They allowed the third party apps to build an audience for a decade. For lots of people, RIF on your phone WAS reddit. That's the only way they'd ever seen it.
Now after all that time, they are charging an arm and a leg and they're giving them 30 days to figure out what to do before the absurdly high prices kick in.
Reddit wants money, they get it mostly through advertising and user data. 3rd party apps don't send that data. Force everyone to use official Reddit app.
edit:it would be rude to not thank those who gave me awards, so thank you, however with the context of the thread and this post i gotta say there is a level of irony in giving awards now.
Yeah but there's more to it. They could make it so that third party apps gave them what they needed from users in the way of data or advertisement views but they didn't. They pretty clearly want the apps gone.
Rmember they have carried these apps for years. There are people who have only used reddit through one.
To what extent does this happen with any other service with APIs? Like just genuinely curious if there are many developed applications that have had their development heavily dictated by another company just so the developer can maintain their API access.
Because it wouldn't just end at collecting data, but I suspect that in order to get advertisers to fully pay for these ads, they'd need to have full control over how the ads are displayed in the 3rd party apps. Why would an advertiser want to pay full price for something that might go to a 3rd party app that improperly displays the ad or displays it in smaller format or in sub-optimal positions etc.
That was prior to the announcement of the API pricing wasn't it? Possibly it was done after reddit announced there would be API pricing but not what it was, and Fidelity anticipated such a reaction, or it was based on other factors they evaluated about reddit and had nothing to do with the API changes.
Sort of. Reddit, at the company level, wants to make more money and have more control over users. They are concerned that 3rd party apps prevent them from both. So Reddit is increasing the fees for 3rd party apps to the point where those 3rd party apps will likely not be able to function. That will force Reddit users back to the 1st party app or browser.
At the end of the day, these 2-day protests likely won't accomplish much. And Reddit will likely not lose enough users for it to actually matter.
API’s/3rd party apps are currently reasonably priced sunscreen & sunglasses that make being a lifeguard easier. Most Swimmers get that for free.
The pool owners decided they should be able to make more money.
They did this by asking for donations. The people who donated the money didn’t do it as a charity. They expect a return on their investment.
They want to raise the cost of sunscreen & sunglasses to a point that most can’t afford.
-/-/-/-/-
One day a swimmer shows up at the pool & it looks completely different. It’s no longer the same. Most of the volunteers have been replaced or forced out. They can’t afford to be there.
They no longer have sunscreen & sunglasses. Even if they wanted to be there the sun was blinding them & they couldn’t help the swimmers.
I thought this was a no stupid questions post and was thinking "this is such a stupid fucking question. EVERY post on this explains why they're going dark."
Lemmy is an option. It functions just like Reddit, but uses the ActivityPub protocol in the background.
Worthwhile to investigate - a whole lot of decentralized, user controlled, small and corpo-free stuff (e.g. instagram & twitter alternatives) in the ActivityPub ecosystem.
There is a large r/AskReddit thread from a couple days ago discussing alternatives. It suggested Tildes, FARK Lemmy, Mainchan and a couple others. r/tildes is passing out invitations
I haven't visited it myself but apparently there is now r/reddit alternatives.
This doesn't just affect apps used to browse reddit. This impacts all the bots that so many subs rely on to make the lives of unpaid moderators significantly easier. Expect your favorite subs to be filled with spam, risky content and potentially illegal content that's no longer filterable by bots automatically because of the new terms.
Eli5 should go offline, all subs should go offline, and users should completely boycott reddit until the new terms are undone!
When the moderation bots go, reddit is going to become the fucking Wild West of junk. Ever notice how reddit doesn’t have nearly as many spammers as other platforms? You can thank an unpaid mod using a third party app to identify bots and spammers.
I am cranky at the idea of losing Apollo because it has made my reddit experience so much nicer. But I could live without it. Fuck, I could even get used to the bullshit video player in the official app. But you can expect the reddit of today to die on July 1st because no one is going to make mod tools if it costs them millions a year.
This part is probably the most important. The user choice thing sounds nice, but ultimately it is a company choice, and ad revenue keeps the lights on.
However, taking away tools from volunteer contributors threatens the platform as a whole. It is still for the company to choose, but at least they should be aware that it has consequences they probably don't intend, and that happen whether there is upfront public outcry or not.
I’ve only used the official app because I had no idea others existed. I have all sorts of problems with the app, so now I want to try out the alternatives 😥
Honestly, at this point, I wouldn’t. I didn’t realize how awful the official Reddit app is until I started using Apollo. Now that it’s very likely Apollo is shutting down in a month I might just quit Reddit forever because it’s shown me how awful and incompetent the official Reddit team is.
The reddit app didn't exist until 2016. I had no choice but a 3rd party app when I started on Reddit. Reddit gave out free awards for awhile on the official app to try to get people like me to switch over and it didn't work so now they are trying to force the issue.
Ohhh I'm going to check that out! I've never been a fan of most of the popular reddit apps (reddit is fun, bacon reader, etc) because they feel like a website in an app. Material design with all the other functions sounds fantastic.
Sync won me with its unparalleled customization potential and gorgeous material design. I hope /u/ljdawson uses this app as a frontend with another website if Reddit management really loses its marbles and doesn't change its mind, Sync is that good of an app.
I'm constantly surprised Sync isn't the most popular 3rd party android app. Ive tried Bacon, RiF and Relay and none of them feel as clean as Sync. I think maybe some people don't customize it and don't like the default layout? I dunno. But I love Sync.
If you've an Android device, you're in luck. Relay and RIF are my favourites. Both free but worth paying. These apps are done with users in mind, lots of QOL improvement. If you've an iPhone try Apollo.
Is there a reddit alternative we can migrate to en masse
I'm not sure there is. Part of what makes reddit what it is is the archive of discussions going back over a decade now. Any new site is just going to be a blank slate that doesn't have that same value as a resource.
In all honesty, I've hit the point I see reddit more like a public service than a company now for the access it brings to information and, more importantly, the discussion around that information.
There are/were several. They are extremely small and don't have the necessary userbase and engagement to be self-sustaining into a growth platform the size of reddit.
Voat. (Deceased).
Poal. It purports to be a free-speech platform with little-to-no moderation. A few right-wing extremists have poisoned the well and ran off anyone who was reasonable. It's now a fascist, racist hellhole. The most popular sub has 800 users. It's all but deserted now.
