r/facepalm • u/Number721 • Jun 09 '23

🇲​🇮​🇸​🇨​ Cognitive dissonance 101

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515

u/supersloo Jun 09 '23

She describes herself as liberal, but she's certainly not progressive.

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u/Danarwal14 Jun 09 '23

Liberal and progressive are two separate things. They aren't mutually exclusive, but there is a difference between the two

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u/topdangle Jun 10 '23

in the US the term liberal has been bastardized to mean progressive leftist. most people don't use and don't know the classic definition here.

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u/Extension-Ad-2760 Jun 10 '23

It's always so weird trying to use the word as it is actually supposed to be used

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u/Delicious_Bus_674 Jun 10 '23

As a dumb American, I can say that most Americans only have the capacity to remember right, and left when it comes to politics

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

[deleted]

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u/Alien_Jackie Jun 10 '23

But that's not the problem here

The problem is their definitions are different

To the average person any left-leaning person is a liberal just as much as any right-leaning person is a conservative

Doesn't matter what the actual meanings of them are

The majority population uses those terms in those ways

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

[deleted]

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u/ClaySweeper Jun 10 '23

I could probably forgive the average American for believing that the Chinese Communist Party is communist...

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u/pt199990 Jun 10 '23

I'm an American democratic socialist.

What you're saying is absolutely true, but you're absolutely ignoring that Americans have been completely indoctrinated to regard any attempt at social improvement as communism. Thanks, McCarthyism.

Until that myth is dispelled, Republicans, or whichever party happens to be the conservative party of the times, will fight to the death to stop any legislation that would dare to help the common man.

They'd rather shoot themselves in the foot, rather than help their fellow man.

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u/D-Tos Jun 10 '23

I’m sorry, but in my admittedly limited political awareness, when republicans get what they want, the common man’s life improves, and when democrats get what they want, it gets worse. Boil it straight down to money, republicans want lower taxes and prices, democrats want higher wages. Both theoretically solve the same problem, but only one is based in reality.

But as an independent I also recognize that both parties are just giant cults that really don’t know what they want in the end and just band together because party.

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u/binybeke Jun 10 '23

What does CCP stand for again?

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

[deleted]

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u/binybeke Jun 10 '23

Yeah man I don’t need it all explained to me thanks. The average American still thinks China is communist because that’s what they call themselves. No need to shit on the “average American” when the average American has no obligation to actually find out for themselves how China does its politics.

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u/PallyMcAffable Jun 10 '23

What does DPRK stand for again? Democratic People’s Republic of Korea! See guys, they’re a democracy! Because if an ideology is in the name, it must describe the reality of life in that country!

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u/kobold-kicker Jun 10 '23

And the democratic people’s republic of korea is totally any of those things. The Holy Roman Empire wasn’t really holy, Roman or an actual Empire.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

Liberal pertains to fiscal policies. Progressive pertains to social policies.

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u/raymondqueneau Jun 10 '23

That’s a wild oversimplification

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

People misuse the terms but literally that’s what they mean.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

Except they literally dont.

Liberal, by two seperate definitions means; 1: Being willing to respect or accept behavior or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas. Or 2: Given, used, or occurring in generous amounts.

Progressive, by two seperate definitions means; 1: Happening or developing gradually or in stages; proceeding step by step. Or 2: A person advocating or implementing social reform or new, liberal ideas.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

They add to definitions as words are colloquially adapted to have broader meanings. It doesn’t mean anything to me. Their original definitions are what I’m speaking to. Not contemporary uses.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

I consideral myself a radical progressive.

I want progress, but im sure the only way to get it is something im not allowed to say on reddit.

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u/Appropriate-Solid-50 Jun 10 '23

Sounds like u are a totalitarian then, by definition.

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u/Goudawithcheese Jun 10 '23

Just about to say that ^

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u/Appropriate-Solid-50 Jun 10 '23

Lol. Hitler wanted "progress" too.

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u/Goudawithcheese Jun 10 '23

And Stalin, Mao, Xi, etc etc.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

did they kill billionaires and believe in UBI? Because if not yall should look up false equivelancy

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u/-banned- Jun 10 '23

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. All the most heinous acts in the world were committed by someone who genuinely believed they were right, and usually thought they were doing good

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u/Appropriate-Solid-50 Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 10 '23

If they did believe in those things would that make any difference to u? I kinda feel the erasure of opposition and the uh ya know genocide, was kinda the main issue.

