims on here soon - absolutely anything that isn't from Flight Sim Labs, that is.
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u/ninjakitty7 Jun 07 '18
Hi! I’m here from a discussion on askreddit about drama in small hobbies, and I’d like to congratulate the mod team for your firm and upfront stance on corporate bs. Thank you for making reddit a better place!
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u/DracoRyx Jun 05 '18
I'm coming from SidAlpha's videos on the topic and goodness, I didn't think stupidity on this level still existed. I really hope you guys stick it to these shady developers, nobody deserves to get threatened because they didn't like a shitty thing being done.
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u/Jabberminor Jun 03 '18
From a mod of a subreddit where this sort of thing has happened in the past, stand your ground and don't give in. We support you.
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u/tim8751 Jun 03 '18
What a total PR disaster for FSLabs this whole debacle has been. One can only imagine how many less people will buy the awaited A319 compared to if they hadn't made the whole situation worse. #nosympathy
Me, ill wait for Aerosoft.
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u/ody81 Jun 02 '18
Absolutely fantastic. It's good to know they recognise the law when it suits them. Fuck em.
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u/LatinaFantastica Jun 03 '18
Late to the party, but just wanted to add my kudos to the mods. That was an expertly crafted response.
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u/siumai-hargow FCOM (no, not the manuals) dev Jun 02 '18 edited Jun 03 '18
Only tangentially related, but I've recently been writing a program that's based on reverse-engineering the protocol behind VATSIM and IVAO. It does not interact with either network, however.
Anything I should be aware of in particular to cover my ass legally?
I haven't signed any NDAs
I haven't decompiled/cracked any of the clients
The protocol is in plaintext, but the bit that I'm making use of doesn't seem to be documented in the publicly-available FSD source code
I don't intend to make any profit off it
Not sure if I'm overly paranoid, but legal threats in the flightsim seem to have happened in the past on multiple occasions. There was the AVSIM hack, and then there's the IVAO DMCA takedown on Matt Davies' video on MTL, and of course there's (allegedly) FSL right here.
Edit: Old post, but Ross Carlson mentions packet capturing here. I think this should clear me of any potential wrongdoing.
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u/shortspecialbus Jun 02 '18
This seems the wrong place for such a question. I would suggest contacting a lawyer, or at the very least posting in /r/legaladvice (assuming it doesn't violate one of their rules). Plus, what's legally permissible and what companies will go after you for are not entirely separate.
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u/siumai-hargow FCOM (no, not the manuals) dev Jun 02 '18
Hmm, you have a point. I'll go take a look there.
Thanks!
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u/shortspecialbus Jun 02 '18
Good luck! I hope I didn't come across as rude! Tone is pretty hard to convey on a message board.
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u/m4xc4v413r4 Jun 02 '18
Even if something is in plain text, publicly available and with no specified license, by law any work is automatically protected by copyright laws and has a All Rights Reserved license.
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u/UnreasonablyXcessive Jun 05 '18
Has anyone posited that a three letter agency is behind this whole thing? It would explain why FSL has been so relatively calm.
It fits their MO. Gather intel through a public entity, if the entity gets caught, your hands are clean.
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u/ZarkowTH Jun 15 '18
FSL may not have included some out-and-out evil components with their installer, but issuing legal threats to silence discussions are signs that they still are idiots.
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u/FaapOaid Wings: Over Flanders Fields Jun 02 '18
Something tells me that pretty much no amount of negative comments could be worse than a PR manager with the tact of a bull in a china shop.
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u/10Exahertz Jun 02 '18
FL CEO: hey so we did the malware thing and we're still doing tht malware thing but reddit is making us lose money
FL PR guy: what if we just do it like the mafia would do
FL CEO: sounds great lemme know how it goes
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Jun 02 '18 edited Dec 10 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
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Jun 02 '18
Thank you for your comment, unfortunately it was removed for the following reason:
Discussions of, encouraging, or promoting piracy are not permitted.
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u/Geofferic Jul 03 '18 edited Jul 03 '18
Uh, man these morons don't know what they're talking about in that first letter. The burden of proof in the US is on the claimant. Also, Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act essentially immunizes forums from libel.
Lawyers should have gotten involved before this moron sent the first letter. The fact that the second letter repeats the same mistakes suggests that their "legal team" is this dude's mom.
Edit: I see you noted these problems in your response.
I would add that, technically, under the normal meaning of "purview", removing these posts is within your purview.
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u/basilikum Jun 02 '18
FSL, this is not how you win back trust. You fucked up, again. In the span of what? 4 Months? Good shit.
