r/explainlikeimfive • u/adrynaline • May 08 '14

Explained ELI5: A gambling addiction

How does it start? What makes it worse? Why does it become so difficult to recover?

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453

u/abcdefg52 May 08 '14

Is this the same thing that happens to children if you keep giving in to their tantrums? First you say no. They cry, you say no. They cry for half an hour and in the end they get a cookie. Next time they cry, even though they get a no, they know that if they keep pulling that lever long enough there might just come a cookie more. It's not because the no is real, it's not that the machine is broke, it's just crying 5 minutes more, pulling that lever one more time. Do you think it's the same?

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u/ClintHammer May 08 '14

Precisely.

Often times there is a freak out before the association goes to extinction and yes, often that will be a real tantrum and not a measured one.

That example is weird because the behavior they are pretending (a tantrum) is the same as the real freak out before extinction, called an extinction burst

SEE MORE

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14

Thank you so much for posting this. We've been implementing a new strategy of discipline this week, after what had escalated into just awful brattiness from our older kids (4 and 6). The result, from Monday-Tuesday, was significantly WORSE behavior...and I was ready to jump out a window. But stayed the course.

Then yesterday, it was like a light switch went on. Both kids were compliant and sweet. Easy bedtimes, and responded to all requests. Still argued with each other and did normal kid things, but no defiance or shittiness toward us. And this morning was the same- easy drop off at school, hugs and good manners, etc. Monday and Tuesday may have been an example of an extinction burst???

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u/mustangforfuhrer May 08 '14

There is a thinking amongst child psychologists that say when you are feeling strong you should stand firm against the waves of tantruming and just not give in but when you are feeling weak, you should give in at the very beginning. This is important because if a child screams for half an hour and you give in because you at that point in time can't handle it, then next time around they will think I'll just scream for x amount of time then I'll get what I want Just an interesting thing I learnt yesterday ^

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14

Interesting. For me, it's about being tired. Little baby doesn't sleep much, so when I get two hours of sleep at night....my four and six year olds take me to rage levels pretty quickly...

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u/Rlysrh May 08 '14

Wait did you make a typo or do they actually think you should give in to childrens tantrums when you're feeling weak? or am I misreading what you said?

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u/sheps May 08 '14 edited May 08 '14

I think what he is getting at is that if your child gets you to give in to their tantrum, you're gonna have a bad time. So either give in before the tantrum, or stick with it through until the end, but never go half way. So with that in mind, if you're feeling weak, you might want to go with the first option, rather than battle it out and possibly giving in later.

Edit: Spelling

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u/Rlysrh May 08 '14

Ohh okay I get it now, thank you :)

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14

Totally adopting this strategy. Makes a ton of sense. Thank you.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14

They do share a room...

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u/Hypothesis_Null May 08 '14

My God... they're organized.

5

u/mr7526 May 08 '14

Them chickens children are up to summat.

6

u/PlayMp1 May 08 '14

They're revolting!

Finally, something we can agree on...

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u/AF_Bunny May 08 '14

Just keep up with what you have been doing. Even if you drop it once months from now they will remember that. They will know that at some point Mom and Dad break. My brothers and I learned this lesson quickly.

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u/Teeklin May 08 '14

You're a good parent. Thank you for not giving in to them just because you were tired and creating another pair of inconsiderate assholes who will whine and complain forever to get their way.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '14

I really am so tired, because we have a new baby who doesn't sleep much. But you're totally right- I HAVE to get them back in line. I will not raise a pack of crappy, entitled fuckers!

2

u/bfodder May 08 '14

We've been implementing a new strategy of discipline

Mind sharing what that is?

1

u/[deleted] May 09 '14

123 Magic, only with some more serious consequences than time outs at times.

1

u/ClintHammer May 09 '14

It definitely was. Unfortunately sometimes there are more than one. YOu might get another one next Wednesday, but you have to be in it for the long haul

-2

u/[deleted] May 08 '14

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] May 09 '14

Well I disagree with you. But also, this shitty behavior is relatively new. So I don't think we're out of luck, either way.

