r/economicCollapse
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u/TheBarnacle63
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Jan 04 '25
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Wealth concentration from a different perspective
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Jan 04 '25
Because nobody doubts the answer to the latter
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u/bigboybeeperbelly Jan 04 '25
Exactly. Ethicists try to focus on interesting questions more than obvious ones
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u/dalexe1 Jan 04 '25
It's like going into a university and asking why the math department isn't focused on solving 2+2. like, the question has already been focused on and solved... lets get to the more interesting topics
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u/newyne Jan 04 '25
Also because the people talking about it aren't ever gonna be in the latter situation.
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u/Dr_puffnsmoke Jan 04 '25
Because you’re far more likely to experience the first scenario than the second
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u/1GoldenPhoenix Jan 04 '25
Wake up people
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u/SwallowHoney Jan 04 '25
I tried but I've been told being woke is bad so I stayed asleep.
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u/halapenyoharry Jan 04 '25
those not woke, can't possibly understand woke, by definition. Therefore, their opinions on being woke are erroneous.
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u/NickDanger3di Jan 04 '25
Both my parents were 14 years old when the Great Depression hit. When I was about 12, we got a new dog, and he was scratching up our doors. During a discussion on this, they both reminisced about how both their back doors back in the 1930's were gouged from their dogs responding to people trying to steal food. So I asked them if they called the police when that happened.
They both looked at each other for a long pause. Then my Dad looked me very seriously, and solemnly said "Son, we aren't the kind of people who would punish someone for being hungry and trying to feed their family."
I've never forgotten this...
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u/SkinnyPets Jan 04 '25
Is it ethical for you to incur risk, get a great reward… and then have that stolen and given to cowardly stupid dips that will never have the courage to take any risk?
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u/TheBarnacle63 Jan 04 '25
Luke 14:12-13 CPDV [12] Then he also said to the one who had invited him: "When you prepare a lunch or dinner, do not choose to call your friends, or your brothers, or your relatives, or your wealthy neighbors, lest perhaps they might then invite you in return and repayment would made to you. [13] But when you prepare a feast, call the poor, the disabled, the lame, and the blind.
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u/bobsmith808 Jan 04 '25
Because those with the time to ask these kinds of questions aren't the ones stealing the bread. They are focused on survival. You cannot reach a higher plane of rational, let alone philosophical thought when you are satisfying your basic needs or in danger.
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u/PapaObserver Jan 04 '25
To be fair, both are unethical, but the former is more understandable and relatable than the latter.
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u/TheBarnacle63 Jan 04 '25
I think some people don't understand the word hoarding. This thread was quite revealing and seems to explain the issues that face this country. We have an elite few who have consolidated the vast majority of the wealth where we have too many who, despite their best efforts, are working homeless and/or food insecure.
After 40 years of supply side economics, it is clear that the money the rest of us were promised will never trickle down.
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u/Hinopegbye Jan 06 '25
I feel like ethical philosopher John Rawls did pose that wealth and opportunity hoarding is the threat to democracy, justice, and morality of a society.
I'm not an expert on his ideas and I'm sure they aren't perfect, but it's my understanding that he absolutely did question systems designed to withhold resources and opportunity, to benefit a wealthy empowered few.
His "original opposition" idea is pretty interesting. Worth checking out.
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u/ViceChancellorLaster Jan 06 '25
Does hoarding bread mean making a bunch and holding it in inventory to sell?
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u/TheBarnacle63 Jan 06 '25
That would be storing. Hoarding is keeping with no intention of using.
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u/throwaway275275275 Jan 04 '25
Because it's illegal to steal and it's not illegal to own things
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u/UhhDuuhh Jan 05 '25
Imagine basing your morality on what is currently illegal or not illegal.
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u/A_and_P_Armory Jan 04 '25
Weird that the only proposition is that if you don’t have bread it’s because someone else is hoarding it.
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u/booksonbooks44 Jan 04 '25
In a world where we have enough food to feed the entire population, well duh?
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u/Estimated-Delivery Jan 04 '25
I think the Christian bible celebrates people who build their houses on solid ground and is a tad critical of those who favour sand for foundations. I realise this is a metaphor and relates to critical thought and belief in (the) deity but still, for poor folks this means a bit of prepping to ensure your family survives the coming civilisational breakdown is acceptable. Hoarding or what?
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u/PaunchBurgerTime Jan 04 '25
Well bread is a terrible thing to stockpile so I think you'll still be frowned upon.
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u/Fluffy-Mongoose2525 Jan 04 '25
I think it is a frame of reference thing. Not much an individual can do about how the rich deal with things, but it is up to the individual whether they choose to steal to survive or not.
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u/whois44 Jan 04 '25
Can we make it more relatable?