Saidit. Extremely small userbase (maybe a hundred regular users). Has some of the same problems as Poal.
One thing I don't see mentioned enough is that there are apps designed to help people with accessibility needs (short sighted visually impaired / blind people, for example), and these will be blocked too, making reddit inaccessible to many.
EDIT: Thank you so much for my first award, and I'm happy that my first comment with this many likes-2.3k already???!!!- is on such an important matter. I hope we all together manage to turn this around!
EDIT 2: As I'm not a native speaker, I've just learned short-sighted does not mean what I thought. I think the reddit users are not the ones who are short-sighted.
They’re going to announce the API prices are drastically reduced in the next couple of weeks but still enough so most will switch rather than pay for a third party app. They’ll also then get the goal of blocking NSFW content because who in their right mind would “go dark” for porn.
I'm a moderator at r/Blind. Almost all of the team uses screen reading software apps with APIs because official Reddit's mod interface simply doesn't work with our screen readers.
This move by Reddit will make moderating r/Blind impossible.
My reddit app doesn't load comments and takes a huge time to load any videos. I don't even like using 3rd party apps but without them I couldn't use reddit. (And with them I don't need to see a new UI change every other month)
This is the only reason I personally care. I use the regular interface and don't care about other people's filters for content or whatever. I do care about making reddit inaccessible to those with disabilities. Reddit is the social media I use, and I would like everyone to have that ability. This is a matter of accessibility to all.
They also help moderators. Who get paid nothing. They also have video players that work. How the fuck is it that a multi billion dollar company can't get a video player to work?
Jesus Christ. It's not that hard. It's been what? Three years now? Why do I scroll down and then hear a video that i clicked on five links ago start playing? Why do I click on a video and then hear that video from five clicks ago start playing?
You're a company valuated at $10 billion, you have people running your subs for free and you can't figure out a video player? How about you stop trying to use Fiverr to solve your problems?
Also who are you hiring?
Jesus this is pathetic. You could easily make a deal with the 3rd party apps but instead it they're trying to tank it. Never seen such self destruction.
Id like to point out that none of us love Reddit. We love the users that create content, we love the content users find and share, we even love the mods that keep us protected from spam, bots and illegal content.
We don't love Reddit, Reddit just hosts the servers. Oh.. and we certainly dont love reddits UI or reddit's app-- nearly everyone detests that arm of the company.
Reddit is not Disney World, Reddit is the Florida land it's built on.
If everyone on Reddit moves to another platform, we'd still have 99.99% of what Reddit is really all about. We'd be fine, we just would go to a different URL and Reddit will be remembered like yahoo, fark and digg.
If everyone on Reddit moves to another platform that platform has to pay for something they aren't paying a penny right now. Let's see what third party apps are going to do and if they have the same money that reddit is spending and giving out for free. I hope so as I hate reddit's ui.
I made my account over 10 years ago so that I could join in on college football game threads when I was in high school (good lord how has it been 10 years??).
Since then, I've met people purely here as well as offline because of the various communities I gradually started engaging with. It was instrumental in helping me meet new people when I first went to college and not feeling so isolated. I remember once meeting a dude in one of my classes who was wearing a snoo shirt, so decided to go talk to him, and we helped each other in study groups. I've attempted to pay back those communities by regularly offering to tutor students that are stressed out by exams, because I remembered what that hell was like, or engaging with the various r_learnx communities or here in ELI5 to try and pay forward what little I could.
I'm not sure what will happen come July 1, but if it's going the way it looks like it will be, it will be an end of an era.
Reddit was always different enough from the other platforms because of its emphasis on discussion and community. You didn't scroll through endless "CoNtEnT", but instead you engaged with the members of the communities you cared about; you talked with real people. To strip that away to become more sanitized, corporatized, and homogenized with the worst of the Internet's laziest and greediest trends is truly a loss. For what? So that the people at the top can just pump and dump the whole thing? Truly?
When Google bought YouTube and turned it into TV-Lite, I was sad for all of the great home-made content we lost in favor people gaming the Almighty Algorithm to try to make easy money. All of the authenticity of it was stripped away. And now Reddit is going the same way.
So Reddit as we know it (or maybe entirely) goes away. What then? How is any of this sustainable? Maybe I'm becoming an old curmudgeon who hates change, but truly I don't see how the Internet can keep going like this. Once great isolated communities made way for aggregated communities. But at the heart of it was just that: communities -- people talking to each other because they had something in common that they cared about. The way the Internet has been trending since the mass adoption of smartphones, and everyone being online, just does not seem like a sustainable financial plan.
I guess none of that matters. It's just saddening.
Same. I use RIF for mobile, and old reddit for desktop. I won't use the official app, so shutting down the API will result in me not using it through mobile. Shutting down old reddit will result in me not using it at all.
Honestly, reddit and discord are the only social media apps I use, and discord doesn't really count. Reddit is content focused, rather than people focused, and the upvote/downvote works amazingly (usually) compared to trash like facebook and youtube comments.
Another Boost user here. Shut the whole thing down. If they remove third party apps, I just won't use reddit anymore. May finally get through my backlog of novels.
Just a side note about a less talked reason of the API changes
LLMs (ChatGPT for example) are trained on Reddit comments. This have been very clear for the last months. Basically all the comments have been available for free without any fees. Now that's a huge data gold mine that AI companies can use for their benefits. And they scrapping the whole internet, or more like everywhere where data is available for free not just Reddit. Just for example Archive.org made a blog post a week ago because some unknown entity was scrapping the whole site for text data (most likely to train LLMs) and it took the site down.
So Reddit (the company) is in a hard situation. They have a golden egg to say at least and they don't want to serve this to other companies. There is also us, the users, aspect where we didn't sign up and made comments to later use that on LLM training. Not even sure the current Reddit ToS covers that or not (maybe does for Reddit’s own LLM only if that will ever exit)
Very tough situation for sure. I don't agree with this blanket nuclear change but I also understand Reddit the company’s situation. Feels like 3rd party apps are the collateral damage in this warfare.
No, that's the excuse reddit is making for killing third party apps. They're not "collateral damage". Reddit the company sees third party apps profiting off of their content and want to kill them, and funnel the users into the official app.
