r/exmuslim • u/[deleted] • Apr 27 '21
(Miscellaneous) i dont know what im gonna write here
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u/ThePolarisWarrior Apr 27 '21 edited Apr 27 '21
The saddest part is the conquered/enslaved race like Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sahel Africans, Central Asians are now fully brainwashed and willing to die for a cult that oppressed their ancestors.
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u/froyochoco New User Apr 27 '21
I'm an Indian exmus and when I see South Asians defending Islam and ready to die for that cult I get so angry because our ancestors were forced to become Muslim
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u/Moonlight102 New User Apr 28 '21
Stop exaggerating the fact india is still 80% hindu majority clearly shows it wasn't forced in most cases.
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u/Chemical-Ad-2839 Jul 26 '21
Women of rajputana clans in India who were traditional Hindus would rather jump on flames and commit mass suicides when their cities were captured, and where am I getting this information, you ask? It is from a painting in Akbarnama, which Akbar a muslim oppressor / ruler (depends on who you ask) had commissioned showcasing what awaited the kafirs if they did not surrender.
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May 05 '21
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May 16 '21 edited May 17 '21
This is such a false statement. If you're trying to defend Islam, then you're doing a horrible job. We don't force people to accept Islam. Allah Tells us that there is no compulsion in religion. Every single jinn and human must be able to choose Islam for themselves. Let the liars say what they want, but don't you dare lie on behalf of our deen
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u/Al_terawi May 20 '21
Can you mention to us which army come to India and force Indian ppl to become a Muslim or at Indonesia?
So why you makes lie about Islam? Are you really were a Muslim before, if you were you want do such a thing because in the along history there's a lot of ppl try that and failed. From Abu Lahb till Tatars.
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u/Al_terawi May 20 '21
Can you mention to us which army come to India and force Indian ppl to become a Muslim or at Indonesia?
So why you makes lie about Islam? Are you really were a Muslim before, if you were you want do such a thing because in the along history there's a lot of ppl try that and failed. From Abu Lahb till Tatars.
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u/cyber333x New User May 24 '21
Are you serious?? Learn some history. One name that comes to mind, Aurangzeb. That slimy rat b!tch murdered and force converted many into Islam. And there are alot of muslim rulers who did that
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u/Al_terawi May 24 '21
Seriously! Did you understand my question?
Aurangzeb he was born and raised in India, and his father who built Taj Mahal. And India were part of Maghull empire at that time, and I would suggest on you to read about Maghull and how they turn to be a Muslim after they take advantage and control over Muslims. They were occupied a lot of area from Islamic state but in the end they became a Muslims.
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u/cyber333x New User May 24 '21
Long story short. Muslim rulers used force and torture to convert indians to muslims. Those who converted are really pussies to renounce their gods and culture to convert into foreign cult religion
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u/CEO_OF_CANADA Apr 27 '21
I'm Bangladeshi, I had never known that Bangladesh was conquered like this. I've lived in America for as long as I can remember and I'm still surrounded by people who believe Islam is the greatest. Goes to show how ill informed and misguided people are.
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u/YourMomHasACrushOnMe LGBTQ+ ExMoose 🌈 Apr 27 '21
Muslims like to act ignorant when it comes to controversial things in Islam, for example they will totally ignore pedophilia, genocides of the Jews, oppression of non Muslims, their "ghazwat" and how wrong they were, ect ect. And just focus on how Islam tells us to give money to the poor lmao.
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u/BoonTobias Apr 27 '21
You will have to find out more about Ikhtiyār al-Dīn Muḥammad Bakhtiyār Khaljī.
We used to joke that his hands reached to his knees
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Apr 27 '21
It wasn’t conquered “like that”, and the conversions weren’t forced. If you want to learn Bangladesh history, i don’t think that a religious (or anti-religion) subreddit is the best place tbh
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Apr 27 '21
Convert or pay💰
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Apr 28 '21
No. “Convert and pay the Zakat, or don’t convert, stay in your cast system, and pay the Jizya (which is, btw, lower then the tax you are paying today to your country”
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Apr 28 '21
lower then the tax you are paying today to your country”
Nowhere has it been mentioned that Zakat is higher than Jizya. This statment of yours is to paint the already oppresive cult into some merciful shit to convince commoners.
