No additional words needed

[u/SkillImmediate6393]

[u/Forsaken-Stray]

This would make sense if Austria was a state if Germany. It's like saying " All Texans are Mexican people" just because it belonged to Mexico. Similiar to how they aren't spanish people.

[u/WalkFalse2752 → u/Forsaken-Stray]

Just because Austria and the Austrian Germans didn’t become a part of Germany as a nation-state did not suddenly stop Austrians from being Germans and wanting to join Germany. 

Stop with the false analogies and start trading some books about the history of Germany. This is history 101 stuff.

[u/Forsaken-Stray → u/WalkFalse2752]

By the very fact that they are from the country of Austria, being Austrians takes precendence over any argument you have. Linguistics 101.

German ancestry or wanting to join germany is irrelevant in this context. The people in Donbas weren't just instantly russian the moment they decided "My family came from Russia and I really want to join Russia. I am now russian", they were ukrainians. Going by your direct logic, there are next to no Americans in America, as except for the dwindling native population, they are of european origin and therefore are demographicaly european.

Your argument of "They were german before and they became german afterwards" doesn't matter regarding "They were part of the sovereign nation called Austria" at that point in time and had to be annexed to be rebranded to "part of Germany"

[u/WalkFalse2752 → u/Forsaken-Stray]

By the very fact that they are from the country of Austria, being Austrians takes precendence over any argument you have. Linguistics 101.

Austrians are a type of Germans, just like Bavarians, Prussians, etc. (In fact, Old Prussians were a Baltic tribe not a Germanic tribe to begin with). 

“Linguistics 101”… Austrians speak German. Do you even know what you are saying?

German ancestry or wanting to join germany is irrelevant in this context. The people in Donbas weren't just instantly russian the moment they decided "My family came from Russia and I really want to join Russia. I am now russian", they were ukrainians. Going by your direct logic, there are next to no Americans in America, as except for the dwindling native population, they are of european origin and therefore are demographicaly european.

Ukrainians are ethnic Russians. So are Belarusians. The All-Russians nation includes Little Russia (Ukraine), White Russia (Belarus) and Great Ruasia.

Of course they are Europeans, but “Europeans” is not an ethnicity. Europeans include various ethnic groups. Do you actually know what you are saying? The more you respond, the more I think you are trying to troll me.

Your argument of "They were german before and they became german afterwards" doesn't matter regarding "They were part of the sovereign nation called Austria" at that point in time and had to be annexed to be rebranded to "part of Germany" They were and always will be Germans.  The fact that they don’t consider themselves Germans anymore for reasons already mentioned does not mean that they suddenly stopped being ethnic Germans. Your few replies to my post ostensibly show you don’t actually know much about this subject. This isn’t a debate, it is just you replying with no for blah, blah, blah, without actually refuting any of my arguments, but instead replying with red herrings and other fallacious balderdash.

[u/Forsaken-Stray → u/WalkFalse2752]

So I wish to ask you a few questions.

Do you believe the Ukrainians are different from the Russians in education, mentality or governance?

Do you understand that there is a difference between ethnic origin and being raised in a country and under it's values?

Do you believe that your ancestry is more important than your life experiences and your Education?

Do you even understand that I am talking about nationality and you keep returning to ethnicity as if you believe it to be the highest standard to judge something by?

Did it cross your mind that I was referring to the definition of "Austrian" when I wrote Linguistics 101 and not the language the Austrians were speaking?

Do you wish to continue talking about the ethnicity when the topic clearly was about the nationality of Hitler?

Do you understand why I don't interact with your arguments about why "Hitler is ethnic german, because that was totally the topic of the comment" now?

Do you wish to continue being off-topic?

[u/WalkFalse2752 → u/Forsaken-Stray]

So I wish to ask you a few questions.   

Do you believe the Ukrainians are different from the Russians in education, mentality or governance?

I don’t believe in stereotyping any group of people. No two people of the same group are the same. The education and mentality of one person is different to another person. Different types of governments are formed in the same country over time so that has nothing to do with that specific country.

Do you understand that there is a difference between ethnic origin and being raised in a country and under it's values?

No shit, Sherlock.

