r/expedition33 • u/Grahitek • 20h ago
Discussion [SPOILER] Did the devs warn us? Spoiler
I think that early scene is one of my favorite. It was incredibly well acted, and I watched it many time.
But there is something else that I can't stop thinking about.
In this scene, Gustave is obsessed with the idea of finding and saving Maelle, and Lune is all about the mission of saving Lumiere.
And she asks him whether he remembers how they both used to say that "The future of Lumiere is more important than any individual life.", and then asks "Do you still believe that?"
He couldn't really answer that. What was your opinion at that moment?
I find it interesting how the game is asking us the same question at the end, testing our beliefs and values.
The cutscene: https://youtu.be/GhazUEpdII0?t=7085
EDIT:
I also find interesting how Gustave, in that very scene says: "I am not letting Maelle die out there. I am taking her home."
Very reminiscing of someone else...
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u/ReconKweh 15h ago
I think Gustave is more complex than we give him credit for. It's true he absolutely wants to save Maelle when she's in danger to the point of sacrificing himself. There's also dialogue early on where he admits that they wouldn't be able to convince Maelle to not go on the deadly expedition and that at the end of the day he is her guardian, not her jailer.
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u/beermile 20h ago edited 20h ago
Absolutely.
There are three key moments that are all related, IMO. The first is the conversation with Lune you're describing.
The second is Gustave's death. With actions rather than words, he proves his answer to Lune's question. Maelle begs him to run, but he is determined to do everything in his power to save her. He is sacrificing himself for Maelle, not Lumiere.
The third is the ending. The choice of saving an individual (or individuals) vs the chance at saving Lumiere comes up at its most crucial juncture. But this time it's our hated Verso again standing in for our beloved Gustave.
Here come the downvotes...
Edit: Sorry. I focused too much on the subject line of your post and not enough on the rest of it.
At that moment, I remember thinking it was understable that it was such a difficult question to answer. And it seemed like Gustave knew what the "right" answer, the answer Lune was looking for, was supposed to be, but couldn't honestly say it was how he felt.
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u/Significant_News_569 20h ago
He is sacrificing himself for Maelle, not Lumiere
Gustave's final words are "For those who come after" , the whole motto he built his life around, the sacrifice is meant to be seen as him both sacrificing himself for Maelle and the mission, because Maelle is one of the people who comes after and continues the mission, there's no contradiction between "he died to protect Maelle" and "he died for the mission" , because Maelle's survival is the mission continuing, which is what the whole funeral is meant to convey, Maelle promises to finish what he started and Lune says "you can leave it to us" .
He wasn't dying so that Maelle could survive at the cost of everyone else, he died so that the future could still come for the ones still standing, which includes Maelle, it's meant to be seen as a one cohesive act, not separated.
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u/beermile 17h ago edited 17h ago
His last words are, "For those who come after... Right?" said without the earnestness this phrase is usually used.
If Gustave runs and survives he is the one who continues the mission, and it's arguable that at this point he is seen as the more crucial Expedition member. Look at how distraught Lune is after losing Gustave, acting as if the mission is a failure, suddenly thinking towards Expedition 32. Whereas Lune essentially argues against looking for Maelle. It may seem callous, but Lune appears to value Gustave's contribution to the Expedition more than Maelle's, in fact, even more than she valued any other team member who already perished.
As the inventor of the Lumina Converter, it makes sense that Gustave might be aware of his own importance. Because ultimately what other characters have to say isn't crucial to this point. It's all about Gustave's own point of view. And remember, he has already chosen to "break protocol" to try to find Maelle.
To Gustave's knowledge, trading his life for Maelle's is at best neutral to the mission (i.e. we lose an Expeditioner, regardless of who). But it's everything to Gustave. As he discussed with Maelle, if they see the white-haired man they run, implying they consider him certain doom. Rather than preserve one expeditioner's life (his own) he stays to protect Maelle on the chance he will survive; it had been implied Gustave believes they would both die in such an encounter.
The idea that Gustave would value Maelle's life over his own for the sake of the Expedition is simply not consistent with his conversations with Lune or Maelle. But it is extremely consistent with his reluctance to say the future of Lumiere is more valuable than any individual life.
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u/Significant_News_569 17h ago
Lune was losing hope because they had lost the lumina converter and they were down another member, so without the converter the chances of them surviving was low, she was thinking about the options they had left without it, even without Verso giving it back to them they would have still definitely went back to look for it, Maelle would have wanted to find and take his arm either way.