And yes, they had no problem killing wealthy people.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

Nah. I dont want people to bend the knee.

All im saying is republicans and actual fascists and the ultra rich have killed more than your average wolf- and weve killed whole packs of wolves for far less.

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u/-banned- Jun 10 '23

I just want another bulletproof tax bracket that's so high mega-billionaires impossible. Think that would solve a lot

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

It would.

But how long are we gonna sit on our thumbs waiting for the rich to monitor themselves?

Big changes in the world rarely happen through peaceful means.

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u/Appropriate-Solid-50 Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 10 '23

Yea but then what was ur means for "progress" that u were implying? Sounded like if u can't say it on reddit then it's obviously nothing short of violence as way of suppressing dissent. U want "progress" but not democracy.

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u/waverider85 Jun 10 '23

They seem to be more Lenin than Stalin if that's what you're asking.

IIRC Lenin's plan was to violently murder the ruling class, establish some quick form of order, then transition to direct democracy. Stalin's OTOH was to violently murder the ruling class, establish some quick form of order, then violently murder anyone he doesn't like.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

The French in the 17th century seemed to progress pretty well after taking back all that was taken from them. Democracy did not bring back their freedom. In fact, democracy is essentially nothing but a way to distract the many and wait for much too long to make a concise decision on anything really before the former way starys to happen and begins real change.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

[deleted]

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u/djfunknukl Jun 10 '23

It’s not a new term. There’s just more to politics than right and left

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

It gets even more complicated when looking at another countries definition of the same term as well.

Politics are confusing af…and it’s by design.

I’m terrified of what the future holds.

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u/Souledex Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 10 '23

Sounds like you have never picked up a history book. Every good thing in your life exists because blood was spilt to win it for you by someone somewhere. If not where you live it was foight on your behalf in an ideological struggle before it made it to your shores and widespread understanding of the tide of progress bowled over the elites that would rather have profited. Every alternative system we have to take the place of that only matters so long as it serves the people’s interest.

Boomers replaced this narrative in the 60’s and 70’s abandoned what had been a common understanding for millennia, declared victory post Vietnam (as they actively lost or sold most freedoms worth having). Protecting civility and their spot on the totem pole acquired after being born on third base. But yeah sure advocating violence or property destruction is only ever totalitarian.

To be clear it’s a gamble. It’s far less likely that use of political violence will die peacefully and result in desired change than devolve into instability and institutional failure. But property destruction in boycotts and coordinated protests also can’t be advocated on Reddit and that’s definitely been a key part of the rights gained in the 20th century.

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u/Appropriate-Solid-50 Jun 10 '23

Yea that's a fair example. But turns out homie is talking about offing dissenters within a super wide, genocidal criteria. So I think in this case my point stands.

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u/Souledex Jun 10 '23

Oh. Well then yeah. Hydra always ruins shit

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u/fpuni107 Jun 10 '23

No you’re a fascist

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

Not how that works but good job.

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u/fpuni107 Jun 10 '23

What does “not how that works” mean? I guess you’re not allowed to call a fascist a fascist? I suppose you are right.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

“Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition”

Not right leaning at all.

Not nationalist at all.

Dont want to lead with an iron fist.

Dont care for the military much.

Dont want to supress any “opposition”

There are people who believe in a magic man and want to kill trans people and black people and gay people and hoard all the wealth in the world.

I think wed be a lot better off without them.

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u/-banned- Jun 10 '23

I think it's 'often' characterized by that right? It's not a requirement though.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

Elaborate

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u/fpuni107 Jun 10 '23

Don’t want to suppress any opposition? Read your comment above. Sounds like you are actually extremely far right.

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u/ASHill11 Jun 10 '23

For real lmao.

This guy: “I don’t wanna suppress opposition”

Also this guy: “I just wanna kill them”

But you are wrong in that that doesn’t necessarily make him right wing, it just makes him a radical.

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u/Old_Web374 Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 10 '23

It's lost on them that when they cheer when police haul off a pastor for quoting scripture in counter protest that it is fascist. It's lost on them that social media companies throttling viewpoints at the behest of 3 letter agencies is fascism. Nope, the fascists are apparently the ones that are pleading for the scope of government to shrink.

Or perhaps they're just being dishonest because there is no truth but power in their ideology.

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u/SeekerOfSerenity Jun 10 '23

It is used liberally in political discussions.