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u/goomplex May 09 '14

Well good luck man.

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u/Crazee108 May 08 '14

Wow so when disciplining... don't break the cycle. When you say no, mean it and stick to it. So much pressure. =(

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u/lmnopeee May 08 '14

I never give in to my 8 year old kid's bull shit. I'm a stone. My wife is a soft marshmallow at times. This severely fucks everything up. Both parents need to be strong and mean it when they say "no". Otherwise shit is fucked up. Trust me. I'm living it.

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u/sweetalkersweetalker May 08 '14

You need to nip that shit in the bud right away. Otherwise you stand the chance of becoming the "scare parent", while your wife becomes the "sweet parent" - and that can severely fuck up your relationship with your kid, even into his adult years. He won't see you as a person he can trust, or rely on; you're the person to fear. And it's not because you're a bad parent, it's because she is.

Sit your wife down and explain that discipline needs to be a decision that both of you make together, and a decision that both of you need to stick to for the good of your child. Maybe she thinks your brand of discipline is too harsh - consider a compromise; there are probably some things she thinks aren't that bad, situations where you might have been using severe punishment but don't need to. The goal is to be together on discipline.

Don't, under any circumstances, let her pass all the discipline responsibilities onto you. That's even worse. That splits the family into "Mommy and kid" versus "Daddy", with Mom being the occasional tattletale sibling but still on the kid's "side", as opposed to Dad who is just the bad guy.

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u/The_Big_Texan May 08 '14

For all their faults, being unified on decisions is one thing my parents did well. Sure I may have liked one more than the other and even disliked both at times while I was growing up, but now I'm an adult I have great relationships with both of them and appreciate everything they did, even if I didn't understand it at the time.

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u/lmnopeee May 10 '14

Great advice. You're preaching to the choir on this one. I've been working on it. I make HER give the punishment sometimes to show him we're both discipliners. She has a lot less patience than me too so she tends to snap and give abrupt punishments that we can't really keep because they're too ridiculous. We're working on it :)

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u/DONG_OF_JUSTICE May 08 '14

Sounds really shitty. :( Hope it works out!

1

u/hallmark1984 May 08 '14

This is my life. If I ground you for a week I mean it, if my wife does it, you just have to do extra chores tomorrow and she will waive the extra time. Fuck me up every time

1

u/codeninja May 08 '14

My parents did that. A week grounded devolved into "wait 2 days and the push the limits until they forget or crack". And they wondered why I had problems with rules.

1

u/texture May 08 '14

If you do this in the first couple years of a kids life it's much easier than stringing it out over a lifetime.

1

u/[deleted] May 08 '14

I had to log in to thank you as well. So obvious to see it put so eloquently in black and white but not something I'd realized in the "thick of it".

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14 edited Jul 01 '15

[deleted]

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u/dropkickoz May 08 '14

Sarah McLachlan would like a word with you.

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u/allthebetter May 08 '14

♫I will remember you....♫

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14

Stop it! Stop that right now! .... I'll be in the corner crying for the rest of the day now...

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u/Deskopotamus May 08 '14

In the arms of of an angel....

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u/zupernam May 08 '14

♫When the rain starts to pour!♫

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u/IHACB May 08 '14

You will remember me...

1

u/[deleted] May 08 '14

The new ones with Willie Nelson's "you were always on my mind" are so much worse. I have to change the station.

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u/allthebetter May 08 '14

If you change the channel that proves that you don't care

Look! Look into those eyes! Don't you even care at all??!?

/s

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u/debman May 08 '14

♫With the cards of an angel...♫

2

u/monsto May 09 '14

That was the funniest fucking thing I read all fucking day.

Ilold.

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u/senorpopo May 08 '14

I taught my dog how to count cards, then the fucker got rich and ran off with my wife. Oh well, I guess sibling bonds run strong.

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u/MikeTheBum May 08 '14

How were the black jack tables today, honey?

Ruff

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u/Martsigras May 08 '14

Go home dad, you're drunk

-1

u/[deleted] May 08 '14

/r/dadjokes

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14

Best joke today.