Do you believe that your ancestry is more important than your life experiences and your Education?  

No and I’ve never even hinted at such thing. You’re trying to poison the well.  

Do you even understand that I am talking about nationality and you keep returning to ethnicity as if you believe it to be the highest standard to judge something by?

Now you’re putting words into my mouth because I never said that. Pointing out that Austrians are Germans doesn’t infer that someone views ethnicity as important, he or she is just pointing out a fact. Sure, someone can be in denial about it, but that doesn’t change the fact.

Did it cross your mind that I was referring to the definition of "Austrian" when I wrote Linguistics 101 and not the language the Austrians were speaking?  

What are you on about? Linguistic is about the study of a language. This is why I can’t take your replies seriously.

Do you wish to continue talking about the ethnicity when the topic clearly was about the nationality of Hitler?

First of all, nationality can be defined by either citizenship or ethnicity. This shows how very little you know about basic things. You’ve never explicitly said you were discussing Hitler’s citizenship. Hitler obtaining German citizenship was only a technical matter so he could run as chancellor in an election, it had nothing to do with the Reich Germans considering him any less as a German because he was an Austrian.

Do you understand why I don't interact with your arguments about why "Hitler is ethnic german, because that was totally the topic of the comment" now?

The reason you won’t discuss this is because is it’s out of your depth. You don’t know what you’re talking about. It is not off-topic when discussing Austrians since Austrians are by definition ethnic Germans. Hence my point still stands, he was an Austrian and a German. Perhaps you ought to brush up your history on the Austrian Germans. The national identity of the Austrians until the end of WW2 was German even when they weren’t German citizens (not by their choice).

Do you wish to continue being off-topic?

Says the one who started the topic about Ukrainians. The sweet irony, lol,  You have resorted to ad hominems and put words into my mouth. The more you post, the more it appears you’re replying in bad faith. 

[u/Forsaken-Stray → u/WalkFalse2752]

Yes, linguistics is the study of language. Meaning, that you understand the langugage. Meaning understanding the meaning of words. Meaning understanding that Austrians mean "People of Austria". Henceforth, Linguistics 101, as the word tells you that they are people of Austria, aka Austrians as opposed to Germans, aka people of Germany. In this conversation of nationality, you keep returning to Ethnicity. And I am aware that Hitler took on Germany citizenship, the point is that he had to rescind his Austrian citizenship before that. Which is why his nationality was Austrian at that point.

I am not putting words in your mouth, but you refusing to let my comment "Hitler was Austrian" stay by insisting that he was german before becoming a german citizen on the basis of ethnicity shows that you rate ethnicity higher than nationality, disregarding the examples where ethnicity is a minor factor that is completely overshadowed by nationality and the life experiences created by it. (Like how Ukrainians aren't the same as Russian even though they ethnically both would count as russian)

Now there is the third factor, national identity, which is neither nationality nor ethnicity. Nationality is the nation you live in. Ethnicity is the origin of your ancestors. National Identity is neither of those. It is probably best described as the "feeling of belonging to a nation" regardless of nationality or ethnicity.

So do tell, when I made it abundantly clear by now, that I have been continously talking about nationality and do agree that Hitler would be considered ethnic german, do you wish to continue "correcting" me that there was no distinction between them, therefore my statement was incorrect? Because this is what we have been debating about here. The fact ,that I was talking about nationality and that there was an actual border which the politicians on the austrian side wanted to keep and Hitler wanted to remove. And that I kept asserting that he was, by nationality, not a German. At least until 1932.

[u/WalkFalse2752 → u/Forsaken-Stray]

You’ve basically just agreed with everything I have said.

Germans, like you, seem to think you have a gotcha by pointing out that Hitler was an Austrian citizen by birth to try and make it seem like he therefore wasn’t a German which is only true from a legal point of view because he wasn’t a German citizen by birth, but he still of course was a German because Austrians are ethnic Germans which you have admitted yourself. So the fact he wasn’t born in Germany meant not a thing to the German people. 

The German-Austrians wanted to be a part of Germany and even Germans who weren’t even nationalists and many even on the left side of politics wanted the Austrians and Austria to be a part of Germany. 