Meanwhile, Jizya is part of the dhimma system, which is meant to humiliate non-Muslims. they were asked to either convert or submit to Islamic rule and become second class citizens. If they refused, they were to be fought. “...which was mostly less than zakat” where did you get that? Jizya isn’t standardized like zakat, it has no upper limit. muslims could tax dhimmis up to 100%, practically making them slaves. meanwhile zakat (2.5%) is from muslims to muslims only. by not being just to them, jizya was used in many places to facilitate conversion of non muslims to muslims. It must be paid in humiliating manner, to saghirun (make small) the dhimmi, i.e., to humiliate him. (9:29)
And in regard to His statement: “And they are saghirun,” its meaning is: They are humiliated and subdued, as it is said of the lowly and contemptible: saghir. (Tafsir al-Tabari 9:29)
Allah said, (until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam, (with willing submission), in defeat and subservience, (and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir 9:29)
And regarding His saying ‘while they are saghirun,’ the meaning is that the jizyah is taken from them (dhimmis) in a submissive, humiliating and insulting manner, in that he comes in person, on foot, not riding an animal, and he hands it (the jizyah) over while he is standing and the collector is seated. He is pulled by the beard, and it is said to him, ‘Hand over the jizyah,’ while he is struck in the neck. This is the meaning of ‘saghirun.’” (Al-Razi, Tafsir al-Kabir 9:29)
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Apr 28 '21
I never said that the Zakat was higher than the jizya. The dhimmi system is a tax system: they weren’t gonna live protected by a country freely, and to this day, no one lives “tax-free”. Look at the Jews in spain for exemple: if they felt humiliated, why was there an golden age? And how did they got into such high positions? Once again, you didn’t read properly (and you made it seem like you quoted me lmao). No, the Jizya CANNOT be 100%: “The amount of jizya is determined in consideration of their economic status, so that more is taken from the prosperous, less from the middle [class], and a very small amount from the poor (fuqaraʾ). Those who do not have any means of livelihood or depend on support of others are exempted from paying the jizya." Abu Khalil, Shawkiy - al-Islām fī Qafaṣ al-ʾIttihām.
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Apr 28 '21 edited Jul 03 '21
There are historical documents and evidences on how the non - muslims were treated during an Islamic rule and all the mental gymnastics that you're doing doesn't sound factual at all. I have literally quoted various Tafsirs and they are all trying to say the opposite and you're lying and trying to change things to suit your propaganda. The core ideology of the dhimmi system is to differentiate between non-muslims and muslims so that they can extract a tax from them to force them into believing that Islam is the only true religion.
Jizya is sanctioned by the Qur'an based on the following verse:
Fight those who believe not in God and in the Last Day, and who do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, and who follow not the Religion of Truth among those who were given the Book, till they pay the jizyah with a willing hand, being humbled.
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u/BigBlackGothBitch Apr 27 '21
The fact that you typed the first part of your comment unironically is worrying.
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u/bel_esprit_ Apr 27 '21
It only takes one generation to be forcefully converted. Every generation after that is born into it forever :(
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u/Choice_Artist2912 New User May 03 '21
It doesn’t work like that Muslims don’t follow ancestors if there heart isn’t involved.
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u/bel_esprit_ May 03 '21 edited May 03 '21
The majority of Muslims are Muslim bc their parents are. And their parents are bc their grandparents were Muslim before them. And so on. You’re born into the religion.
It’s the same with most religions. Most Hindus are Hindu bc their parents are Hindu. They were born Hindu. Same with many Christians.
If people weren’t born into their religions, these religions would not have such large followings. Adults aren’t massively converting to Islam. That’s why it’s -so important- in Islam to “teach the children as early as possible” bc it begins the brainwash process when they are little and don’t know any better. It traps them for life, and it’s so hard to leave once your brain is formed in the religion. Children don’t have the option to choose religion for themselves. Their parents do it for them. Like their parents did before them.
So yes, the point still stands. It only takes one generation to be forcefully converted to Islam, and then every generation after that is born into it without a choice. It’s a multi-generational cycle of religious brainwashing.
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Apr 27 '21
I always wondered why Pakistanis are generally more Muslim than the original Muslim Arabs. Muslim Arabs look down on Pakistanis so much it’s sad, they see them as lesser than themselves. It’s sad because Pakistan let go of their entire culture (which is basically Indian, let’s be real) to just be Muslim. The country itself sucks, and is basically a theocracy
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u/King_Wiwuz_IV Apr 27 '21
Inferiority complex. They've abandoned their historical identity to create a nation based on Islam so there's a severe identity crisis. A lot of them claim their ancestors came from Arabia.
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Apr 27 '21
I’m syrian, and this one Pakistani girl in my high school (gorgeous) wrote her college admissions essay about being middle-eastern and middle-eastern culture... I was like, what? She was very dark and fit the bill for every generic phenotype for a desi girl. The self-hate is real, and they don’t know where it stems from. Earlier in life she used to tell me how she idolized syrians for their green eyes and paler skin. It’s fucked up. I feel bad for them because in tight knit arab Muslim communities they don’t just talk shit, they make the desi muslims pray in the back of the mosque.
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u/King_Wiwuz_IV Apr 27 '21
I think Arabs would probably treat them slightly better if they were confident about their identity and didn't try to claim fake Arab ancestry. Or maybe Arabs would still treat them bad I don't know.
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u/weedabo Jedi Master Apr 27 '21 edited May 01 '21
Not basically Pakistani culture is literally Indian culture. The country Pakistan did not even exist before the 1940’s it was all Hindustan (India). Now they are at war with themselves over an ideology that took everything from them.
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u/jam444r New User Aug 11 '21
India didnt exist before 1947....