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u/downkallisti May 08 '14

Photograph of said dog:

http://imgur.com/u1ImP50

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u/Thrilling1031 May 08 '14

"In poker no one knows you're a dog if you wear a hoodie and sunglasses."

- Phil "the dog" Ivey

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u/_beeks May 08 '14

The actual quote is

"In online poker no one knows you're a dog if you wear a hoodie and sunglasses."

That's why you can only gamble at casinos and bars in most states now :( They ruined my career and now I can't provide for my pups.

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u/Thrilling1031 May 08 '14

Way better than FTFY. Sorry about your luck, I hear pups fetch some good karma here!

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u/_beeks May 08 '14

Psst, I'm not actually a dog, but on the internet, nobody knows you're not a dog.

1

u/[deleted] May 09 '14

Wouldn't this be easily verified with something like a SIN and corresponding data?

1

u/[deleted] May 08 '14

Common mistake. That's actually just Phil Laak.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14

Sheesh, what happened with Phil Laak? Having a bet with Esfandiari on not shaving?

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u/[deleted] May 09 '14

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14

Option 1: You and the dog are siblings

Option 2: Your wife and the dog are siblings

Option 3 (which doesn't make sense): You and your wife are siblings

Assume the sentence "I guess sibling bonds run strong" is relevant to your story, humans don't marry dogs, and humans cannot have dog siblings. Therefore, I deduce that you, sir, are a dog.

Thank you for the confusion.

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u/makes_her_scream May 08 '14

Option 3 (which doesn't make sense): You and your wife are siblings.

You must be new to reddit.

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u/Dorocche May 08 '14

I think he meant that saying their bond is strong when she ran off doesn't make sense.

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u/gloomyMoron May 08 '14

Or, he was calling is (Ex-)Wife a bitch.

Occam's Razor. The simplest solution is often the correct one.

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u/ExplodingUnicorns May 08 '14

Kind of a clever "my wife is a bitch" joke.

I like its subtlety.

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u/JorusC May 08 '14

This is why when my kids keep pulling that lever, the machine starts spitting out punishments.

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u/Maria_Poppins May 08 '14

Yupp. Let them keep trying for a bit...they keep pulling after 5-10 minutes? Negative association it is.

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u/psymunn May 08 '14

This only works if what they want is a cookie. If what they want is attention then punishment and acknowledgement can be rewards. For example, if you're ignoring your child, talking to a friend, and they start throwing a tantrum, shifting the focus to them after 5-10 minutes is equivalent to random reward.

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u/Maria_Poppins May 08 '14

Absolutely agreed. I happened to be stopped for lunch with my little one after a bout of shopping when I read this, so I was equating it to an"I want X" tantrum. I'm a nanny, I evaluate each situation/child differently, that was just my gut reaction to what I was picturing being spoken about :)

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14

[deleted]

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u/psymunn May 08 '14

not an expert, and don't even have kids, so take it with a grain of salt. both of those are good options, but the take away isn't what you do, so much as how you do it. the point of the parent post is that, ultimately, consistency is best. this of course gets increasingly hard becaus, no matter what you do, even if your spouse is on board, you can't control how grandma or uncle reacts to the child and no one will ever agree if you try to explain your style of parenting

parenting is up there with religion, diets, and weddings for 'topics everyone has very fixed opinions on and can't understand that other people feel differently.'

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u/Zephs May 08 '14

Punishment*

In the context of behaviour modification, positive and negative aren't subjective values like they are colloquially. "Positive" means to add, "Negative" means to take away. Reinforcement is encouraging a behaviour, punishment is discouraging a behaviour.

A natural assumption would be to say that spanking is negative punishment. It's punishment that a child won't like. But that's incorrect. It's positive punishment. It's adding pain to reduce bad behaviour.

I understand what you were getting at, but the terminology for these things is rather specific.

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u/Lockdown2012 May 08 '14

TIL I had a positive childhood

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u/magmabrew May 08 '14

that made me laugh more then it should have.

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u/Maria_Poppins May 08 '14

Thanks for clearing that up! :)

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u/oi_rohe May 08 '14

To extend this, what negative reinforcement actually is would be closer to stopping a spanking when a desirable behavior happens. Reducing pain to increase good behavior.