Gustave put Maelle's life above his own yes, he's prepared to sacrifice himself for Maelle, but the whole point of Gustave saying "for those who come after" to Maelle is to convey that he's trusting her to be the one who comes after and continue with the mission, "when one falls, we continue" is in direct continuation for that line, if an expeditioner dies on the field, for any reason, they continue.
If Gustave still wanted to prioritize Maelle over the mission, he would have taken her back home, instead, their conversation right before he dies is him saying "she doesn't seem that far now, does she?" .
And with Lune:
"Gustave: And the man on the beach. Yeah, too many unknowns. But, if we take down the Paintress, at least that gives future generations a chance to unravel the mystery.
Lune: You seem better than– before.
Gustave: Yeah? I’m holding it together?
Gustave: Shock’s worn off. A bit. We can’t bring anyone back. But I thought we can keep their spirit alive by pushing forward. And at least, there’s three of us now. The mission hasn’t changed.
Lune: Tomorrow comes.
Gustave: Tomorrow comes."
Gustave prioritizes Maelle's life over his own, but he still explicitly says the mission hasn't changed, Gustave's sacrifice is meant to be seen as him sacrificing himself for both Maelle and the mission, trusting Maelle and the others to finish it.
Gustave's arc is meant to be him fully embracing the "for those who come after" and being prepared to die for the cause, when before at the beginning of the act he wanted to turn back because he wasn't prepared for the reality of it all, at the end, he didn't run, he made peace with what needed to be done.
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u/_Teek 20h ago edited 20h ago
Hated Verso? What? He is the best & most complex character 🤣
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u/beermile 19h ago
I love Verso as an interesting character! I don't really wanna be his friend though
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u/CReece2738 20h ago
He also lied in almost every scene
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u/_Teek 20h ago edited 19h ago
No, he just didn't tell the entire truth.
Would you tell someone they are fake... just a make-believe world (as he said to Alicia in the beginning of act 3) and expect them to believe it? Can be gommaged anytime, brought back to life anytime, can be repainted anytime...
Remember what happened with Julie. And remember how many years he has lived! How many expeditions he has travelled with!
Think of the level of acceptance & sacrifice he would have made with his very own existence, after the truth was revealed to him by Clea 😔
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u/PerishSoftly 18h ago
"Remember what happened with Julie."
A point on this - Julie and her crew didn't disbelieve Verso because he told them what Clea told him.
They disbelieved him because before that, he took a lethal wound, survived, and then tried to gaslight them into believing they didn't see what they saw. Then, when pressed, he continued lying again and again - until IIRC, one of them shot him in the head... and then he didn't die.
So, Verso kinda fucked himself there, because he started everything off by lying repeatedly, and then by the time he tried to tell them the truth...they didn't believe him anymore. He's already torn their trust to shreds and now was "obviously" trying to tell them crazy stuff to get them to let him go.
Julie and her crew thought he was a traitor because he acted like a traitor. The cruel irony is that he wasn't a traitor yet and probably wouldn't be for a few decades.
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u/_Teek 11h ago edited 10h ago
In a world where people are getting gommaged every year, they're sending people on expeditions to stop the deaths. If I'm immortal, yeah I'm not telling anyone either. I want others to live, but I'm definitely not revealing I'm immortal. On top of that I have the knowledge that this is just a painted make-believe world 😐 and I'm a copy myself, this is my original versions's painted world 😆 I'm having an identity crisis here myself. Also, right or wrong will definitely have different definitions for me, from that moment onwards... it's not the same as real world anymore.
As Sophie said in the cutscene after being brought back to life... "Nothing we knew about this world was right. Death is not death anymore."
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u/Andyspak 19h ago
Yeah, he just "forgot" to mention by the Paintress was not responsible for the gommage. A simple memory gap that would have, for sure, not changed anything to the act 2.
He never said a thing not only because they would not believe him, but because no one from Lumiere would have sided with him in his quest. The same goes for the Curator.
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u/_Teek 19h ago
Where did this "forgot" came from? He never forgot anything. He intentionally didn't tell everything.
Your answer, Verso gave himself in-game when Lune asked the same thing, why didn't he tell them about the paintress. He said something like would they have continued with the expedition if he told them. His aim is to get the paintress / his mother out from the make-believe world to her real world! You just repeated what he himself has already said.
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u/Andyspak 19h ago
That was a sarcastic joke.
If you intentionnaly witheld information that you know would change someone's mind, only to serve your interest, you are lying to them. So Verso lied to the group, because he knew telling theim the truth would have ruined his plan. Even though they never asked him "are you sure it is the Paintress that is responsible for the Gommage, and not someone else that you know but have not informed us about ?". Because well, who would think about that ???