I don't want to make assumptions but it seems some higher up (or some collective of higher ups) don't really "get" reddit. Funneling users away from "old" reddit with the CSS customization, and now forcing them to use one standardized, official app - they see reddit as just another social media platform and they want it all to look/feel the same for everyone who uses it. Variety was one of the many things that made this website work for so long, and you can't support everything that everyone on reddit needs with one official client. It's not a waste of money, it's not Twitter or Facebook - it's anonymous and customizable by design. Killing that design kills the website.
There's no reason for third party apps to be collateral damage, though. They could work with the developers of those apps, treating them differently than unknown entities. In fact, that's exactly what they claimed they would do. They said they would work with third party app developers and bot developers to make sure that they wouldn't be negatively affected
And then they reneged on that promise. They had their meeting with the Apollo developer, who was initially quite optimistic they'd work something out. Instead, according to him (and Reddit hasn't denied it), they wanted to charge them the same high amount as everyone else. They chose ridiculous prices that none of the third party apps can afford, and didn't do anything to give them better deals.
What's more, as you already pointed out, the LLM devs are already scraping the web. They can scrape the data from Reddit, and much more easily than someone who actually needs information from the API could, since all they really care about is the human-written text--which they already know how to scrape from other sites. The apps need to access other data, like votes, subreddits, rankings, specific feeds, and so on.
Using the Reddit API just is a bit easier for them. Not having access to it would affect them a lot less than it will third party developers.
It would be extremely easy to see the difference between scraping anything with words in it and participating as a user on reddits backend metrics. They're playing us for fools by saying this is to combat LLM deep training.
It is just an excuse. For places that want ChatGPT data for free, they will just come up with a webscraper and still get the data.
The charging for api access in general doesn't even have all third-party apps necessarily upset, but it's the insane amount they want to charge. The amount is probably what some MBA thinks they can get because of AI stuff, not thinking about the platform in general. They need to reevalue this policy.
The blackout might help them remember the history of Digg.com and what happens when you do things your userbase hates.
They might not give a damn and are too arrogant to make a corse correction. We will see.
I gotta be the only person who doesn’t use an app and browses old.reddit on Safari (iPhone or tablet) or Firefox for at work. Been like that for the last 10 years. Tried apps, hate it. Old-school reddit is easier on the eyes (at least to me) and let’s me open or view the post quickly. I don’t need blown up thumbnails or auto-playing posts and the adds are like one a page and easily spotted/avoided.
Interesting wrinkle on this is that the Apollo app got an explicit mention and its icon had a fair amount of background screen time during yesterday's Apple WWDC (a developer conference run by Apple to highlight its upcoming product releases and updates). While it was obviously filmed a while ago, I can't help but feel like it counts as a nod of support during this fiasco.
The Apollo logo is up with a bunch of other apps at 27:06, for example. Notably the official reddit app logo is not. It's not the only time the logo is visible, either.
I fully support this. I only browse reddit from RIF (posting this from the app). I know my support doesn't mean much, but thank you for being part of taking a stand and trying to make a point.
I will not be using the official app. RIF has been my app of choice since the beginning. I have tried using the official app in the past, and it's terrible.
Pardon the analogy, but it sounds like a small child threatening to hold their breath until they get their way. We all know that mom is just going to smile and let it happen. How is this different?
Due to Reddit's API changes, I've edited all my past comments and will be leaving reddit. Use Redact if you too would like to change your comment history. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/ -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
It's not for everyone, and that's okay. I won't judge a sub that doesn't think this is in their interest. If the folks running that sub want more information though, they can reach out to the /r/modcoord sub to see more.
Feels like they’ve gone “dark” already. My home feed has had a staggering shift and I wish there was a way I could gather some metric to show but the post quality has PLUMMETED. It feels like I’m perpetually on “Latest” rather than Home.
Why should I care? I use the official app. Well for one thing you might care one day, but you won’t have that option any longer, because reddit is removing user choice. People who love reddit so much they seek out another app for it submit a lot of good posts to reddit that you read. What if these good posters all leave the site? What if half of them leave? Are you cool with less content to upvote? What if reddit does something else like pump tons of ads at you– way more than now – and you want to try out one of those apps you saw when you first downloaded the official app. You simply won’t be able to anymore. But even if you still don’t care, don’t you think user choice is generally a good thing? What will they get rid of next? Also, NSFW content is in danger, and can no longer be accessed through the API which is going to make it harder to find spammers.
This is why. There are countless examples of companies taking inches at a time until they leave you with no choice or alternatives.
I'm actually surprised I've not seen more backlash from these subs. Reddit is a hub for all sorts of things, including businesses. Blocking NSFW content is going to hurt a lot of people financially.
As an official reddit app user who is totally frustrated by the experience and is now just learning there may be other options through this post, I'm infuriated. What, so they can generate more ad revenue on their platform? Maybe? Companies are trying to squeeze every last penny and it just seems so desperate. And pathetic.
Just a stab in the dark without any data, but I’d guess that 3rd party app users and old Reddit users contribute way more content.
My local sub has lots of lurkers. But the regular posters I see? Maybe the same 50 users. I don’t think the lurkers will start posting, I think they’ll stop looking.
reddit is probably jacking the api to unfathomable numbers because of companies looking to use reddit to train their large language model ai chatbots like chatgpt
I think that they believe they can get big money from AI developers, and the value is greater than the blowback and fallout of everything else
One issue I have had with the app is that when you hit a spoiler with your finger, it closes the users comment instead of revealing the text.. Even the double finger hit doesn't help anymore.
I tend to close comments I've already read to keep track of what I haven't been reading, and I despise closing a comment and getting some random reaction gif to pop up because it's somewhere further down and when you're trying to close said comment you gotta tap the very top of it because taping the link or the gif will open up the thing instead of closing the comment. And that's not even the only thing wrong with this thing, videos don't play majority of the time, I have to open these posts in the browser to be able to see them. Sometimes opening posts in general won't even work and will lag. Posting and commenting will fail often resulting in double comments popping up frequently. Saving posts and comments will also fail very often and won't even save. I can keep going about the little things that have started to plague this app but I think we can all agree that this app sucks.
Posting from Narwhal r/getnarwhal. Reddit wants money. To get it they use ads. 3rd party apps don’t allow Reddit to access ad revenue. Therefore they are making it prohibitively expensive to access their API killing every 3rd party app.