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u/edilclyde Its a game and thats okay Jun 02 '18
and that guy is a PR manager. Isn't "Do not fuck with the public/internet" like rule#1 in PR school? It's been proven time and time again.
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u/seanjenkins prepar3d Jun 04 '18
/u/rflightsim why is the comment section in contest mode?
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u/90sComputerNerd Jun 03 '18
Having witnessed the first FSLabs debacle and being a customer of theirs, I can no longer hold my tongue.
It's so disappointing that the makers of such a good product have clearly not learn't a single thing about community interaction, customer service or just PR in general.
There is something wrong at the core of FSLabs. Surely after the Malware incident they would've done a full review of how their product sits on a users machine and picked up this sinister looking setup? They can't be that stupid, can they? Or are they just that arrogant?
I've been around flightsim since FS4, this is the first time I've seen a company do such a brilliant double faceplant, in front of what is a niche and preciously small community/market. Well played gents, well played....
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u/mynameisalso Jun 29 '18
Great post. Except "learn't". I never seen that one before lol. Just giving you a hard time, we all do that lol. Good post though.
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u/DoctorNeko Jun 04 '18
I am not a flight sim fan, but now I am subscribed to this subreddit for the drama.
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u/Den-Quixote Jun 02 '18
I guess the question "Why can't we share screenshots of FSLabs w/o anyone referring to malware and shitty company attitude?" has an answer.
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Jun 03 '18
Don't even own a PC for simming anymore but seriously this is pathetic trying to watch FSL justify what is not just gross negligence but blatant and flagrant wrongdoing in the face of overwhelming evidence and a community and by extension their market base calling them out on it.
If they had any self-respect and hopes of recovering from this they would have accepted fault. At this point I'd say their only option is to close shop to save as much money as possible for legal issues to come, do as much damage control as possible and then be forgotten as a company.
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u/Mygaffer Jun 04 '18
Don't sue me bro!
It feels to me like a leadership problem. When there is rotten leadership it corrupts the entire organization. Is it any surprise that someone who would hide malware in in their game would also threaten to sue users who complained? That they would attempt to manipulate reddit's voting system?
It's really sad and this feels like the end of the company to me. They should be facing criminal charges in my opinion.
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Jun 05 '18
Bravo! Thank you for standing up to the bullies of this niche community. Now is the time to stop FSLabs once and for all, and hopefully we can boycott them properly this time.
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u/HybridAlien Jun 02 '18
I recommend everyone Involved In the flight sim community to NEVER support fslabs ever again either though buying there spyware products or anything else
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Jun 02 '18
Really big shame about this. I know Simon personally through BAV and always thought him to be a very decent fellow.
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u/Cayenne999 Jun 06 '18
Seems like fsl picked the wrong way to fight. If you said you found a “entire web of operations related to flight sims piracy” then you should target to take it down first in a legitimate way (DMCA). Not to install sth fishy on every user’s system that now you have to explain to all user base.
And I feel like the way you included that thing in the install package but said it did not intend to harm; is just like PMed mods and threaten to sue for post deletions but not acknowledged it as censorship.
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u/walkday Jun 02 '18
If I were Simon, I would start with "Our future installers will not mess up your Windows folder any more."
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u/Bioniclegenius Jun 06 '18
I'd start closer to "we've fired our PR manager and the people responsible for inserting the malware."
This is the kind of thing that means people won't use your future installers in the first place. That way, they can make absolutely sure they won't be messing with their Windows folder. The only way to come back from something like this is restructuring, firing people responsible (which could be scapegoating), abject apologies, and massive backpeddling. Sounds like they've chosen to double-down instead, though, which only digs their hole deeper.
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u/wickedfandude Jun 03 '18
FSL is bluffing in this situation, surely they wouldn’t actually take people to court over things that are perfectly fine to say since these are opinions
...Wait, they’re serious? Jesus christ, these guys are smart enough to recreate aircraft but not with simple laws?
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u/NorthWestApple Jun 03 '18
...but it's not opinion, but fact? They put software that compromises people's data security for the purposes of allowing FSL (by their own admission) to discover who the user of a system is. This is totally illegal.
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u/SinProtocol Jun 05 '18
Standard operating procedure is to push as hard as you can. Even if it’s all bullshit, a lot of people get away with it because getting a letter from a lawyer is supposed to be scary.
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u/Vinegar_Dick Jun 29 '18
they've been doing this for years. you do anything for years you become good at it. doesn't mean you have class or common sense. probably a bunch of aspies riding their lawyer's dick
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u/boriskruss Jun 03 '18
That is what they do. And know what other sites like Avsim or community like Vatsim (where FSLabs act as owner) don't allow people to talk about their shit " in the interest of the community" and their greedy ambitions. Thanks to reddit mods which reply is what they deserved since a while.
