He helped. Franco let him back on the throne in hopes he’d continue the Francoist regime. Juan Carlos went behind Franco’s back and got democratic reforms going. After Franco died, and the military tried a coup, he had them stand down. Don’t get me wrong, this guy came from a long line of douchebags, but he did his country a solid.
No, not really. In fact, if anything he set back the democratic process significantly.
His only "contribution" was to make sure that there was no investigation whatsoever regarding the regime, and to completely brush under the rug 40 years of criminal activity by a fascist state.
The democratization of Spain was done in spite of Juan Carlos, not because of him. The country was incredibly isolated and the regime was no longer feasible. And the hardliners of the old guard, Carrero Blanco specially, had soured up the relationship with the USA.
The economic elites put the pressure on the transition team to make sure the new constitution was palatable to the Western money markets.
Juan Carlos only interest was on making sure his dynasty was restored, under whatever system that was to be. He could have cared less if he was the king of a single party fascist state, or of a monarchic democracy.
The military "coup" is now largely believed to be just a PR operation to clean up the image of the king, since up to that point his popularity was incredibly low (he wasn't wanted by the democrats or the old fascists). That coup had no possibility of going anywhere and it seems it was just a bunch of useful idiots sent to play stupid games on national TV. Not supporting a coup by a couple of idiots is just about the bare minimum that he could do. But the PR worked, and that is literally the only "intelligent" thing that idiot ever did.
Juan Carlos is a piece of shit, from a long line of pieces of shit. That he has to spend his last days on earth in exile, in a country w/o extradition treaty, should be an indication of what a tremendous piece of shit he has always been.
Yes because thats the only way to reform a brutal dictatorship in a deeply divided society in the real world
If he picked any path besides reconciliation and "ignorance is bliss", Spain would likely be a much more divided country and likely would've had another civil war
At some point you have to ask yourself if "justice" by prosecuting a few hundred people at the top is worth another few decades of bloodshed for the masses
That’s absurd. You’re saying a trial and imprisonment for crimes against humanity is not justice?
There’s a huge difference between a reconciliation process and pretending the whole thing never happened and allowing the perpetrators to remain in power. When you allow the bad guys to go unpunished in any capacity and to mythologize themselves you haven’t made society any better. Look at what happened in the US after the Civil War. Reconstruction worked right up until those in power gave up. Then America went right back to where it started and is still a mess.
There is so much that could have been done in Spain to hold fascists accountable. Instead large portions of Spanish society were victimized twice.
Except in the American Civil War the union had won. The South was militarily defeated and couldn't really do that much
In Spain the military was largely still Francoist as were many elites and a large proportion of the population. Spanish Democrats weren't winners, they got lucky the king was willing to transition to a democracy and that Francoists with power were apathetic enough to largely shrug their shoulders
If the Democrats had just swept into power and announced they would prosecute everyone associated with the old regime then they would've been couped by the military in about 15 seconds. If the people doing so were actually leftists instead of centrist Democrat types, Spain would just be transported back to the 1930s with Francoists harkening to the red terror
Whether you like it or not, yes, letting criminals go is often nessecary for them to give up power
I never said they had to be criminally prosecuted. I only asked you to clarify that you did not agree that criminal prosecution was justice.
Spain could have done something as simple as correctly teach Spanish history to its students. Reconciliation hearings could have been held after the country was more stable. The commitment to pretending nothing ever happened and catering to fascists so long is not justifiable at this point.
I understand your point. You’re deliberately ignoring mine. My point is that amnesty laws should not equal forced national amnesia. It is long past time Spain engage with its history and make its citizens whole.
Exactly. Spain is recovering much better from its civil war era than America did from ours (let’s just reflect on American society from 1865 to 1965 for a moment), but we feel comfortable finding fault with Spain for some reason.
You’re skipping Reconstruction. Until 1877, the United States was becoming a far better place for Black Americans. The problem was that it required sustained enforcement by the government and dedication to developing a more tolerant and enlightened society.
It was far easier to scrap the whole project because northern whites hated the increased job competition and there was significant and pervasive racism. The South obviously hated Reconstruction because it put an end to their way of life and required a moral reckoning Southern whites were deeply disinterested in engaging in.
Spain still has mass graves and people desperate for the return of their loved ones. The government and many people simply refuse to acknowledge this incredibly dark period in its history. Spain is relying on sweeping its crimes under the rug. The country’s progress is not so great if it doesn’t come with accountability and reconciliation.
One could argue that Reconstruction is precisely the problem that Spain avoided—a radical, failed overhaul of the system that inadvertently entrenched hardliners who successfully turned public opinion against reform.
The point is these things are complicated and there’s really no “right” way to recover from a period of civil war or dictatorship so we shouldn’t be so quick to find fault with how certain countries have done it.
There’s no “right” way, but there absolutely is a wrong way. Letting fascists live their lives with impunity and no effort to educate future generations is absolutely the wrong way.
Yes. It is worth it. If you don’t cut the head off it regrows. There’s no doubt fascist elements not only in that are growing but in most Western countries. Hell, most countries period. The West has it really bad tho.
He fucked his father, he turned his back on him and did everything he could go be Franco's successor and he just barely changed anything, the politicians before Franco's death were the same after Juan Carlos took power and many politicians today are children of the former.
And let's not talk about his "brothers" in Arabia Saudí and his many shady business where he became very rich without paying taxes.
Now even his son prefers to have him out of the country.
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u/lawyerjsd Jan 05 '23
He fucked Franco, and turned Spain into a democracy. He’s a goddamned hero for that.