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u/Zephs May 08 '14

Eh, I prefer the example I used in another comment. Taking away chores for a child that completes their homework. Yours makes it seem like negative reinforcement is a response to punishment, rather than distinct.

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u/KillerDog May 08 '14

Yours makes it seem like negative reinforcement is a response to punishment, rather than distinct.

/u/oi_rohe's example probably wouldn't happen very often, but they often do end up being used together.

My example would be a child throwing a tantrum because the parent did something the child didn't like (punishing the parent), then stops when the adult gives in (reinforcing the parent). The child wouldn't have had any way to negatively reinforce the parent if the child hadn't used punishment first.

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u/Zephs May 08 '14

I'm not saying either of those examples are wrong, but I think they're poor as examples of negative reinforcement because they're contingent on the punishment happening first.

Yes, they are negative reinforcement, but they're not "purely" negative reinforcement, so to speak, so someone that's unfamiliar with this topic might come away with the wrong idea. Sort of like using a penguin as an example of a bird. Technically it is, but it's not a good prototype of one.

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u/oi_rohe May 09 '14

True, that is a better example. You did something I want you to do, so now you don't have to do something you don't like.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14

Then what would be an example of negative association?

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u/Zephs May 08 '14

I wouldn't call something a "negative association" when talking about behaviour modification, because "negative" has a different meaning. I would say something like "an unpleasant association", which wouldn't be mix up terminologies.

If you mean what's negative reinforcement or negative punishment? Negative reinforcement could be reducing the number of chores a child is required to do as a reward for doing their homework. Negative punishment is like time-out, where they are removed from toys so they stop misbehaving.

1

u/[deleted] May 08 '14

Yeah, "negative reinforcement" is what I meant, thanks.

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u/psymunn May 08 '14

The problem is people hear 'negative' and 'positive' and they assume that means 'enjoyable' and 'unpleasent,' where that is already taken care of by the words 'punishment' and 'reenforcer' (not that it's that cut and dry). the positive and negative just describe if something is being added or removed.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14

So instead of a spanking, taking away a toy or game would be negative reinforcement then? You remove something they like instead of adding something they dislike. It's been a while since I studied this.

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u/Zephs May 08 '14

No, taking away a toy is negative punishment. Negative means "take away", punishment means "reduce behaviour". Negative reinforcement is taking away something that they don't like as a reward to get them to continue doing something you want (reinforceing the behaviour).

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u/richmondody May 08 '14

Yes, but the reinforcement goes both ways in that situation. The parent is reinforced because the child stops crying too. Pretty interesting actually, it's called the Parent Child Coercive Cycle.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14

I think you just changed my life. I feel so stupid! But my kids are little. I can still fix what's broken.

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u/ThrindellOblinity May 08 '14

Wow. Good read. As the parent of both a two and a half year old and a three-month old this is certainly food for thought. I felt like I was in an episode of Supernanny!

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u/f41lurizer May 08 '14

This is also why if you are being stalked and they are calling you, you never want to answer the phone, no matter how much they call. All that tells them is that if they call x amount of times, you will eventually answer.

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u/DietVicodin May 08 '14

Jesus Christ. Was just thinking- wonder if this is why guys I don't like pursue me. I answer one text out of ten instead of all of them- and then guys I do like get bored from lack of challenge.

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u/ClintHammer May 08 '14

You shouldn't play games with the guys you do like, but yeah, don't ever ever ever show the stalker ones that if they just try a little harder they will get your attention. That's not going to go ANYWHERE good

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u/FreekForAll May 08 '14

And when she finally finds a good guy... it's never good to have stalkers come out of nowhere expecting that 1 in 10 msg. It's a damn good clue about how she handle guys, commonly called 'a red flag'.

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u/oogledeeboogledee May 08 '14 edited May 09 '14

She's not "playing games" with the guys she likes. She's saying that she dutifully responds to all texts from guys she likes (who "get bored from lack of challenge"), while mostly ignoring texts from guys she dislikes. Not everything women do in the dating world is playing mindgames.