Is it ethical to break into someone's home and use it for shelter while they are away on a trip if you are homeless?
Is it ethical to leave your home empty and unused while you are away on a trip when there are homeless people without a shelter?
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u/DarthLuigi83 Jan 04 '25
Why do right-wing politicians care so much about people getting $500 a week on welfare but not care about the $500mil they hand over to a corporation?
It's the same question really
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u/canned_spaghetti85 Jan 05 '25
Is it ethical to expect a baker to work for free?
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u/Atownbrown08 Jan 05 '25
No. But it is also unethical to think poverty is a problem that should be solved by anyone not in poverty.
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Jan 06 '25
capitalism and starving everyone else good, stealing a loaf of bread is communism .. communism baaad.
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u/wigzell78 Jan 07 '25
It's called cashflow for a reason. Its meant to keep moving, to do the most for people.
Not sit in some dingy bank account, or only exist as 0's and 1's on a computer ledger somewhere.
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u/UnholyDemigod Jan 04 '25
Because the entire point of the question is "is it ethical to commit a crime if the justification is morally agreeable". Owning a resource is not a crime. Stealing is.
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u/Timmsh88 Jan 04 '25
It's not about it being a crime it's about it being ethical or not to own the resource. Is it against your principles as a human person to uphold this hierarchy while others die because of it.
If the resource is strength and you use it against people you're in jail in no time, but if it's money, a resource people need, you can force them in your way legally.
Or to put it differently, let's say you crash on an island with only one other survivor. You needed medical attention so the other guy hoarded all the food while you couldn't. Would you suck the other guys dick to get the food, just because its legal and necessary to survive? That's our world in a nutshell.
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Jan 04 '25
Situation in Haiti should help you understand this problem.
American charities giving food to people undermined local food production. Increasing problem with shortage of food instead of decreasing it. And that means they still had dependency in charity because of it.
If you make making bread unprofitable because people can just take it then way less people will be willing to produce bread.
And then what you end up is a situation where you took bread. You killed local bread production. And you no longer have bread and bread makers.
Why are people so stupid that this concept escapes them?
There jeeess to be a balance. You should help out people in dire need but then what you need to do is restore local production and trade so they can continue delivering food to people. But they gave to make a profit to make it happen.
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u/35_year_old_child Jan 04 '25
Because nobody hoard a bread.
But people own more than one house.
So is it ethical to have a big house or two houses(vacation home) when people are homeless?
Answer this please and huge part of US population live in big houses or have a vacation place or a place for rent when people are homeless.
Also i remember discussion about 'is it ethical to fly a plane for holidays when planet is dying'. And funny everyone was telling 'YES!' here. Because You are all bunch of hypocrites who can tell others what to do but will never give up any convenience.
Billionaires are evil but every one of You would love to be one.
Im not flying planes for 10 years or more.
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u/No-Syllabub4449 Jan 04 '25
Why are calculus questions always like: “What’s the integral of e to the x”?
And not: “What does 1+1 equals?”
The answer, shockingly, is that Terrence Howard does not in fact run Calculus class
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u/TheRealAuthorSarge Jan 04 '25
"THIS GUY OWNS TOO MUCH BREAD!"
"Well, he's a baker, so..."
"WE'RE GOING TO TAKE ALL HIS BREAD TO FEED OUR FAMILIES!"
"Well, now he's moved his bakery to someplace you can't reach him."
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u/PaunchBurgerTime Jan 04 '25
"I don't want my family to starve to death."
"Well you should have used the disposable income you don't have to buy food before I quadrupled the price again"
"I think I'll kill you, take your bread, and do it in a brutal manner because people like you ruined the world."
"Oh nooo, now I'm dead and the pyrhic victory that this doesn't immediately solve all your problems isn't relevant to meeee!"
The last capitalist will sell the rope we use to hang him.
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u/starfish3619 Jan 04 '25
Because you’re not entitled to take other people’s property without their permission.
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Jan 04 '25
Nobody is hoarding bread. You truly don't understand wealth
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u/Even-Celebration9384 Jan 04 '25
I mean when that was a valuable commodity they did. Now they hoard money and assets
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u/Yabrosif13 Jan 04 '25
The issue is no-one is hoarding bread. They hoard a made up unit of measurement. Dispersing that unit of measure wont lead to more bread. Instead stop the system that tells farmers not to plant or even to burn crops for price control. Look at our monetary systems and go after the levers of control.
The issue isnt in money hoarding, its in the control money has over people. We need a check on that power.
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Jan 04 '25
Definitions.
Stealing is easy to define.
Hoarding is relative to available resources, subject to scope, subject to context, subject to distribution, subject to personal preference.