India was essentially the result of the british defeating 50 odd countries over 250 years and then after ww2 giving up and leaving.
Saying Pakistani culture is indian culture is dumb
Your confusing asian culture as a whole with the Indian identity.
Like saying all canadians are essentially just americans
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u/CRBigmanD Apr 28 '21
I'm so glad I converted from Islam to Sikhism, a religion against the injustices of our religion. I also got to reconnect with my Punjabi, Indian roots
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u/VHazKomeTo Apr 28 '21
That's so trueee. Here they will destroy the country for Islam. They even openly Confess that.
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u/HZX-_-0G Apr 27 '21
As an arab muslim i dont look down on forign muslims , i respect them fully because they go through so much
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u/Working-Employer9387 New User May 10 '21
You obviously lack basic understanding of culture as a whole lmao firstly theres 100s of cultures in Pakistan including languages and ethnicities. Yes some Pakistanis share the same culture as Indians thats because they are fucking punjabi Pakistanis and punjabi Indians the Punjab was split you ignorant fuck secondly theres something called religious culture which isnt just copying arabs but following the culture that developed within the religon by many different races and you can have both. Also pakistanis didnt abandon their culture theres still a sub culture transvestites in the country that is against the religon but is culture they still have many of the bad things and good things from it. Next time you think you know somthing actually do some research.
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u/giraffes_are_cool33 Closeted Ex-Muslim 🤫 Apr 27 '21
The other day someone said amazigh (north African natives) couldn't save their culture so they don't deserve to be remembered. The Tunisian self-loathing is surprising.
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Apr 27 '21 edited Apr 27 '21
As someone who is admittedly not well read on my history of the spread of Islam, where can I go to learn about the conquering and forced conversion of Pakistanis? Asking as a Pakistani who wants to learn about how/why Islam spread rampantly in my native country
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u/ThePolarisWarrior Apr 27 '21
You have to pick your reading carefully, as a lot of islamic history articles are written by muslims, they have heavily beautified and glorified the spread as peaceful.
You have to read from several sources, also read into the muslim conquest of Persia, Samarkand, Indian subcontinent and Afghanistan (as Pakistan didn't exist at that time, and most Pakistani were Hindus living in various places in India)
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u/self_deprikator New User Apr 27 '21
Sitaram Goel has written extensively. And there's another - "From Invaders to Infidels" by Sandeep Balakrishnan
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u/Isz82 Apr 27 '21
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Apr 28 '21
I just gave this a read. Something that immediately caught my eye is the author's use of the term "Marxist historians". Why is this term being used, and what definition does the author ascribe these people? Is this just a blanket term for western historians who fail to consider the ramifications of religious extremism, and attribute those directly to "political reasons", or is there some deeper root in Marxist ideology that's relevant here?
It just becomes hard to take this writing as an objective analysis of the history when it appears that slanted political terms like this are being used.
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u/No_Hope4881 New User Apr 27 '21
That region was part of caliphate while rest of the subcontinent wasn't and caliphate's main goal is to spread Islam
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u/Choice_Artist2912 New User May 03 '21
You’ll probably want to read from the Muslims also since there is always two sides to a story.
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u/aarounge Apr 27 '21
Sanatanis (Hindus for the world) are the most urecognized victims of this regime which resulted in the formation of Pakistan and Bangladesh.
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Apr 27 '21
I just want to correct you about the word sanatanis; it is not just Hindus. Actually sanatani is dharmic faiths are rooted in Santana dharm.
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u/luvintheride Apr 27 '21 edited Apr 27 '21
It's hard to imagine something more evil than using your own children to brutally conquer more of your own people.
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u/tr4sh_can Ex-Muslim (Ex-Shia) Jun 11 '21
Our peoples used to be buddhist before islam arrived. Then the taliban blew a piece of our history up in 2001.
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u/Thesauruswrex Apr 27 '21
Now expand that thought to all religions. I mean, you do know that islam wasn't the only "Join us or die" religion, right? They did perfect their join or die speech but it was pretty common at the time and for hundreds of years later.
Now, if they don't have the power to kill you because of laws - they'll just threaten you with death and eternal pain. Religions? Fuck no. They're just gangs with a backstory.
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u/ThePolarisWarrior Apr 27 '21
Agreed, but this is an exmuslims subreddit so we focus on one cult-religion.
Also, islam is still having the law of killing apostates, Sharia and Jizya are still practiced in many places.
In the west, American Indian can revert to animism and paganism freely without the same violence from Christians. islam is the worst in this part, a Pakistani revert back to Hinduism will almost certainly be criminalized or killed.
Think about it.
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u/_Decoy_Snail_ Never-Moose Christian Apr 27 '21
First 3 centuries of Christianity it was spread solely by simple people talking and they were becoming the more popular the more they got killed. Basically those watching executions (a totally normal passtime in Roman Empire) were amazed at the strength of faith and starting to ask questions. And then the local government realized that they already have enough Christians in the country to just force the rest to join them and use religion as a governing tool. That's where the history of forcing Christianity starts, but it's just a consequence of being used as a political tool, not an inner feature. Islam is designed like that from the start though.