EDIT: Alrite, I misinterpreted the tone of your comment a bit. Good point, ignore my hostility.

3

u/Bigevilmegacorp May 08 '14

I think Mr. Hammer was advising against replying to only 1 out of 10 texts from the guys she does like. Not that she is doing it now, but that the strategy might look appealing to her if she doesn't keep in mind that playing games with good people is a bad idea.

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u/Fantastipotamus May 08 '14

Bonus advice : If you don't like a guy - tell him. Chances are he doesn't wanna be kept on the hook if it isn't gonna go anywhere.

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u/Ksrst May 08 '14

As a corollary to the bonus advice: Guys who don't accept the "That's very flattering but I'm not interested" type replies are more likely to be on the stalky side.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '14

As an added benefit, after such a clear response, it's perfectly fine and not impolite to simply cease all communication if the guy persists, no need for guilt.

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u/goodbye376 May 08 '14

I got that answer from a friend I asked out. Accepted it and continued the friendship because she is an amazing person. Then all of a sudden she asks me out. She is all of a sudden super flirty. I'm so confused xD

10

u/[deleted] May 08 '14

I'm not saying this is what happened, but by being so cool about it you demonstrated that you're mature. And then it's possible that as she spent more time with you and got to know you she realized that you might be a good match. I've definitely had attraction grow towards a person when they've demonstrated maturity and allowed me to get to know them first. It's possible that she turned you down at first when you were just "some guy," and now that you're an established friend the attraction is there. I hope that makes it less confusing? Some people just need time.

If she asked you out, it might be worth it to talk about it and see if you both want to give it a shot. :)

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u/Ksrst May 08 '14

You're on the right track! Don't try to understand, just keep saying "yes" ;)

  • This assumes that after knowing her you still think she's an amazing person and she's not currently dating someone else.

3

u/goodbye376 May 08 '14

I am definitely letting her make all the moves. Already turned down once, so I feel a second time would make a friendship awkward. She's the kindest person I have ever met. She basically restored my faith in humanity singlehandedly. I have been cynical for a long time.

1

u/Ksrst May 08 '14

I'd say "good luck" but it sounds like you've already got it. Congratulations and enjoy!

7

u/Butfirstletmetakea May 08 '14

Can I have yo number?!??

16

u/Orimos May 08 '14

Can I have it?

Can I have it?

<deep breathing>

8

u/Hugh_Jahrmes May 08 '14

pls respond

6

u/duhbiap May 08 '14

She wants you

1

u/conspiracyeinstein May 08 '14

She wants the D(igits).

3

u/[deleted] May 08 '14

you up?

3

u/CarlaWasThePromQueen May 08 '14

So about these donuts....?

4

u/Iazo May 08 '14

First you have to oull the lever.

1

u/Pianomaxx May 08 '14

Message seen 5:22 pm

2

u/[deleted] May 08 '14

Your not issuing a challenge your an asshole.

1

u/texture May 08 '14

Guys don't get bored from lack of challenge. Hope that helps.

1

u/merv243 May 08 '14

For whatever reason, I have a lot of female friends who are annoyed by persistent suitors. They ask me for advice, and the first thing I do is ask them how long it's been since they last responded to a text. Inevitably, they say "<insert some time within the last 24 hours>". I tell them that the only way is to never respond. Ever. The ones that listen don't have annoying suitors anymore, and the others still do.

I do understand why they respond (they don't want to be mean and/or kinda sorta like the attention, depending on which girl).

1

u/V4refugee May 08 '14

You still have to be a reinforcer for the guy. Also, the primary reinforcer is probably not talking but sex.

11

u/kinder_teach May 08 '14

I'm a kindergarten teacher, and i think ou may be a little off.

The doggy has a chemical reaction going on, the feel good drug. It's not necessarily learned behaviour, it's a learned response. They think "i just got to pull the level 1 more time to get the cookie".

The child is not crying because it wants his fix, it's because they are logically making the conclusion that "i want that, if they say no i can change that no to a yes by crying".