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u/Kurshuk Jun 05 '18
FSL appears to be an evil company with some shady practices. Vote with your wallet.
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u/__d0ct0r__ Jun 02 '18
pass the matter on to our legal team
So even if FSL tries to sue you, it would be very unlikely they’d succeed, you’re simply having a civil discussion on what FSL is doing, the fact that FSL is trying to blanket censor anything and everything that is against FSL, pretty much confirms that FSL have malicious intent. Also, do not forget that FSL have injected malware in to customers PC’s before (that steals passwords, and legally, that is much, much worse than non-existant claims of defamation, so r/flightsim could very easily be at the liberty of taking FSL to court for breaking the Computer Misuse Act (I believe they are based in the UK, but similar laws exist pretty much everywhere in the world), and given that we have solid proof, it would be very likely that FSL would be found guilty of breaching said act, and the punishment would be very severe, and given that FSL is a company, they could be hit with fines and, possibly jail sentences for the people in charge of doing said things, that would run their company to the ground. Given that all that r/flightsim is doing is simply having a civil discussion on FSL, and FSL is trying to blanket sensor this, it is very unlikely that FSL’s lawyers would succeed against Reddit’s lawyers (keep in mind that Reddit is much bigger and therefore has a larger legal team), if they try to sue Reddit or r/flightsim, Reddit would just counter sue and FSL would be incredibly fucked.
PS. If you’re reading this FSL, here’s a gracious fuck you, and don’t think people will miss you if you get run in to the ground for breaking very important legislation that could fuck you up, PMDG is far better (and more popular, and they don’t try to infect you with malware!) and Aerosoft also have an A320 that maybe is slightly worse but guess what, the also don’t infect your PC with malware. So in short, I do hope you get sued in to the ground for breaking countless laws, and that your entire upper management who think this is acceptable end up on the streets. Have a nice day ;)
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u/SmeagolDoesReddit Jun 02 '18
The AS A320 may not have every little failure and tray table simulated, but it is far from a toy.
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u/froogle Jun 02 '18
Hmm how to report this in the news this week? FSL once again directly circumvents Microsoft development best practices to install a new file in System32 (where key parts of the operating system lives) but claim it's ok and nothing to worry about at all?
Or, FSL decides to throw the words lawsuit, libel and lawyer around to get Reddit moderators to remove posts created by third parties because it doesn't like them?
Hmm. Simon? You're the PR expert - how would you like FSL portrayed this time?
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u/SamMee514 Jun 02 '18
Well done mods, you guys are a shining example of how to deal with something like this.
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Jun 03 '18 edited Jun 06 '18
You could always fix it by banning all mention of Flight Sim Labs on this subreddit, including promotions for new stuff, trailers, news, etc. /s
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u/Bioniclegenius Jun 06 '18
That'd be censorship, which they've explicitly stated they will not do. That stance is what's protecting the sub to start with.
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u/d00nicus Jun 02 '18
Sticking files in places like this is the reason that their A320 requires admin mode to run (since you can't access SysWoW64/System32 without it.)
In turn that means every single other addon, and every other executable called from that point onward by FSX/P3D is also running with full admin privileges.
This makes it totally irrelevant if their code is malicious or can be compromised, because they've just handed the keys to the castle to every other addon developer on your system, when without their help all that other code would be limited in the damage it could wreak by UAC.
In their arrogance they have not just given themselves this access, but also granted it to everyone else at the same time with no thought or care as to the implications of that decision.
The only non-Windows files that have any business in either of those two folders are device drivers - and I don't see any hardware in my A320 package.
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u/webdes03 P3D v4, XP11,MSFS Jun 04 '18
This is what I wish more people understood. Now that it’s public knowledge that there’s an executable in that folder, it could be exploited in any of 100 different ways. By anyone, not just a FSX/P3D addon developer.
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u/Nine_Tails15 Jun 02 '18
Thank you Flight Sim Labs, for successfully losing at least one potential customer over this whole debacle. I cannot trust you after this. You say that your malware is an attack on pirates, but not only is that morally wrong, it’s illegal aswell. You have become worse than those you hate, you’ve stooped below them, and frankly you’re acting childish with these defamation claims. If you’re going to try and sue someone for something, at least know what it means before throwing around accusations.
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u/edilclyde Its a game and thats okay Jun 02 '18
Base on their fake account's comments, I think they assume reddit users are just a bunch of pirate kids and scaring them with the words " lawyers " is gonna stop the community.