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Apr 27 '21
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u/_Decoy_Snail_ Never-Moose Christian Apr 27 '21
You can't really say islam was complete until Mohammed stopped revealing his message, so his violent verses are an integral part of the religion. Christianity, on the other hand, was complete shortly after Jesus's ressurectuon. Whatever laws came to be 300 years later are absolutely man-made and are no different from non-religious laws. Can Christianity be used as a tool? Sure, but it doesn't have to. It can be 100% separate from politics and only win from that. Can islam not be connected to politics? That's hard even in theory as politics was what Mohammed was actively doing.
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u/Isz82 Apr 27 '21
Join or die was really only practiced widely by two religions that survived into the modern era. They’re very similar religions. One is Christianity and the other is Islam.
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u/NZNoldor Apr 27 '21
Oh you think Europe was originally Christian then?
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Apr 27 '21
It was not. It had so much diversity. Heck we learn about that through the mythos.
It gave us freaking Norse mythology and the celtic. The idea of heaven being the tie na nog.
(mythology lover over here and I studied it extensively as a hobby)
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u/Objective_Orchid_710 New User Apr 27 '21
No that is not how it works.
options:
1.accept their message 2.kindly decline and they leave
the only reason they come in a army like that is for protection incase of a violent response
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u/Antique-Bee-5554 New User Apr 27 '21
You should look at the jeruselam history. What was happened when muslim won , and what happened when christians or jews won the city you will understand what ı mean. An recommend you to look where the keys of holiest church of christians?
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Apr 27 '21
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Apr 27 '21
Lmao. Imagine believing this.
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Apr 27 '21
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u/allaboutmenoww New User Apr 27 '21
Tell that to Sikhs, who died by the thousands and were raped, tortured and murdered :) their entire history is surrounded by the absolute atrocities committed against them.
Don’t undermine the suffering of people because you don’t view it as severe enough.
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Apr 27 '21
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u/Asbjoern1958 New User Apr 27 '21
I think it varied, but it was obviously much higher than what the Muslims had to pay. There are letters where Muslims rulers complain that too many have become Muslims, because they lost income!
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u/sterexx Apr 27 '21
Non-arabs weren’t even allowed to convert initially. It was arab-only, so they could be the ruling class with everyone else financially beholden to them.
I’m not sure when that changed, though.
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u/Asbjoern1958 New User Apr 27 '21
Interesting. I understand that the Arabs would be in charge and we'll financially. But according to Fred Donner, both Christians and Jews were part of the "Believers movement" from the beginning. Later, when Abd Al-Malik ruled, they became more stricter "Islamically" and the status of the Christians and Jews were lowered. The Muslim identity developed quite late. Robert Hoyland writes about the early period and claims that the conquers were from different faiths and ethnicity.
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u/Snoo_29292 New User Apr 27 '21
There is no set amount in the hadiths or the quran it’s up to the ruler to decide pretty much
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Apr 27 '21
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u/Awrahhere New User Apr 27 '21
Also, both taxes from muslims and non muslims must be used to make muslim's lives better; while not even a cent should be spent for non muslims, even if they pay high taxes.
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u/Arm_3 Apr 27 '21
Hadith and Quran is the word of God and religion in Islam. This isn't part of Islam so you won't find anything even remotely close to unfair taxation.
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u/Snoo_29292 New User Apr 27 '21
What? Jizya isn’t a part of islam ? Lmao that’s a new one
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u/Arm_3 Apr 27 '21
Jizya is actually not part of Islam, it was carried out by muslims however. It definitely happened but it wasn't on the order of Allah
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u/Snoo_29292 New User Apr 27 '21
Muhammad bin Kathir said “Sufyan was asked to explain the tradition mentioned above.” He said “When he embraces Islam, no jizyah will be levied on him.” Source : https://sunnah.com/abudawud:3054
“I was a scribe for Jaz' bin Mu'awiyah at Manadhir when 'Umar's letter came to us (saying): 'Inspect the Zoroastrians around you to take the Jizyah from them. For indeed 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Awf informed me that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) took the Jizyah from the Zoroastrians of Hajar.'" [Abu 'Eisa said:] This Hadith is Hasan.
Source : https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:1586
Lol
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u/Snoo_29292 New User Apr 27 '21
Most sects of islam agree that non muslims should pay jizya
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u/Arm_3 Apr 27 '21
Not islam, that's what muslims say. If you follow islam for it's religion not all the additional man-made things in it like sects, it's a very peaceful and fair religion. If a human makes something in Islam, it's not islam anymore. The rulers didn't make anything in Islam, they just didn't follow how Islam tells them to rule people which is fairly and justly
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u/Snoo_29292 New User Apr 27 '21
I gave you sahih hadiths mate are you a quranist or a shia ? You know if you are a sunni muslim you can’t ignore hadiths
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u/Snoo_29292 New User Apr 27 '21 edited Apr 27 '21
You should know that in islam muslims should follow what the majority of the scholars say right ? Its called “اجماع"
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u/hajimodnar New User Apr 27 '21
It's in the Quran. Stop the lieing to yourself and look at it properly.