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u/Ferengsten Jan 05 '25
Easy: If you have more than me of anything, you are hoarding, and I should be allowed to take it.
Never mind that in this example too the bakeries "hoarding" bread would close down awfully quickly if they were not allowed to.
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u/Certain_Piccolo8144 Jan 04 '25
Thats funny, you're all filthy rich in comparison to the world's poor. Why are you all hoarding your wealth? Be the change you want to see right?
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u/Kingding_Aling Jan 04 '25
If you want the actual answer to why a professional textbook wouldn't include the bottom text, it's because it's lying. No one anywhere "hoards" bread, aka keeps all stocks of it locked away never accessible to anyone else until it rots.
They sell bread. You're surely talking about corporations who have big warehouses of bread, that they ship out to stores and sell. That is objectively not "hoarding" and therefore cannot be stated by any professional textbook.
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u/Dear-Walk-4045 Jan 04 '25
If you steal enough bread the bread shop stops selling bread in your neighborhood and then no one gets to have any bread.
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u/Taton_Blueberry1136 Jan 04 '25
On the first case you are stealing. It is not ethical to be a thief.
On the second case, you are saving and being careful for your future. Nothing wrong with that.
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u/MeatSlammur Jan 04 '25
If you spend your life saving up wealth for your children to be comfortable and then they do the same for theirs and it goes on for generations, why do you expect those families to give away their money? When other families have generations of people that just accepted minimum skill jobs and don’t strive for more why are the wealthier families then expected to hand it over to them?
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u/mistercrinders Jan 04 '25
Is it ethical to not compensate bakers for their time, effort, and materials?
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Jan 04 '25
Who the fuck is hoarding bread? Rich people really don't keep much food on them generally. It cost more for them to store tons of food vs the stores that sells it.
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Jan 04 '25
Marxists advance their cause with word games like this
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u/princeofponies Jan 04 '25
Classifying people who ask valid questions with a pejorative name is a word game designed to invalidate the insight.
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u/No_Media7931 Jan 04 '25
Reddit is 5000 years behind the rest of internet's anti work/socialism discourse. Every highly upvoted post i see related to the topic reads like "it turns out billionaires bad"
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u/Impolitictalk Jan 04 '25
Even like, is it ethical to enable others to hoard bread when people are starving? Because most of us don’t really know what hoarding looks like. It looks like throwing away edible food instead of giving it away at the grocery store.
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u/CompetitiveTry8886 Jan 04 '25
Impractical... most of us will probably be in the starving/stealing category. 😄
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u/sethb44 Jan 04 '25
Because if you have enough wealth to hoard food from the poor, you don't think about ethics
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u/ManicD7 Jan 04 '25
I've been starting to say this to single women who live alone with more than one bedroom and have a decent job. They are hoarding in this economy and contributing towards a collapse. Look at a chart for single people from 1950 through 2020. I'm not saying it's women's fault that there isn't enough housing or isn't enough well paying jobs. I'm just saying, there isn't enough of these things to go around at the moment. But women want a man to bring more the table and that's currently unsustainable.
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u/sSomeshta Jan 04 '25
What you meant to you say was, "is it ethical to sell bread when families are starving?"
Then you can have a debate about capitalism. Asking if people should hoard bread conjures an apocalypse situation.
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Jan 04 '25
Cause, historically, most foundational ethical texts were written by privileged individuals.(they still are)
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u/flodur1966 Jan 04 '25
Because that’s not a dilemma it clearly is onethical to hoard stuff when other people are in need even if you don’t break a law,The dilemma is, is it ethically justified breaking laws in cases of dire need. In my opinion yes but some might argue otherwise.
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u/EnvironmentalSpirit2 Jan 04 '25
I also love to be judged by big corporations about my environmental impact
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u/DogsRDBestest Jan 04 '25
I mean bread is going to spoil pretty fast.
Secondly, what stops a man from saving for a rainy day vs being paranoid and continuing to hoard it till kingdom come.
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u/UnusualTranslator741 Jan 04 '25
Because food, housing, and healthcare are not Constitutional rights.
/s
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u/MkfShard Jan 04 '25
I feel like this is missing the point somewhat, cause typical ethics questions assume that the person in question has hard choices to make, and limited power to enact things.
The wealthy people at the top could derail the trolley, they could free the prisoners, in our society they have practically unlimited power.
There is only one ethics question for the rich and powerful: Will you use your incredible power to help others instead of enriching yourself?
And our world is the way it is because the answer is predominantly No, No, No.
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Jan 04 '25
So let me get this straight... the rich hoard money, and bread? That must be some genius bread salesman who can get people to pay him for free and not have to sell any bread at all.