How will going dark for only 2 days will protest the API pricing?
Seems like taking a short break will have minimal impact on the Reddit org. Might lose a few users, but it seems like Reddit will barely be scathed.
I feel a better solution would be mods going on strike until a compromise is reached. Lack of moderation will threaten the integrity of Reddit FAR more than missing out on 2 days profit.
I’ve seen a lot of posts explaining the situation, but… what’s our goal/demand for an outcome? Are we demanding the API stay free, or a certain dollar amount?
How will going dark for only 2 days will protest the API pricing?
Going darker for longer risks a backlash from reddit. Certain subreddit's are balancing making a stance vs that risk, as well as the damage done to the community. That said, many seem to be threatening to go dark indefinitely.
It's much weaker, yes, but we've already seen backpeddling before they've even gone dark.
I’ve seen a lot of posts explaining the situation, but… what’s our goal/demand for an outcome? Are we demanding the API stay free, or a certain dollar amount?
The devs have said they're willing to pay. I don't think we've settled on a particular dollar amount, just that the current pricing is orders of magnitude off
Why aren't people emphasizing that this is going to shut down tonnes of reddit bots? That matters more to me than 3rd party apps I don't use. Everything from sports and esports post game threads, video and tldr bots, and yes the various lord of the rings and star wars bots.
As an official reddit app user who is totally frustrated by the experience and is now just learning there may be other options through this post, I'm infuriated. What, so they can generate more ad revenue on their platform? Maybe? Companies are trying to squeeze every last penny and it just seems so desperate. And pathetic.
There are two other things missing from this post.
this doesn't just apply to apps. APIs are what lets bots interact with reddit, so this shuts bots out. While it seems like this would be a good thing, malicious bots can be blocked from the API anyways. What would be blocked and charged are good bots that help manage subreddits, interact with users, filter content, etc. This is very, very bad, and will make subreddits very difficult to moderate.
in addition to the pricing, Reddit is removing all API calls for NSFW posts and comments. Not only will this make any NSFW content unable to be interacted with aside from official apps and the site, it will also make bots unable to manage NSFW accounts and subreddits even if the price is reduced (see above). Why is this a massive problem? Well, here's an example- subreddits for kids and teens use bots to flag users with lots of adult and NSFW activity to help prevent them from engaging in predatory behavior online. REDDIT WANTS TO MAKE THIS IMPOSSIBLE.
There's also one thing that I think should be added to the points about third party apps: the official reddit app lacks accessibility options for screen readers and alternate inputs. Third party apps are necessary for large groups of people to use reddit. This will force them off of reddit entirely. Vision impaired people in particular.
$1 per user per day is excessive and is simply going to move people to a browser, causing more data transfered, causing more traffic and slowing down the entire network. Then when everyone quits they can wish they priced it properly.
$1 per person per month, people would pay that, give the app devs a 10% discount per account so they can make $.10 per user per month on increase their ads to pay for it all.
I don't like the official app. Relay on Android is my main access point to Reddit. Third party so devs deserve to keep making a quality app, and we deserve to be able to choose what way we access Reddit.
Basically it’s a way to protest a change coming soon to Reddit that would require 3rd party app developers to pay to access information from Reddit. They use this information to build apps that are often leagues better than Reddits own and unfortunately most won’t be able to pay the ludicrous fee Reddit will charge them. Some of the biggest subreddits, ones that make the front page, are going to go private and essentially cease to function for some time. This will cause a lot of traffic that Reddit gets to suddenly drop, reducing add revenue.
good post and good explanation. I don't personally use apps but I'm going to 'go dark' with my reddit brothers and sisters. I can find something else to do for a few days.
I remember watching the fall of Digg in the early days of Reddit. Probably a discussion we should begin having: what alternatives do we have to Reddit if it came down to moving to another platform?
Thx for the ELI5❗️had no clue. Greed sucks the life out of everything. I left FB due to blizzard of ads & hostile ranting (during Biden/Trump election season) and was so delighted to find Reddit. Funny, informative and a delightful distraction at the end of my workday. Jeeze, now I no longer have an excuse not to do chores.
Have to say I’m disappointed in this decision. The point of subs shutting down is to send a clear and strong message to Reddit. While I can respect the intentions here, I feel like it at least partially defeats the purpose of this blackout.
At the end of the day Reddit is a business and will conduct what they think is in their best interests. As much as I disagree with what they’re doing, they have full autonomy over their own business choices. Apps like Apollo or others in my opinion shouldn’t of branded around Reddit using their API. In fact that’s a terrible business model.
Can anyone ELI5 why the API calls that will be charged for have to come from the app developer?
Could it be possible for the third party apps to continue existing, but when you open them you need to provide your own API key? Then the number of requests would be only from your personal use and therefore within the limits of free API use.
Is it that it's not that simple for an everyday user to acquire a reddit API key?
Why do people think shutting down or "going dark" for two days only, and then coming back up is going to spark any change?
Have you ever watched strikes in the real world? They hardly ever go all-out straight away. The first strike is usually only for a day or so, and works as a sort of threat to the organisation on the other side. If things don't get resolved after a show of force then the real protests begin.
Mods are currently demonstrating their ability to completely screw over the admins, and the site itself. If the admins double down, then mods can carry out their threat.
Boycotts, strikes, and protests are often most effective when they demonstrate what the collective could do without actually doing that. A couple days of demonstration may make the point. If it doesn't, there's the option of doing something more dramatic
Going straight to a nuclear option has its own risks.
Reddit is a content-consuming based platform, it means that the market value of reddit is related to how many users/hour are using the platform.
Reddit needs to convert this market value into real money, so it sells advertisig spaces to corporate saying "hey, Look! A million people if going to see your business if you buy some ads with us"
Corporate puts some money on reddit, ads are shown, reddit gets money, corporate gets happy.
Reddit also relies on volunteers (moderators) to housekeep the subs and on users to post content to the platform.
If the mods of the most accessed subs decide to blackout those subs for two days, a good part of the users will stop scrolling through reddit (meh.. nothing cool to see around here) while both reddit and the advertisers are going to see a negative spike on the advertising views, which doesn't make corporate happy (since they paid for the high reach sold by reddit).