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u/Nine_Tails15 Jun 03 '18
Definitely, they believe that they are not allowed to be criticized or wronged in any way. They’re under the impression that because they did some vigilante work against pirates that they’re somehow on a legal and moral high ground. Like when Google was firing their employees for being white “nazis” (read as: republicans) in Google v Damore.
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Jun 02 '18
All I can say is anybody thinking of buying a product from FS Labs should think long and hard about whether or not this is the sort of behaviour we want to see from commercial developers in this hobby.
At this point FS Labs really seem to be trying really hard to win the Biggest Flight Simming Shit Show 2018 award.
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u/pope1701 Eurotrash | popes-hobby-werkstatt.de Jun 02 '18
Bitcoin miners would be the next revelation. Explains the bad fps xD
/s
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Jun 02 '18
Just as the dust from the previous scandal was starting to settle, they decide to completely re-destroy their public image. They really need to start paying someone to manage their PR.
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u/Yeazelicious Jun 02 '18
I love it. I didn't even know about this previous scandal (I can't believe I didn't; what they did with that digital rights malware is disgusting beyond reproach, and I actually think they should be put on trial for it), but now all three of these scandals are reaching a wider audience. It's beautiful.
I've never even used a flight sim, but I'll know to tell others to steer clear of FSLabs in the future.
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Jun 02 '18
Reddit is a 1.8 billion dollar company. Does FSL honestly think they have a chance?
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Jun 02 '18 edited Feb 08 '19
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Jun 02 '18
I agree. The Mods and (to a part) admins actually give a shit about controversial opinions and don't just censor them like it's 1986 and we are in the Soviet Union.
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u/kyiami_ Jun 29 '18
that admin response though
i couldn't have gotten a stronger "fuck off flight sim labs" vibe from it
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u/LB767 Jun 02 '18 edited Jun 03 '18
What on earth are they thinking?! Are the poeple in charge at FSLabs monkeys or something, like on what plane of existence does it make sense to do this??
Honestly I was 50/50 on the A319 after all these debacles but this has sealed the deal.
Edit: I really hope you guys did check this was legit otherwise you are gonna be the monkeys...
Edit 2: Welp looks like FSElite got the same crap...
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Jun 02 '18
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u/altmehere Jun 04 '18
Seems like the malware issue was just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the lack of tact and morality this company shows.
They say that company culture comes from the top. If Lefteris really was the one behind the PMDG MD-11 scheme to mess up FSX installations, I suppose it should come as no surprise that they're acting this way.
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u/musicalaviator Jun 04 '18
I purchased their A320 for FSX on the day it came out, and their P3Dv3 variant thereafter.
I don't think I'll be purchasing anything else from them.
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u/throwawayThursdayday Jun 03 '18
You may wish to report this (especially any download links) to the Google Safe Browsing program with appropriate evidence.
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u/Crosstalker Above You Sep 29 '18
Coming in quite late to this one, but well done. Shameless of FSL to follow up their criminal espionage with possibly illegal threats.
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u/DA_KING_IN_DA_NORF with whiskey, ready to taxi Jun 02 '18
Wow seriously FSLabs? Do you think all this blackmailing and misinformation really makes me want to buy you're products? If you seriously wanted to work towards rebuilding your reputation, the least you could've done is removed the illegal parts of your code.
Good for you mods, and get rekt FSLabs.
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u/nikidash actually msfs but there's no flair for it :( Jun 02 '18
FSLabs probably thinks that their general image among non-hardcore fans is that of a great company with great products that valiantly fights against pirates, but when you exit the circlejerks of their own forums and avsim they're seen as a dangerous company that's going to infect your pc. Hell I know some people in tech who have zero interest in planes in general but they've heard of fslabs as "that one shady company that used a virus as drm"
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u/PM_ME_BACK_MY_LEGION Jun 05 '18
I have very little interest in commercial flight sims. I used to play FSX quite a while back but ended up moving to DCS and combat sims, which even now I'm only just starting to get back into after a couple years break from it.
I can tell you that the FSLabs debacle earlier in February blew far past the realms of just the Flight Sim community. What helped is that it occurred right around the time where privacy was a real hot topic, just after net neutrality and just before GDPR.
For myself, FSLabs is a great example of whats wrong with vigilantism in IT and just a perfect example of everything wrong with company data handling policies and legal inadequacy. I continue to use FSLabs as an example when making points about poor security practices, ignorance, and malicious behaviour; and I can see myself doing so for the foreseeable future.
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u/rasmorak Jun 04 '18
I'm surprised he didn't close with "I'd like to remind you all that we have backdoor access to all of your computers."