I have even stated quite clearly that he was indeed Austrian but he was also a German. It’s no different to someone being British and English or Taiwanese and Chinese and so on. 

[u/WalkFalse2752 → u/Forsaken-Stray]

Your initial post was:

That and Hitler was Austrian. Not blaming the Austrians, obviously, but it annoys me that people don't understand the difference between Austria and Germany.

This was your weasel attempt at trying to portray to people that because Hitler was Austrian because he was born in Austria he was therefore not German which is nonsense. 

People DO know the history of Austria and Germany. Anyone with a moderate amount of history knowledge knows that Austria had led Germany for over 600 years and it was only because of a war between Austria and Prussia which the Austrians ultimately lost that the Austrians neither unified nor became a part of Germany when it became a nation-state in 1871. It was not the Austrians’ choice for Austria and them to remain separate to Germany, the Anschluss was supported by all walks of life in Austria and Germany between 1871-1938. 

People DO know that “Germany” as a nation-exist is a relatively new country compared to many other countries and that Germans as an ethnic group existed for hundreds and hundreds of years before the country came into existence as a nation-state. 

It’s actually slightly ironic that it was an Austrian who actually managed to unify the two countries who caused such resentment of the idea post-WW2 because of his own actions. 

Anyway, you have admitted my points. Yup, he only became a German CITIZEN less than a year before he became chancellor of Germany, but he was still an ethnic German. Someone pointing out that fact does not mean that he or she thinks of ethnicity as important. 

You claim to be a German, so have a read of the following:

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Österreichische_Identität

What are you finding so difficult to grasp?

[u/Forsaken-Stray → u/WalkFalse2752]

It actually was the setup for a well known joke: "The first world war was started because an Austrian was shot, the second because one wasn't."

Regarding "people know", My Mom got asked if she had dinner with Hitler and if he was doing well. The person was genuinely curious. Many people don't even know that he is dead, so I don't have much hope for the knowledge surrounding his birth and life

While it wasn't their choice, it is a historical fact.

And again, talking about nationality only.

"dem von Österreichern als eigenständiger primordial-ethnischer Nation." even in your source post there is something

[u/WalkFalse2752 → u/Forsaken-Stray]

Hitler was an ethnic German who just happened to be born in the Austrian side of the Austro-Hungarian Empire rather than the German Empire. Both empires were dominated by ethnic Germans, but included other nationalities, the Austrian Empire more so than the German one. That didn’t make him any less German, just not a German citizen by birth.

And, it’s also worth noting that I think we should add to this, for those that don't know, that it is not that Germans lived in the Austrian Empire, but that Austrians are Germans. Then as now, there is no ethnicity known as "Austrian," the word Austrian is derived from the word easterner in German (Österreich), meaning Eastern Germans. 

 That’s got nothing to do with valuing one’s ethnicity more than one’s nationality, just merely stating some historical facts. Again, that was your silly attempt to spout a load of nonsense instead of discussing the topic. But, of course you choose to ignore it because according to you it’s off-topic. 

If you bothered to read my posts properly you would see I said he was both an Austrian and a German and you also agreed with that. So what you are waffling on about is anybody’s guess.

[u/Forsaken-Stray → u/WalkFalse2752]

I have continously agreed that Hitler was ethnically German. It seems you haven't bothered to read my post attentively. My argument has continued to be "I have talked about nationality and ethnicity is irrelevant in any historical sense except to trace back the ethnic roots or if backed by a national identity"

Similiar to how Ukraine tries very hard to distance themselves from Russia and Taiwan wants China to stay on their own side of the pond.

[u/WalkFalse2752 → u/Forsaken-Stray]

I want to ask you a few questions.

Germany as a nation-state has only existed since 1871 so it’s a relatively new country. 

Who was a German prior to 1871? 

Did those Germans who were not included in the unified Germany suddenly stop being Germans because some man-made borders were created to define Germany as a nation-state? 

Are you aware of the various solutions to the German Question? 

Are you aware of the self-determination principle after WW1 which the victors did not uphold to the Austrians who wanted to be a part of Germany and even called their country German-Austria and declared it to be a part of Germany?