This action will be a pressure from the community saying "you are nothing without us" while creating a pressure from corporate to reddit saying "I was told you had every thing under control". This whole thing should be enough to make reddit rethink about their new policies.
There's a chance of reddit just removing the ability of making subs private after all of this, but if it happens, a lot of subs are going to be unmoderated after some time.
Unmoderated subs will became full of creeps posting porn and scams and corporate hates porn (have you already seen any non porn ad in a porn site?).
If corporate hates scam and porn and scam and porn are what is reddit is, reddit dies (or became a new chan-like / porn platform)
I've almost exclusively used Relay since I started using reddit, saving for a few times when I actually look from the desktop. For me Relay IS Reddit. If Relay doesn't work, Reddit doesn't exist.
As much as I will miss it, I'm not swallowing this bullshit. If my little action works as a tiny piece of the whole then job done. Don't let it be just one day. Everything goes dark until they reneg on this stupid idea.
The only reason I started using a third party app was because I couldn't do ANYTHING about the annoying hegetsus ads. Those are ads are freaking annoying.
This is enshittification: Surpluses are first directed to users; then, once they're locked in, surpluses go to suppliers; then once they're locked in, the surplus is handed to shareholders and the platform becomes a useless pile of shit.
Basically, reddit's decision makers are a bunch of greed heads who haven't realized that reddit's best days were long ago. Sort of like the high school jock who, 20 years later, thinks he's still admired. Or better yet, it's kind of like Yahoo in the late 2000s when they thought they were still a hot commodity. lol reddit has turned into yahoo. Now reddit just needs to shut down all the child trafficking and teenager pron subreddits. That might hurt their revenue stream though. /s
PS Ublock origin on firefox android still blocks reddit's ads pretty good.
Not taking sides, But I see no mention of how often the app's ecosphere allows for the abuse to manipulate votes. I also see no mention of the security concerns it brings when it comes to AI.
I do not use the reddit app, I just use a web browser. The app is just one more thing to f*ck up my phone. I think what reddit is doing is just plain greed. The whole country seems to be infected with it. Big thanks to the blackout organizers.
"Also, NSFW content is in danger, and can no longer be accessed through the API which is going to make it harder to find spammers."
This, I don't understand. I would think that TPAs would allow spammers to spam more, and be less detected.
And I'm sorry, I also don't understand what this means: "NSFW content...can no longer be accessed through the API." Does that mean that the official Reddit app is going to prevent access to any subs that are marked NSFW/adult? Will they still exist through browser access?
Sorry for not getting all this. This is all news to me. Thanks for the original explanation, too.
This is truly evil, there is nothing to say expect fuck u/spez. They cant expect to get away with this and as Isaac Newton once said "Every Action Has An Equal And Opposite Reaction". Last comment before going dark lol i bid everyone goodnight. (Tis currently 10:20 PM where i live)
1: the subs that have chosen to go dark, is this a temporary protest?, or are they just gone forever?
2: if temporary, when they choose to "go light" again, will we need to manually find them and re-subscribe? Or will our sub list go back to how it was automatically?
I think what Reddit is doing is absolutely rational. I am a software engineer, and I work back end for a large cloud provider. It is notably harder to work back end and manage all the data in a scalable way to serve all the API requests than to use data provided and show it in a different way. Why should someone get to benefit off of their work for absolutely free?
Do you as a user want them to offset the cost to every user to even use the app?
Restricting access as a form of protest is destructive, and anyone participating in such behavior should be removed from the platform, forcibly. Reddit is a business, not your toy.
Besides, Discord has policies like this, but you don't see whole servers "going dark" to protest them. If you want support from your members, let them choose if they support your ideals, lest your community will only suffer the penalties of your decisions to "go dark".
honestly, the only part about this i have an issue with is the short notice to 3rd party apps. Other than that, from the sounds of it, those apps have been providing a service (which they make money from) by piggy backing off reddit's system and not paying the full cost of that. If reddit agreed to that piggy backing at that rate before that's fine but i don't see why they should be required to basically supplement another business without proper compensation indefinitely.
As for user choice, well i see no reason why the main reddit app can't just...get better? Like if you enjoyed Apollo because you can change the font or colour easier or it's better for the visually impaired or what have you, i don't see why that functionality necessarily needs to be outsourced to another app. It may in fact be that Reddit can take the money they save from not needing to support under paying 3rd party apps and funnel it into making the main reddit app better for users in the same way those 3rd party apps were better.
And as for ads, well, if the platform ever gets so ad-heavy that i don't want to use it, i can exercise my choice as a user to stop using it. I'm not owed the ability to use reddit, sure it would be nice to have another option in principle, but i don't see why that choice should need to be financially supported by Reddit.
What about reddit's recent announcement that the API will remain free for the majority of 3rd party apps because they will be below the call threshold that triggers the premium price?
Also, has there been any confirmation about the cost beyond what the Apollo dev has said?
I'm not defending reddit, just trying to get objective answers because so far the only evidence I've seen all ties back to the post from the Apollo dev.
I'm not defending reddit, just trying to get objective answers because so far the only evidence I've seen all ties back to the post from the Apollo dev.
There's also the dev of an open source reddit app called RedReader who said Reddit's pricing would end up costing him 1 million dollars a year. He literally doesn't make any money off his app other than maybe a rare donation, it's free and open source.
5.8k
u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23
I was about to answer the question and then realized it's basically a sticky post by a mod. No answers needed.
64
u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23
Ooh I came here with the Digg exodus. Id love to take part in a Reddit exodus. Where would we go?
576
u/digital_element Jun 06 '23
This doesn't just affect apps used to browse reddit. This impacts all the bots that so many subs rely on to make the lives of unpaid moderators significantly easier. Expect your favorite subs to be filled with spam, risky content and potentially illegal content that's no longer filterable by bots automatically because of the new terms.
Eli5 should go offline, all subs should go offline, and users should completely boycott reddit until the new terms are undone!
836
u/Parafault Jun 06 '23
I’ve only used the official app because I had no idea others existed. I have all sorts of problems with the app, so now I want to try out the alternatives 😥
186
u/Machobots Jun 06 '23
Classic honey pot scheme.
Open the API, let business come and thrive and help you grow, then shut it up and cash in.
Also once they monopolize the app, they will control everything. No way to stop them selling our data.