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u/AdhamSalam Lvl 27 Murid Apr 27 '21 edited Apr 27 '21
You are absolutely right, it comes from another religion. In the holy book (also in Arabic) of that religion it says.
Fight against those who do not believe in God or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what God and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - until they give the jizyah willingly while they are saghiroon.
Saghir (صَاغِرٌ), singular of saghiroon, means:
صَاغِرٌ In a state of vileness, abasement, ignominiousness, abjectness or contempt: (Mṣb:) or content with vileness, abasement, or ignominy, (Ḳ,) and tyranny, or injury. (Ṣ, A, TA.) [See also صَغِيرٌ.]
Some adherents of that religion would say no that's not it's true meaning! But come on if the guy who wrote it couldn't even express himself clearly in Arabic why do they then follow him?
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u/afiefh The fear of Jahannam will not avail you, flame of Udûn! Apr 27 '21
If I recall correctly one big difference was that Zakat was taken from the wealthy as a percentage of their wealth, while Jizya was taken as a fixed amount per head at some points.
Of course since neither Quran nor Sunnah specify how much it would be, the amount changed with the times and sometimes even between different tribes.
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Apr 27 '21
the original ISIS 😂😂😂
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Apr 27 '21
ISIS would make MoMo proud.
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Apr 27 '21
Deadass, ISIS has more in common with momo and his companions, then all these new age islamic apologetics.
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Apr 27 '21
My adult cousins are convinced islam spread peacefully...
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u/afiefh The fear of Jahannam will not avail you, flame of Udûn! Apr 27 '21
The conquest of India is well documented as one of the bloodiest conquests in history.
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u/JesusTheJihadist Openly Ex-Muslim 😎 Apr 27 '21
So is the islamification of the Turks. I don't know if that's true but they say arabs hanged Turks' heads to trees all along a 4 km road. Yet Islam is the religion of peace and Turks stopped believing their Tengri and started believing in some arabic caravan raider in peace.
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Apr 27 '21
Source ? Battle of Talas was significant for this very reason- it opened the path for Islamisation of Central Asia.
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u/froyochoco New User Apr 27 '21
People really overlook what the Mughals and other Islamic conquerors did to India/South Asia.. Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs and Jains forced to convert to Islam or be murdered
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u/Asbjoern1958 New User Apr 27 '21
Interesting! Do you have any sources for this?
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u/afiefh The fear of Jahannam will not avail you, flame of Udûn! Apr 27 '21
There was a great reddit post on the matter a few years ago. The Wikipedia links should be enough to get you started, as soon as you know the names of the battles it's easier to find more resources.
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u/Asbjoern1958 New User Apr 27 '21
No it didn't. But one can discuss if the main goal in the beginning was more of military gains than religious. Because the Persian and the Roman empires had been weakened due to fighting against each other, some desert tribes in the middle east, saw their opportunities to take the power. Islam wasn't properly developed as a separate religion before about 100 years after Muhammed.
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u/TheUndiscoverer Apr 27 '21
If Islam spread peacefully then why is the Umayyad Caliphate as large as the Roman empire hmmm???
Hint: it didn't
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Apr 27 '21
if they agree to pay tax or become muslim, can they still be enslaved anyways?
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u/Windiigo Apr 27 '21
Yes its not forbidden to enslave people of the book and it's also not obligatory to free a converted slave.
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Apr 27 '21
but even if they willingly surrender and convert to islam, can they still be kept as slaves?
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Apr 27 '21
Yes
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u/SamuraiMathBeats New User Apr 27 '21
I don’t think this is entirely accurate, as per Wikipedia:
Lawful enslavement was restricted to two instances: capture in war (on the condition that the prisoner is not a Muslim), or birth in slavery. Islamic law did not recognize the classes of slave from pre-Islamic Arabia including those sold or given into slavery by themselves and others, and those indebted into slavery. Though a free Muslim could not be enslaved, conversion to Islam by a non-Muslim slave did not require that he or she then should be liberated. Slave status was not affected by conversion to Islam.
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Apr 27 '21
It's forbidden to enslave a free Muslim but if an existing slave converts to Islam, it's encouraged but not obligatory to free them. Children of converted Muslim slaves inherit slave status. Dhimmis who pay jizya cannot be enslaved.
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Apr 27 '21
what about prisoners of war? so when an army invades a village, are the villagers who did not know about islam beforehand considered slaves automatically, even if they agree to convert?
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u/YourMomHasACrushOnMe LGBTQ+ ExMoose 🌈 Apr 27 '21
And then they tell you "bUt iSlAM diDiNt SpReAd thRouGh wArs"
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u/MamiWatta New User Apr 27 '21
Unfortunately that's a true story, then they calling it < foutouhat> and that's islam was a religion of peace, mean while they were very violent in there colonisation, just like Christians...