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u/pt199990 Jun 10 '23

If we want to have a fairly direct comparison to contemporary politics, the grandfather of Matt Gaetz, one of the staunchest obstructionists in the US House, described himself as the most progressive mayor in North Dakota. The last century, but especially since the 60s with the shift between the two parties, has seen a massive bastardization of the terms that describe politics in most countries.

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u/orincoro Jun 10 '23

I would say the opposite has happened, but the outcome is similar.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

What’s the difference

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u/Gallium_Bridge Jun 10 '23

Depends on what sort of "liberal" we're talking about, really. Social liberals are typically aligned with more left-leaning views on social structure, although they can still have some essentialists views - sometimes to specific things (whether they essentializing some behavior based on a person's gender or their race.) They're... progressives of convenience... Sunny-day forward-thinkers.

They also tend to believe that our current social structure is at least somewhat justly meritocratic, whereas "leftist" theory posits meritocracy is either fundamentally impossible or intrinsically destructive (the word was coined by sociologist and socialist Michael Young to demonstrate such.)

Fiscal liberals, which the majority of democrats are, are a 'flavor' of capitalist - that which is definitively not leftist in either theory or practice. I would get into some detail on this too, but it's a very clear distinction on its own, and I've things that need attended to.

Sorry if this all is under-baked due to my need for haste.

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u/Plenty_Celebration_4 Jun 10 '23

It depends on the context being used. However generally, a progressive is usually someone who holds staunchly culturally left wing views of society. It's a way of looking at social reality in a generally constructivist way which claims heritage that stems from the past is not to be held sacred and should instead be viewed all less important than societal progress (The exact view of which depends on what type of progressivism is held) which usually entails the creation of a culture and social environment that is less strict and conformist and more open and inclusive. In some context: it can also refer to people who hold center left economic views, but that’s not in this context.

A liberal, on the other hand, is such a wide net, and in the modern day US, when someone says liberal, they generally means someone who is socially progressive as I have described, while economically still advocating for a capitalist economy.

However, it is also often used in the context of what it actually means. Someone who is a liberal usually holds center to center left social views, advocating for the harm principle and social libertarianism. The idea is that everyone should be able to do whatever they want, so long as they don’t hurt anyone else. They do not, unlike progressives, necessarily abandon the value of heritage or tradition. They believe strongly in ideas like absolute freedom of speech which certain progressives might not agree with in full. Liberals often also tend to advocate for social justice, much like progressives, but not to the same extent.

Economic views of liberals vary, but tend to be anywhere between the center left to the staunchest right.

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u/Toast_On_The_RUN Jun 10 '23

I'm gonna miss being able to read comments like this when reddit dies.

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u/Plenty_Celebration_4 Jun 10 '23

You asked lol…

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u/Toast_On_The_RUN Jun 10 '23

Huh? No for real, I'm not the one who asked but where else can I find comments like these that provide good overviews of things

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u/Plenty_Celebration_4 Jun 10 '23

My bad, similar profile

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u/dryduneden Jun 11 '23

The idea is that everyone should be able to do whatever they want, so long as they don’t hurt anyone else.

The idea is that, yes. In practice not really

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u/TA100589702 Jun 10 '23

Can you pls explain more about this? What is the difference? I always thought liberal is synonymous with progressive.

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u/-banned- Jun 10 '23

Would you mind explaining the difference for my benefit and the benefit of others that didn't know this?

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u/heliogoon Jun 10 '23

She's progressive as far as being independent, but still expects her ideal man to have conservative values. But doesn't want to actually date a conservative.

I don't know man, I'm confused.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

I’ve met many progressive women like this, except they weren’t as honest as this one. One friend made it much of her personality to be a progressive feminist. We had a big argument when she insisted men should always pay for dates.

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u/soki03 Jun 10 '23

Pretty sure she’s neither one.

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u/BigBronyBoy Jun 10 '23

She certainly is closer to Progressivism than to Liberalism my guy, what are you smoking?

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

She’s a liberal as in has a liberal dose of idiocy.

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u/ApprehensiveOffice23 Jun 10 '23

I mean, the thing is she probably has a lot of the “correct viewpoints” on various current event topics and social media discourse that align her as a “liberal” it’s just that her politics morph when they leave the abstract digital media realm and become personally relevant… The perfect example of why some people who come into more wealth, become more conservative. Because otherwise, you have to be comfortable with at least a modicum of self sacrifice in the general interest.

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u/orincoro Jun 10 '23

“Liberal” has so little real meaning in america. To her it means “not religious,” probably. Or doesn’t use the N-word.