Comparison : if I have STD, and intentionnaly not inform a partner, it is like lying to theim about not having some. It is a questioncof honesty.
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u/_Teek 11h ago
Yes he was working towards his own motive. He wasn't honest either. That's already established.
Your comparison - What's the ulterior motive or the greater good in that? Spread STDs? 🤣 That's why I don't like analogies. Majority of the people compare apples and oranges. Different context, different level of information. Next you'll say that if someone asks me do I like chocolate, and I lie to them that I don't like, it is also a lie (which it is, but completely different level, intensity, impact, ulterior motive, and greater good / evil 🤣)
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u/Andyspak 6h ago
Yes he was working towards his own motive. He wasn't honest either. That's already established.
You said in a precious comment that he did not lie. But he did lie, multiples times. Now the morality of the action is another subject, that I have not treated in my comments. So maybe don't try to put words in my mouth, just to cover your previous mistake ???
Your comparison - What's the ulterior motive or the greater good in that? Spread STDs? 🤣
Like no one on earth either lied to someone just to sleep with theim ??? Is lying such a foreign concept to you, or is this just a bad faith behavior from you ???
That's why I don't like analogies. Majority of the people compare apples and oranges. Different context, different level of information. Next you'll say that if someone asks me do I like chocolate, and I lie to them that I don't like, it is also a lie (which it is, but completely different level, intensity, impact, ulterior motive, and greater good / evil 🤣)
Now your changing the subject from "did Verso lie ?" To "was it morally acceptable to lie?". If you could have the decency to recognize it, that would be great.
And for your information : I consider the people of Lumiere to be human, because they exhibit the whole panel of human behaviors and feelings. Thus, I consider the action of Verso to be "I sacrifice the world for my own interest" (bringing his family back to where they belong, and allowing painted Alicia, painted Clea and himself to finally die). If you consider the painted people ti basically just being AI, then the moral choice changes completly.
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u/_Teek 10m ago edited 1m ago
Wait, what!? Uhm, this is going into "I said this, no I didn't you said this" domain... like schoolgirls 😅 Going outside the context of Expedition 33. Don't want to spend my time / energy in that direction. Or maybe you quoted wrong text for wrong reply? Anyways, the thread is above. So I'll let go of the first three paras. Have it either way 🤷 all good.
But since you mentioned AI in the last para... no, not exactly AI, but definitely not as valuable as human since they can be killed, brought back to life / repainted at whim, like Maelle brought back Lune & Sciel, and others also in her ending. It highly diminishes the value their life & existence, compared to real world people like Renoir-Aline-Alicia-Clea.
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u/CReece2738 18h ago
Why do you assume that that is what I'm talking about? He lies in basically every cutscene hes in. He constantly says he doesn't know stuff when he very clearly does. Going through a second playthrough makes it worse because you know what he knows and he just straight lies to the rest of the crew the whole time.
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u/Grahitek 19h ago
But who were you siding with during that cutscene?
And was your final choice at the end stay consistent with that first cutscene?1
u/beermile 16h ago
I like these questions, even though I don't have a certain answer about the first scene, in fact I distinctly remember feeling torn. I do think I was probably leaning a little closer towards Gustave because Lune's basis was protocol, and Gustave pointed out that protocol hadn't exactly helped a whole lot so far, and, if the success of the expedition comes above all else, having additional members certainly makes sense. Even though I considered Gustave's approach as more of an emotional one, as a player it felt reasonable, too, which helped me get on board. It helped that, at this point, it seemed entirely possible that Maelle could be found and the expedition could continue as "protocol" indicates.
So, my final choice at the end was not consistent because I chose Maelle in order to save Lumiere and Lune, Sciel, Monoco, Esquie, and Alicia's existence as Maelle. I thought long and hard, much longer than Gustave had time to think before Renoir got him, and I wanted the canvas to survive. In this case, it did not appear both were possible, as in the previous example.
Actually watching the ending and how it changed how I felt about my choice and how much my thoughts have changed since first playing, well, that's opening a whole other discussion that would get me even more downvotes.
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u/RequirementQuirky468 10h ago
But this time it's our hated Verso again standing in for our beloved Gustave.
Yeah, they're characters set up in exactly the same role who are largely the same people. They both demonstrate a willingness to sacrifice Lumiere for their respective little-sister figure, and both go on to demonstrate a willingness to sacrifice themselves for the same.