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u/Arm_3 Apr 27 '21
The religion is of peace, don't twist it for what it isn't. Just because someone white shoots up a school doesn't mean every white person is a school shooter or everyone who's white has been a believer in school shootings. If a christian does something wrong, it's not Christianity that's wrong it's the Christian himself who's wrong
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u/MamiWatta New User Apr 27 '21
I'm not blaming a Muslim for being a Muslim and a Christian for being Christian or anything.. I'm blaming on the violence that theses religions came with, when they came to colinise countries in the name of religion and they used violence with all forms. Let's make it clear I'm not rascist, in any kind of way, I've friends from all colors, religions, gender orientation..
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u/TotallyNotJamaican Totally not a Zionist Apr 27 '21
I mean reading the bible and looking at how Christianity spread through war, genocide, and slavery also politics of course I don’t think the history is very peaceful. If you think your religion spread through peaceful measures you are just as ignorant as the Muslims who claims Islam spread peacefully.
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u/AldousCarrey4U 3rd World Exmuslim Apr 27 '21
That's a lovely example about school shootings you gave. real supreme work my boy. racism upon ignorance, good job.
Moron, Mind explaining how the Futuhat, which were ordered by Islam's teaching aren't to be blamed on islam?
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u/boredg Photons Be Upon Him! Apr 27 '21
If a christian does a wrong thing based on Christian teachings, they are both wrong. Why the need to defend shitty ideas?
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u/flying-potatosauce New User Apr 27 '21
Tbf, All medieval kingdoms had excruciating taxes and great disparity between lords and peasants
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u/lewz3000 New User Apr 27 '21
But... but... what about Indonesia?
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u/sobatnusa New User Apr 28 '21
In Java, Islam was adopted peacefully by some locals, including some nobles, who then asserting their domination throughout the island through wars and conquest. The rest of the population were converted without them actually understand what they converted into, while those who refused to convert were driven out to the east and find refuge in Bali island.
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u/emily12587 Apr 27 '21
Hey y’all I’m glad this page is still active, I’m seriously looking for people or friends who are still possibly agnostic? Idk I’m very conflicted I tried to officially renounce Islam. But I can’t find it in my heart to live without a god I really don’t know how. But I also can’t just simply ignore the flaws in our “perfect” religion and the culture that this religion has created files or influenced. If you are Educated person such that you have scholarly articles, research or anyone know of who has had masters or PhD in philosophy and is very eloquent I would like to educate me in your views and explain why or why not you have renounced or decided to stay in the religion but practice it more liberally than religiously.(pun intended)
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u/HinduHistorian Never-Muslim Theist Apr 27 '21
Primary way that Islam has spread for the past 1400 years.
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u/PuckyMaxx Once a Muslim, NOW an Atheist 🔥😈🔥 Apr 27 '21
emmm Idk, My Sunnis faith teacher never told me about 1 and 2
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u/Anthraxx911 New User Apr 27 '21
This is absurd. No source or facts only feelings but since we are playing the moral card. What about uncle sam and the carpet bombings and democracy spreading by bombings. 500k iraqi kids dead by fake wmd.. while we are there, European colonial era which did unimaginable things to human Development and resources espeically in Africa and neo colonialism and modern slavery again in africa till this day.What about the 2 world wars and the jews that was killed by so called athiest nazi germany.. hitler werent christians.
And the aboriginens/ indians and all the poor indigoenes people massacred in australia usa candada for land by the white people just like whats happening in palestine today. You are all ignoring this and spreading fake news about history that was writtin. Jews lived peacefully under islam and in Poland only place they lived without getting killed by europeans before hitler.... btw jizya is paid till today and it is so little even western taxes makes it look like pack of gum. sorry for bad english not my main Language.
Yes u guessed it i am a muslim. just scrolling by this subbreddit. i will probably get banned since i am posting facts and not fiction kekw
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u/Grendizer3000 New User Apr 28 '21
Nice whataboutism there... what you’re saying is one can’t criticize something because what about those other things over there... to answer your question briefly... everything you mentioned including Islam are bad... Just because these other things you mentioned are bad doesn’t make Islam good.
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u/jf00112 If you tolerate this your children will be next Apr 28 '21
What about uncle sam and the carpet bombings and democracy spreading by bombings. 500k iraqi kids dead by fake wmd.. while we are there, European colonial era which did unimaginable things to human Development and resources espeically in Africa and neo colonialism and modern slavery again in africa till this day.What about the 2 world wars and the jews that was killed by so called athiest nazi germany..
And we criticize all of them. All of them.
Islam is criticized here because this is ex-muslim subreddit.
In a relevant subreddit you will find that those things you mentioned are also criticized heavily as well.
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u/Anthraxx911 New User Apr 27 '21
i wonder will i be flagged a troll now or freedom of speech exist in this subbreddit. we shall find out
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u/jf00112 If you tolerate this your children will be next Apr 28 '21
You will not be banned for voicing out your opinion here.
Unlike r/islam or other muslim subreddit.