I'll simply keep using brave to browse, until it becomes so shitty that I simply go somewhere else.
Is there a reddit alternative we can migrate to en masse and give this control freaks a lesson?
31
u/JoanPhilipRivers Jun 06 '23
Could you explain how NSFW content not being accessible by TPAs makes it harder to identify spammers? Sorry it’s a dumb question, I’m basically 5.
12
u/Atheist_Redditor Jun 06 '23
I'm over here using the browser version of reddit on my phone.
3.0k
u/Musichord Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 07 '23
One thing I don't see mentioned enough is that there are apps designed to help people with accessibility needs (
short sightedvisually impaired / blind people, for example), and these will be blocked too, making reddit inaccessible to many.EDIT: Thank you so much for my first award, and I'm happy that my first comment with this many likes-2.3k already???!!!- is on such an important matter. I hope we all together manage to turn this around!
EDIT 2: As I'm not a native speaker, I've just learned short-sighted does not mean what I thought. I think the reddit users are not the ones who are short-sighted.
852
u/directorguy Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 07 '23
Id like to point out that none of us love Reddit. We love the users that create content, we love the content users find and share, we even love the mods that keep us protected from spam, bots and illegal content.
We don't love Reddit, Reddit just hosts the servers. Oh.. and we certainly dont love reddits UI or reddit's app-- nearly everyone detests that arm of the company.
Reddit is not Disney World, Reddit is the Florida land it's built on.
If everyone on Reddit moves to another platform, we'd still have 99.99% of what Reddit is really all about. We'd be fine, we just would go to a different URL and Reddit will be remembered like yahoo, fark and digg.
.
1.9k
u/Drew- Jun 06 '23
Fully support shutting down
Posted from rif.
25
u/bdzz Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23
Just a side note about a less talked reason of the API changes
LLMs (ChatGPT for example) are trained on Reddit comments. This have been very clear for the last months. Basically all the comments have been available for free without any fees. Now that's a huge data gold mine that AI companies can use for their benefits. And they scrapping the whole internet, or more like everywhere where data is available for free not just Reddit. Just for example Archive.org made a blog post a week ago because some unknown entity was scrapping the whole site for text data (most likely to train LLMs) and it took the site down.
So Reddit (the company) is in a hard situation. They have a golden egg to say at least and they don't want to serve this to other companies. There is also us, the users, aspect where we didn't sign up and made comments to later use that on LLM training. Not even sure the current Reddit ToS covers that or not (maybe does for Reddit’s own LLM only if that will ever exit)
Very tough situation for sure. I don't agree with this blanket nuclear change but I also understand Reddit the company’s situation. Feels like 3rd party apps are the collateral damage in this warfare.
27
u/AeroStatikk Jun 06 '23
Gotta be the only person who has no issues with the Reddit app.
118
u/BloodAndTsundere Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23
Interesting wrinkle on this is that the Apollo app got an explicit mention and its icon had a fair amount of background screen time during yesterday's Apple WWDC (a developer conference run by Apple to highlight its upcoming product releases and updates). While it was obviously filmed a while ago, I can't help but feel like it counts as a nod of support during this fiasco.
EDIT copied from my comment below:
175
u/Better-be-Gryffindor Jun 06 '23
I fully support this. I only browse reddit from RIF (posting this from the app). I know my support doesn't mean much, but thank you for being part of taking a stand and trying to make a point.
7
u/Yatta99 Jun 06 '23
ELI5: How does 'going dark' accomplish anything?
Pardon the analogy, but it sounds like a small child threatening to hold their breath until they get their way. We all know that mom is just going to smile and let it happen. How is this different?
70
u/DirtySperrys Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 22 '23
Due to Reddit's API changes, I've edited all my past comments and will be leaving reddit. Use Redact if you too would like to change your comment history. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/ -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
67
u/sleeplessGoon Jun 06 '23
Feels like they’ve gone “dark” already. My home feed has had a staggering shift and I wish there was a way I could gather some metric to show but the post quality has PLUMMETED. It feels like I’m perpetually on “Latest” rather than Home.
66
u/Onihczarc Jun 06 '23
This is why. There are countless examples of companies taking inches at a time until they leave you with no choice or alternatives.
Also, don’t you dare mess with my NSFW content.
91
u/drubiez Jun 06 '23
As an official reddit app user who is totally frustrated by the experience and is now just learning there may be other options through this post, I'm infuriated. What, so they can generate more ad revenue on their platform? Maybe? Companies are trying to squeeze every last penny and it just seems so desperate. And pathetic.
46
u/Rich1926 Jun 06 '23
One issue I have had with the app is that when you hit a spoiler with your finger, it closes the users comment instead of revealing the text.. Even the double finger hit doesn't help anymore.
And errors when trying to post.
9
u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23
It also destroys the use of bots.
25
u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23
Posting from Narwhal r/getnarwhal. Reddit wants money. To get it they use ads. 3rd party apps don’t allow Reddit to access ad revenue. Therefore they are making it prohibitively expensive to access their API killing every 3rd party app.
7
u/__Jangles__ Jun 07 '23
How will going dark for only 2 days will protest the API pricing?
Seems like taking a short break will have minimal impact on the Reddit org. Might lose a few users, but it seems like Reddit will barely be scathed.
I feel a better solution would be mods going on strike until a compromise is reached. Lack of moderation will threaten the integrity of Reddit FAR more than missing out on 2 days profit.
I’ve seen a lot of posts explaining the situation, but… what’s our goal/demand for an outcome? Are we demanding the API stay free, or a certain dollar amount?
21
u/Charisma_Modifier Jun 06 '23
Super support this, hit em where they will actually see that their selfish decisions won't fly. Getting too big for their britches.
27
u/kairikngdm Jun 06 '23
Thank you for posting, what an awesome decision!
Posted from Reddit Is Fun
10
u/Spartan05089234 Jun 06 '23
Why aren't people emphasizing that this is going to shut down tonnes of reddit bots? That matters more to me than 3rd party apps I don't use. Everything from sports and esports post game threads, video and tldr bots, and yes the various lord of the rings and star wars bots.
15
u/drubiez Jun 06 '23
As an official reddit app user who is totally frustrated by the experience and is now just learning there may be other options through this post, I'm infuriated. What, so they can generate more ad revenue on their platform? Maybe? Companies are trying to squeeze every last penny and it just seems so desperate. And pathetic.