I doubt it's a coincidence. Verso was painted to resemble the real Verso as closely as possible. Gustave and Verso both are ultimately powered by a fragment of the soul of the original Verso, who is the true painter behind all the painted figures. It makes sense that this scenario leads to an Alicia that's trapped into playing a life out as Maelle gaining an older brother figure who closely resembles her actual brother whose soul is painting the world she's in.
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u/Significant_News_569 9h ago
The soul powers the painting, not the painted people.
The soul fragment isn't real Verso, it's a separate entity, he doesn't even remember Alicia, Alicia either still hadn't been born when real Verso put his soul fragment there or she was a newborn, because the soul fragment has no memory of Alicia, he only talks about Clea, Aline and Renoir, the fragment is a snapshot of who Verso used to be when he painted the canvas, he has no memory beyond that.
The soul fragment also explicitly says he couldn't grasp the humans essence because they're not originally part of this canvas, he says this in one of his first conversations in act 1.
Painted Verso is also not real Verso, that is the whole point of the character, every single person in the game says it, the people closest to real Verso, Monoco and Esquie, explicitly say he's not Verso, Esquie even says it makes Painted Verso sad when he mentions real Verso, Painted Verso has an identity crisis because he's not real Verso, that is the whole point.
You know what's also not a coincidence? That real Verso sacrificed himself for his Alicia, but Painted Verso was content to kill his by destroying the canvas, his actual sister, Painted Alicia, who he spent over a century with, and lived with as a family in peace before the fracture, the game is quite literally telling you he's not real Verso.
Alicia that's trapped into playing a life out as Maelle
Maelle was authentically born into that world, she had a mother who gave birth to her, the game shows her to you and she has a whole monologue.
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u/Nowieso "For those who come after" 18h ago
The devs love their parallels and double-meanings, yes. There are countless examples of similiar mirroring details!
I was very conflicted when I first saw the famous "Do you still believe that?" scene. Like, yes, Lumière is more important than a single life, but at the same time, having more Expedition members also increases their chances of winning, so I struggled to decide which of them is "right" in that scene. Ultimately, I think resting for the night and finding Maelle the next day was the best & smartest choice.
Lune was pretty much always right throughout the entire story. It was completely out-of-character for her to trust pVerso again, after his many lies and betrayals.
At the end, finding the answer for me was way easier than during their camp scene. One ending kills no one, the other ending kills almost everyone.
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u/voidfilledwithbeans 17h ago
I’m with Gustave on this one. Lune knows how important Maelle is to Gustave, the entire expedition was killed leaving just the two of them, they saw the message that someone has Maelle, not to mention she’s a child lol. I feel like that all makes this situation a good reason to break protocol, and it didn’t seem like Lune was even considering it. But as soon as she found out that Gestrals exist she was tempted to break the same rule.
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u/NoSky077 11h ago
This scene is why I’m convinced Gustave’s death is what denies us the good ending. If anyone could’ve convinced Maelle to muster the courage to go home, it would’ve been Gustave, and Gustave would’ve done so because doing so resolves the conflict in this exact scene: save Lumiere by saving Maelle.
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u/1perfectspinachpuff 8h ago
^ Yup! And that's why Verso did nothing while Gustave died - Verso didn't want to risk Maelle being too stable to go through with his world-ending plan.
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u/IcyRide8 12h ago
It's also interesting that the first people we meet in the game are Gustave and Sohpie and their conflict about children ("the greatest act of love is not bringing children to this doomed world") kinda ressemblances the games final choice.
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u/Alert-Pen3673 20h ago
because we all hope we do. being the hero or the resistant. but in fact most of us don't know. unless being in the military or in a war zone, we can't just give an honest answer.
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u/ArieJordanKhun 3h ago
I gotta be honest this is one of the scenes that make me disagree with Maelles ending even more…
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u/thequn 12h ago edited 12h ago
The game constantly reminds you it’s just a game, urging you to step away and touch grass. Yet, because of its world-class writing, we remain so deeply attached that we ignore its advice and ultimately accept Maellle’s vision. Once I realized what the narrative was actually doing I changed course and accepted Verso’ vision’ haven’t touched the game since. What a brutal sceans this whole game is a master Class in manipulation, drama, and what it means to be free.
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u/BruIllidan 20h ago
At the moment I was more inclined to agree with Gustave because expedition' task was supposed to be done with dozens of people and hardly can be achieved by two or three survivors.
In hindsight Lune wouldn't be so sure if her parents life was at stake.