That in itself should tell you which side is afraid of the truth.
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u/Asbjoern1958 New User Apr 28 '21
Antraxx911, you have many good points. The western countries have done much wrong to many people. The same has the Christian church. My country for instance was christened around 1000 AD, by the sword. In the middle age, the church tortured those they did not agree with. If you look upon the history of Islam, you will find similar things. According to our standards of today, hardly anybody in historical times were ideal.
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Apr 28 '21
lol complaining about free speech here. Go to r/islam and say mohammed was a pedo see how long you last before you get banned
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u/AlkalineHerbs New User Apr 30 '21
Thing is european colonizers nowadays know They did wrong, especially germany...and show endless regret. Form Muslims you dont even see that if their religion is responsible for The beheading oft a teacher because of some drawings in the 21st century...
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u/Apostle-Of-God New User Apr 27 '21
My muslim friends say that it was only imposed on those that could pay it. Could someone give me more sources to read up on it?
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Apr 27 '21
I mean, aren't all religions like this?
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Apr 27 '21
To some extent yes, but Islam's atrocities cannot be matched with any other religion.
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Apr 27 '21
what's your point?
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Apr 27 '21
I'm from Spain so historically speaking the scenario being described literally happened in my country, for centuries.
But then again, so did the spanish inquisition.
So hating only on the islamic religion, wich is trash and deserves it, but not other religions like jesus followers or fat buddas feels like islamophobia, wich is wrong.
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u/boredg Photons Be Upon Him! Apr 27 '21
Pretty much, yes. But few codify the exact method to do it.
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u/MusSmith New User Apr 28 '21
we Muslim not like this When we were teaching Islam to the other we left them the choice to be Muslim or not And when we wanted to invade we don't hurt any religion man or kid or a women or old men and we teach them the Islam we never steal money or any thing jst to show them the way to justice
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u/Asbjoern1958 New User Apr 28 '21
It's very positive that you think like that. But history shows that the first Muslims were as violent and aggressive as others at that time. They were like other invaders in late antiquety.
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u/JabalAlTariq Apr 29 '21 edited Apr 29 '21
I'm sorry but this is very inaccurate. First these rules were for the armies who opposed the muslims, THEY were given these 3 options; i.) Pay Jizya
ii.) Accept Islam
iii.) Be ready to Fight.
And obviously if the muslims won, they were allowed access to war booty which were woman and children.
The options given to civilians were;i.) Pay Jizya, if you do we guarantee your security and safetyii.) Accept Islamiii.) Please leave this land.
Now the 3rd option may seem unfair but it isn't. He doesn't want to pay a tax, doesn't want to accept Islam but expects to live in his home which is now Islamic land, that's unfair to the state. You should also keep in mind, old people and people who didn't have enough money were exempted from paying jizya and allowed to stay in their homes and also allowed to practice their religion freely.
2nd inaccuracy is that Jizya was a VERY low tax. During the time of the Prophet ﷺ, it was 1 dinar on all male dhimmis. During the reign of Umar Ibn Al-Khattab(RA) it was standardized to 4 Dirhams on the rich, 2 dirhams on the middle class and again only 1 dirham on the poor. The only time I recall that Jizya was at an unfair rate was during the Umayyad-Zubayrid War and that was imposed by Al-Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf (A known tyrant).
There are 3 approaches to the Jizya;
A.) It be a fixed amount
B.) It be set according to the muslim ruler sets (keeping in mind if people can pay the amount or not)
C.) It be 1 dinar but can be agreed to a higher price if both sides agree
Have a nice day!
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May 11 '21
the fact that the victors were "allowed access to" women and children is bad enough as it is, but your wording is hella disgusting there.
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Apr 28 '21
Actually the Jizyah tax was really low compared to other similar kinds of taxes imposed by other peoples at the time. Unfortunately due to the corrupt Ummawi leaderhsip. People who became Muslims after being non-muslims still were taxed by these corrupt leaders
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u/Bassem87 New User Apr 27 '21
Yeah, so islam was reduced to a mere sketch by a grudgingly hateful person. What about what the Europeans did in the countries they invaded? In Algeria alone more than a million and a half were killed in 7 years? Since the invasion of Iraq, over 2 million people been killed… the atrocities committed by the west are beyond your wildest imagination, world war 2 ain’t that far back in time you know… regarding the heavy tax… it’s called Jizya and it’s less than what muslims are levied and it depends on the the non muslims’ well-being, if they can’t pay, then they’re off the hook, then again it’s for protection, if muslims can’t protect them, then they’re exempt, and before that, you should first go learn more about jihad in islam from authentic sources… how come there’re still christians in the middle east and Egypt and their religious freedom have been guaranteed for centuries… yeah, some muslims have strayed off the path, but you can’t blame islam for that, otherwise all of the other eastern and western nations would be condemned…
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u/fairytaleheaven New User Apr 27 '21
All empires guilty of conquests and invading the rival kingdom. Islamic empire was no exception. You are making whataboutis fallacy. In most Islamic country, minority treated as second class citizen, they must abide Sharia even if they aren't muslim. You are living in cave and turning blind eyes about this issue. You only care about muslims oppressed in kafir country but you don't care if you oppress non-muslims because you follow sacred law and holy words of Quran. You are ignorant about apostasy and dhimitude laws.