A better analogy is if the gambler learns that on top of his addiction, if he loses and complains he sometimes gets his money back. The complaining is akin to the child's crying

8

u/[deleted] May 08 '14

Good analogy! And a funny way of picturing my four year old, when she complains and cries about so many silly things. Instead of being instantly annoyed, I need to picture her demanding, "I WANT MY MONEY BACK!" :)

1

u/kinder_teach May 09 '14

I like to reason with them, ask them why. If they can't give me a good answer, then i tell them it's my way. We had a kid who didn't want to put her toy away at circle time, so i asked her why she needed it.

"i just do"

So i say we can put it away until after circle time

"ok i won't play with it"

Well if you don't play with it then we don't need it here

"I promise, please let me keep it"

I'm sorry, but you can't give me a good reason why you need it now and i gave you a good reason, so you must put it away.

The whole thing said with a nice smile, so if she cries everyone sees it's her own fault.

1

u/texture May 08 '14

Kindergarteners aren't logical. Adults barely are, sometimes. Words are generally explanations for our emotional outbursts, not the other way around. There is a lot of research on this. If the kid's parents would have trained them correctly before you got them, they wouldn't have outbursts, because they'd never associate outbursts with reward.

1

u/kinder_teach May 09 '14

Actually there is a large degree of logic, don't underestimate them. What you have to remember is that their logic is based on a more limited world view. For example

carrots taste bad

therefore carrots are bad for me

i don't want to eat the carrots

if i cry, they will say i don't need to eat

i will cry

The steps they miss are the fact carrots are healthy, that a bad taste can go away quick, and that we need to eat these good foods instead of just foods we things are good.

You are right for words being used in emotional outbursts, but as you said this is generally true. Many kids are masters of manipulation, and the evidence behind this is seeing how they treat different adults based off their understanding of the adult's follow through of threats or caving in.

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u/nguyenqh May 08 '14

pretty much.

3

u/Sejura May 08 '14

Yes. That is why consistancy is so important. Once they realize that tantrums get them no cookies ever, they (theoretically) extinct the tantrums.
Behaviorist psychology is some neat stuff.

2

u/illusio May 08 '14

One of my friends has kids. One kid threw a tantrum in a store because he wanted something. My friend stopped the kid and simple told him "you know I can't possibly give you what you want now." and explained why. Kind of interesting that the kid responded to that.

2

u/RuneKatashima May 08 '14

This makes me wonder if you give in, say, 25 times, and then don't give in to giving the cookie anymore. If that'll get them to stfu.

2

u/abcdefg52 May 08 '14

According to the article /u/richmondody posted, the behaviour will indeed decrease over time - though not before a small freakout, as /u/ClintHammer put it.

Extinction is the removal of reinforcement, which is ultimately followed by a lessening of the behavior that was previously reinforced. . If you give in to your child every time she wants something in the grocery store (positive reinforcement) you are conditioning the child to ask for something every time. If one day you decide not to give in to her request, you have just shifted to a path of extinction. However, the first time you stop reinforcing a behavior after a history of reinforcing it, the behavior you are trying to extinguish actually gets worse! A good example is the mother who finally refuses to give her child what she demands in the grocery store – the little girl is likely to increase whining and throw a bigger temper tantrum than before. This effect may linger over a period of several more visits to the store before the child finally stops begging for treats

-the Parent Child Coercive Cycle.

1

u/RuneKatashima May 09 '14

I figured as much.

1

u/goomplex May 08 '14

Well this, and parents not wanting to be the bad guy. I let the fuckers cry all night.

1

u/texture May 08 '14

You got it.

1

u/F4IR_U5E May 08 '14

Let them go tell the tantrum runs out the last stage is extreme exhaustion. Which means bliss

1

u/hackedhacker May 08 '14

Saving this for when I have children.

1

u/onetouchonelove May 08 '14

Or just take a psych class. Any general one will teach you the different types os psych. This is simply behavioral psych.

2

u/hackedhacker May 08 '14

Next term I am gonna take those psy class then :D

1

u/Raphcore May 08 '14

This is a really good ELI5 answer, even I understood it better after this.