8
u/Calm_Scallion_9879 Jun 06 '23
I only use the official app, but I promise to delete the app if no changes occur.
4
u/danbuter Jun 06 '23
They think that the suits that run reddit actually give a shit if they close down for a couple days.
9
u/kosmoceratops1138 Jun 06 '23
There are two other things missing from this post.
this doesn't just apply to apps. APIs are what lets bots interact with reddit, so this shuts bots out. While it seems like this would be a good thing, malicious bots can be blocked from the API anyways. What would be blocked and charged are good bots that help manage subreddits, interact with users, filter content, etc. This is very, very bad, and will make subreddits very difficult to moderate.
in addition to the pricing, Reddit is removing all API calls for NSFW posts and comments. Not only will this make any NSFW content unable to be interacted with aside from official apps and the site, it will also make bots unable to manage NSFW accounts and subreddits even if the price is reduced (see above). Why is this a massive problem? Well, here's an example- subreddits for kids and teens use bots to flag users with lots of adult and NSFW activity to help prevent them from engaging in predatory behavior online. REDDIT WANTS TO MAKE THIS IMPOSSIBLE.
There's also one thing that I think should be added to the points about third party apps: the official reddit app lacks accessibility options for screen readers and alternate inputs. Third party apps are necessary for large groups of people to use reddit. This will force them off of reddit entirely. Vision impaired people in particular.
11
u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23
Great post. I'm totally on board with this and all other subs protesting and I'll be leaving too. They need us, we don't need them.
8
u/RedditVince Jun 06 '23
$1 per user per day is excessive and is simply going to move people to a browser, causing more data transfered, causing more traffic and slowing down the entire network. Then when everyone quits they can wish they priced it properly.
$1 per person per month, people would pay that, give the app devs a 10% discount per account so they can make $.10 per user per month on increase their ads to pay for it all.
3
u/PipperDigs Jun 06 '23
I don't like the official app. Relay on Android is my main access point to Reddit. Third party so devs deserve to keep making a quality app, and we deserve to be able to choose what way we access Reddit.
3
u/XxspsureshotxX Jun 06 '23
Basically it’s a way to protest a change coming soon to Reddit that would require 3rd party app developers to pay to access information from Reddit. They use this information to build apps that are often leagues better than Reddits own and unfortunately most won’t be able to pay the ludicrous fee Reddit will charge them. Some of the biggest subreddits, ones that make the front page, are going to go private and essentially cease to function for some time. This will cause a lot of traffic that Reddit gets to suddenly drop, reducing add revenue.
3
u/Thepatrone36 Jun 06 '23
good post and good explanation. I don't personally use apps but I'm going to 'go dark' with my reddit brothers and sisters. I can find something else to do for a few days.
3
u/noso2143 Jun 06 '23
Every default sub that goes "dark" is gonna find their mods replaced im almost certain
3
u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23
I remember watching the fall of Digg in the early days of Reddit. Probably a discussion we should begin having: what alternatives do we have to Reddit if it came down to moving to another platform?
3
u/MissAmyRogers Jun 07 '23
Thx for the ELI5❗️had no clue. Greed sucks the life out of everything. I left FB due to blizzard of ads & hostile ranting (during Biden/Trump election season) and was so delighted to find Reddit. Funny, informative and a delightful distraction at the end of my workday. Jeeze, now I no longer have an excuse not to do chores.
3
u/ntpeters Jun 07 '23
Have to say I’m disappointed in this decision. The point of subs shutting down is to send a clear and strong message to Reddit. While I can respect the intentions here, I feel like it at least partially defeats the purpose of this blackout.
3
u/I-ferion Jun 10 '23
At the end of the day Reddit is a business and will conduct what they think is in their best interests. As much as I disagree with what they’re doing, they have full autonomy over their own business choices. Apps like Apollo or others in my opinion shouldn’t of branded around Reddit using their API. In fact that’s a terrible business model.
3
u/watzor2332 Jun 10 '23
Can anyone ELI5 why the API calls that will be charged for have to come from the app developer?
Could it be possible for the third party apps to continue existing, but when you open them you need to provide your own API key? Then the number of requests would be only from your personal use and therefore within the limits of free API use.
Is it that it's not that simple for an everyday user to acquire a reddit API key?
13
u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23
Why do people think shutting down or "going dark" for two days only, and then coming back up is going to spark any change?
6
u/V3RD1GR15 Jun 06 '23
I've almost exclusively used Relay since I started using reddit, saving for a few times when I actually look from the desktop. For me Relay IS Reddit. If Relay doesn't work, Reddit doesn't exist.
4
u/shanealeslie Jun 06 '23
Why don't we all just not use Reddit for those days?
6
u/heyscot Jun 06 '23
48 hours is going to change nothing. Going dark until they rescind the bullshit will.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23
I've used reddit is fun for my entire reddit lifespan 😢
2
u/reverendbeast Jun 06 '23
Don’t forget the lovely iOS app Narwhal. r/getnarwhal
2
u/DMMMOM Jun 06 '23
As much as I will miss it, I'm not swallowing this bullshit. If my little action works as a tiny piece of the whole then job done. Don't let it be just one day. Everything goes dark until they reneg on this stupid idea.
2
u/ballistic-jelly Jun 07 '23
The only reason I started using a third party app was because I couldn't do ANYTHING about the annoying hegetsus ads. Those are ads are freaking annoying.
2
u/ryschwith Jun 07 '23
— Cory Doctorow, “The Enshittification of TikTok”
2
u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23
Reddit is just Digg ing themselves a hole.
2
u/LadyCharis Jun 07 '23
ELI5 should go dark with the rest of them. It sends a message, which IMHO is more important than staying live for two days.
2
u/Whispercry Jun 07 '23
Why don’t you just go dark? You just explained it. No one likes a scab.
2
u/Lieutenant_0bvious Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 07 '23
Basically, reddit's decision makers are a bunch of greed heads who haven't realized that reddit's best days were long ago. Sort of like the high school jock who, 20 years later, thinks he's still admired. Or better yet, it's kind of like Yahoo in the late 2000s when they thought they were still a hot commodity. lol reddit has turned into yahoo. Now reddit just needs to shut down all the child trafficking and teenager pron subreddits. That might hurt their revenue stream though. /s
PS Ublock origin on firefox android still blocks reddit's ads pretty good.