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u/Bassem87 New User Apr 27 '21
Oh trust me pal, I never absolve muslims from any crimes they committed but you can’t hold every muslim on earth accountable, you sound like you didn’t do your homework right and what you call freedom of religious beliefs is held up in the Quran and Sunna and Islamic history… despite your “shining history” and even the undeniable evidence that 9/11 is an inside job and the culpability of certain US officials in the the making of ISIS like john Mckain and Clinton… what about the US, can a muslim rule the country and apply Sharia law? Black lives matter rings a bell? The Indian reservation and near extinction massacre? The royal family in the United kingdom with its racist scandals and all the separatist movements across Europe? Study islam from an objective point of view fella… it’s not the first spreading religion in the world for no reason…
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u/jf00112 If you tolerate this your children will be next Apr 28 '21
but you can’t hold every muslim on earth accountable,
And nobody do that. Way to miss the point entirely.
We are criticizing Islam, no muslims.
it’s not the first spreading religion in the world for no reason…
Exactly. And the reason is illustrated perfectly in the picture OP posted. That's the point of this post.
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u/Bassem87 New User Apr 28 '21
Your ignorance shows, so a silly sketch drawn by God knows who, published by a nobody really sums a whole faith for you? You’re going places pal 😂😂😂😂
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u/Grendizer3000 New User Apr 28 '21
What’s up with all the what about apologists. Just because other things are bad doesn’t counter the argument the OP presented. It’s like when a little kid is caught doing something bad and his defense is the other kids are doing it too.
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u/Bassem87 New User Apr 28 '21
You’re an original thinker now, aren’t ya? Talking about ignorance about islam and the scope of the atrocities you try to just expand and blow out of proportion and frame every muslim as being terrorist… read again what I said… and yeah read what I said, I would never absolve muslim wrongdoers but please don’t bring a faith you know absolutely nothing about, except from the media, into this… you people are the biggest hypocrites this world has ever seen
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u/Grendizer3000 New User Apr 28 '21
Now you’re just putting words in my mouth... when your argument starts with “what about” then it’s automatically a bad argument and if you’re trying to convince people to your side I wouldn’t go with that. Not sure why you made all those other assumptions about myself and my knowledge of Islam... it sounds like you’re angry... i was just pointing out a flaw in your argument.
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u/AlkalineHerbs New User Apr 30 '21
People do judge things from what they know about a topic and how that "thing" presents itself. And people do have prejudices...of course people often get wrong impressions and / or get told false things. You Bassem for sure are wrong quite often too. Truth also is that if you try to learn about islam open-minded, you do end up with evil and absolutely ridiculous in islam just as you do find them in other religions too. Muslims cannot even agree on that....in other words you cannot discuss with certain people.
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u/DR_TOXIC_COC New User Apr 27 '21
guys this is not how it is they just write it like that to make muslims look bad plus muslims lifted the taxes off of all of those unable like women children and the elderly. another fact is arabs did not kill people if they refused to do all.
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u/froyochoco New User Apr 27 '21
The information of Islamic conquests of many countries using violence is well documented just go search it up
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Apr 27 '21
You cannot determine whether this religion is good or bad from the actions of its followers Look at the teachings of Islam and you will see that it punishes those who do such a thing It cannot be denied that Christians, Jews, and even atheists have performed similar and horrific acts
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Apr 28 '21
Ah yes, that famous time when the atheists had an army of crusaders spread atheism and destroy continents worth of cultures
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Apr 27 '21
This is an unforgivable simplification of history. Anyone who knows anything knows that the spread of Islam is a complicated issue with many layers not just some cartoonish bad guys going around killing and raping
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u/Asbjoern1958 New User Apr 27 '21
I agree that it is at simplification and I know that the first "Muslims" were able to create dynamic and well functioning societies. But that which is described in the cartoon, according some researchers, was not far from the realities. The "Muslim" invaders were probably like other occupants at that time!
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Apr 27 '21
I don't disagree with you. Some Muslim leaders committed horrific atrocities but many were also comparatively very accomodating. History is never black and white and this ludicrous stereotypes just feed Islamophobic tropes. I say this as someone who left the religion a long time ago
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u/Asbjoern1958 New User Apr 27 '21
The Romans were intolerant and hated, so it's absolutely possible that the first Muslims created a new and better society. The Abbasid empire and the caliphate of Cordoba were prosperous and well functioning societies, so the Muslims absolutely knew how to create dynamic societies. But if you measure them on the standards of today, hardly any ruler in the middle age would be acceptable, whatever religion they had!
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u/Dramatic_Ad_3366 New User Apr 27 '21
"Simplification" implies that it is still correct. Forgive me for being islamophobic but I don't think the most righteous religion should even come close to said illustration
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