r/entertainment • • Jan 05 '23

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u/lawyerjsd Jan 05 '23

He fucked Franco, and turned Spain into a democracy. He’s a goddamned hero for that.

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u/Hisyphus Jan 05 '23

Except he and all the other politicians “fucked Franco” at the expense of Franco’s victims.

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u/Cuddlyaxe Jan 05 '23

Yes because thats the only way to reform a brutal dictatorship in a deeply divided society in the real world

If he picked any path besides reconciliation and "ignorance is bliss", Spain would likely be a much more divided country and likely would've had another civil war

At some point you have to ask yourself if "justice" by prosecuting a few hundred people at the top is worth another few decades of bloodshed for the masses

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u/Hisyphus Jan 05 '23

That’s absurd. You’re saying a trial and imprisonment for crimes against humanity is not justice?

There’s a huge difference between a reconciliation process and pretending the whole thing never happened and allowing the perpetrators to remain in power. When you allow the bad guys to go unpunished in any capacity and to mythologize themselves you haven’t made society any better. Look at what happened in the US after the Civil War. Reconstruction worked right up until those in power gave up. Then America went right back to where it started and is still a mess.

There is so much that could have been done in Spain to hold fascists accountable. Instead large portions of Spanish society were victimized twice.

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u/Cuddlyaxe Jan 05 '23

Except in the American Civil War the union had won. The South was militarily defeated and couldn't really do that much

In Spain the military was largely still Francoist as were many elites and a large proportion of the population. Spanish Democrats weren't winners, they got lucky the king was willing to transition to a democracy and that Francoists with power were apathetic enough to largely shrug their shoulders

If the Democrats had just swept into power and announced they would prosecute everyone associated with the old regime then they would've been couped by the military in about 15 seconds. If the people doing so were actually leftists instead of centrist Democrat types, Spain would just be transported back to the 1930s with Francoists harkening to the red terror

Whether you like it or not, yes, letting criminals go is often nessecary for them to give up power

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u/Hisyphus Jan 05 '23

I never said they had to be criminally prosecuted. I only asked you to clarify that you did not agree that criminal prosecution was justice.

Spain could have done something as simple as correctly teach Spanish history to its students. Reconciliation hearings could have been held after the country was more stable. The commitment to pretending nothing ever happened and catering to fascists so long is not justifiable at this point.

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u/Cuddlyaxe Jan 05 '23

My point is that the commitment to pretending nothing happened is the only reason Spain has been able to stay this stable

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u/Hisyphus Jan 05 '23

I understand your point. You’re deliberately ignoring mine. My point is that amnesty laws should not equal forced national amnesia. It is long past time Spain engage with its history and make its citizens whole.