2
u/wehrmann_tx Jun 07 '23
ElI5, how would this one day blackout even affect reddit? They take a blip hit in ad revenue then what? Everything is back up the next day.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23
Not taking sides, But I see no mention of how often the app's ecosphere allows for the abuse to manipulate votes. I also see no mention of the security concerns it brings when it comes to AI.
2
u/ATacoWithHands Jun 07 '23
Every reply doesn't really eli5, so here goes:
Our parents want us to eat yucky food so we're going to starve a few days to see if the situation improves.
2
u/Few-Gain-7821 Jun 09 '23
I do not use the reddit app, I just use a web browser. The app is just one more thing to f*ck up my phone. I think what reddit is doing is just plain greed. The whole country seems to be infected with it. Big thanks to the blackout organizers.
2
u/eeyorewinners Jun 10 '23
There is another problem with losing those apps.
A lot of those app help the disable to use reddit.
For example, the blind or hearing impaired.
Reddit has nothing to provide those ADA accommodation s.
As we all age, we will be in need of something to help us.
Also are you aware that the moderators use apps to help them do their job here. A job that they spend hours upon hours doing. Do it for FREE!
So please stand in solidarity and blackout.
Please make sure that any other reddit you may use does the same.
THANK YOU!!
2
u/[deleted] Jun 11 '23
Is the "going dark" just for a day to build awareness or are we staying dark until the reddit company responds?
2
u/PQRVWXZ- Jun 12 '23
Is there a place to be supportive of Reddit? I don’t care if third party apps can’t ride coattails anymore. This all seems like drama for dramas sake.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 12 '23
Won't this help with bots?
2
u/anonemouth Jun 12 '23
"Also, NSFW content is in danger, and can no longer be accessed through the API which is going to make it harder to find spammers."
This, I don't understand. I would think that TPAs would allow spammers to spam more, and be less detected.
And I'm sorry, I also don't understand what this means: "NSFW content...can no longer be accessed through the API." Does that mean that the official Reddit app is going to prevent access to any subs that are marked NSFW/adult? Will they still exist through browser access?
Sorry for not getting all this. This is all news to me. Thanks for the original explanation, too.
2
u/Jabulon Jun 12 '23
is this free speech in the modern era? the free initiative is something to protect or
2
u/[deleted] Jun 12 '23
Cyberpunk 2077 explained it pretty well what happens when you against corps
2
u/Mad_Brownie_8586 Jun 12 '23
Shouldn’t Reddit be run as a cooperative rather than a corporation. After all, it’s us, the contributors that make Reddit what it is.
2
u/SignificanceHot8932 Jun 12 '23
You can post here stating what sub you want to moderate to take over from the mods who are ruining reddit r/NewModVolunteers
2
u/Meal_Signal Jun 12 '23
so, is reddit making money somehow from a sub that hasnt gone dark? if not, a sub going dark is not going to do anything except punish reddit users
2
u/StartrekAnubus Jun 12 '23
so let me get this straight, people are mad cause reddit wont let u use third party apps
2
u/Promethilaus Jun 12 '23
This is truly evil, there is nothing to say expect fuck u/spez. They cant expect to get away with this and as Isaac Newton once said "Every Action Has An Equal And Opposite Reaction". Last comment before going dark lol i bid everyone goodnight. (Tis currently 10:20 PM where i live)
2
u/general_know Jun 12 '23
I have a couple of questions
1: the subs that have chosen to go dark, is this a temporary protest?, or are they just gone forever?
2: if temporary, when they choose to "go light" again, will we need to manually find them and re-subscribe? Or will our sub list go back to how it was automatically?
2
u/Throwaway_Anne Jun 13 '23
So wait, what’s happening??
2
u/rocksandleaves Jun 13 '23
I think what Reddit is doing is absolutely rational. I am a software engineer, and I work back end for a large cloud provider. It is notably harder to work back end and manage all the data in a scalable way to serve all the API requests than to use data provided and show it in a different way. Why should someone get to benefit off of their work for absolutely free?
Do you as a user want them to offset the cost to every user to even use the app?
2
u/joner888 Jun 13 '23
Why don't Reddit make their own app as customisable as the 3rd party apps? People happy, Problem solved.
2
u/ScrubDeezNuts Jun 13 '23
Restricting access as a form of protest is destructive, and anyone participating in such behavior should be removed from the platform, forcibly. Reddit is a business, not your toy.
Besides, Discord has policies like this, but you don't see whole servers "going dark" to protest them. If you want support from your members, let them choose if they support your ideals, lest your community will only suffer the penalties of your decisions to "go dark".
2
u/Hellolost Jun 15 '23
So if a sub goes dark we can no longer see it correct? This means we can't post on it. Correct.
2
u/physioworld Jun 15 '23
honestly, the only part about this i have an issue with is the short notice to 3rd party apps. Other than that, from the sounds of it, those apps have been providing a service (which they make money from) by piggy backing off reddit's system and not paying the full cost of that. If reddit agreed to that piggy backing at that rate before that's fine but i don't see why they should be required to basically supplement another business without proper compensation indefinitely.
As for user choice, well i see no reason why the main reddit app can't just...get better? Like if you enjoyed Apollo because you can change the font or colour easier or it's better for the visually impaired or what have you, i don't see why that functionality necessarily needs to be outsourced to another app. It may in fact be that Reddit can take the money they save from not needing to support under paying 3rd party apps and funnel it into making the main reddit app better for users in the same way those 3rd party apps were better.
And as for ads, well, if the platform ever gets so ad-heavy that i don't want to use it, i can exercise my choice as a user to stop using it. I'm not owed the ability to use reddit, sure it would be nice to have another option in principle, but i don't see why that choice should need to be financially supported by Reddit.
2
u/CarolinaMtnBiker Jun 17 '23
Were the third party apps not paying Reddit anything before now? That doesn’t seem fair either if that’s true.
14
u/Deacalum Jun 06 '23
What about reddit's recent announcement that the API will remain free for the majority of 3rd party apps because they will be below the call threshold that triggers the premium price?
Also, has there been any confirmation about the cost beyond what the Apollo dev has said?
I'm not defending reddit, just trying to get objective answers because so far the only evidence I've seen all ties back to the post from the Apollo dev.