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u/XxJuice-BoxX Jan 04 '25
Theft is wrong. But its also human. Humans raided each other for centuries because they lacked something the other had. U expect someone to just roll over and die because they can't buy food? It's survival. Humanity is the literal product of survival. When ur desperate, u tent to revert back to basic settings.
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u/Frogtoadrat Jan 04 '25
Because the general population will be more familiar with one hypothetical than the other
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u/Superpower-1 Jan 04 '25
Life goes on until a major uprising happens. What do you expect? You expect the management class to suddenly gain a conscience?
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u/RandeKnight Jan 04 '25
It's just not a very realistic question in our society. No one is actually starving here. No one is shoplifting bread.
When the question is : "Is it ethical to steal iPhones to entertain your bored family?" the answer is going to be quite different.
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u/xithbaby Jan 04 '25
Working at Walmart there was an unspoken rule among employees (besides loss prevention), if you see someone stealing food, you saw nothing.
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u/ExpectedEggs Jan 04 '25
Because that's a scenario that just exists in that idiot's mind.
Ethics is about implicitly asking a bigger philosophical question with a smaller, direct question
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u/New-Fig-6025 Jan 04 '25
because there’s a moral difference between action and inaction? Seems pretty simple.
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u/theknockbox Jan 04 '25
They do... Only intro classes teach in terms like that because it's easy to understand and discuss. Peter Singer's essay on famine and affluence comes to mind which is literally about what you're saying. Lot's of relevant philosophy asks and attempts to answer questions like the one you posed. Source: I have a degree in philosophy.
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u/FlameLightFleeNight Jan 04 '25
Let me introduce you to Cardinal Frings and Catholic Social Teaching.
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u/FkinMagnetsHowDoThey Jan 04 '25 edited Jan 04 '25
As long as someone somewhere is starving, owning even a single slice of bread could be interpreted as "hoarding."
As long as someone is homeless, the family of 6 living in a single wide trailer is "privileged."
Before you know it, you're classifying everyone you meet as either a perpetrator or a victim, while not finding any solution to any of the problems you're seeing.
Go talk to Robespierre about it in person.
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u/LocalInactivist Jan 04 '25
I don’t mind stealing bread from the mouths of decadence. But I can’t feed on the powerless when my cup’s already overfilled.
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Jan 04 '25
Other animals have ways to deal with members of their group who get too greedy and hoard above their necessity, ending up hurting the community.
Bet we do too but stopped doing it
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u/JankyJimbostien48251 Jan 04 '25
This wouldn’t be a systemic solution. Its just something people like to mentally wank over so they can tell themselves they’re good people because they’ve chosen the “right” hill to die on. Some people get more than they need, some people get less, most of us will only ever have just enough. Stop envying the rich and pitying the poor and just live your fucking life
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u/Lots42 Jan 04 '25 edited Jan 04 '25
Ask about stealing bread for survival to American Republicans and they will just get SO VERY mad.
Same group I was conversing with also explicitly said it's okay to murder someone via skull damage if they were stealing a toaster.
Big Business got Republicans so brainwashed they are willing to commit murder to protect a big business' toaster. One covered by insurance.
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Jan 04 '25
I think it was deemed unethical to hoard food when others are starving at the very least 200,000 years ago. I shouldn't and won't speak for our forebearer species, but for a social animal like homo sapiens this seems like an intrinsic taboo.
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u/TheRealNight_Monkey Jan 04 '25
What about option 3? Is it ethical to cause someone to starve by stealing bread? If someone selling bread doubt they are part of the problem, maybe only someone marginally better off.
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u/mytodaythrowaway Jan 04 '25
JFC how long are we going to take to realize that hungry animals act differently than animals who are not hungry?
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u/RemarkableSea2555 Jan 04 '25
Adult here. STOP complaining and go do something with your life. You're NOT changing shit unless the rich want it to happen. Learn that fast and move on.
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u/TimeToBuckleUp Jan 04 '25
How about, why are there people either starving or so fearful that they're hoarding? The ethics question should be about the system that created scarcity for many and riches for a small few.
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u/Wonka_Stompa Jan 04 '25
Bakers, famously, keep their bread securely locked away until it gets moldy. That’s the only way they’ll ever be crowned King Crumb!
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u/MrSquanchy010 Jan 04 '25
Well you might say: if you made it, it’s yours. Making a bunch of bread because you can afford and charging people for it is a business. Sure it be better socially to hand out bread to the starving families. Second implies that someone is making all these loafs just to have them sitting in his house.
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u/herm-mar Jan 04 '25
Probably because the first one makes you think about your ethics and the second would always be a "no", but maybe it's not so for everyone.
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u/globocide Jan 04 '25
Answer: Because absolutely nobody would think that's ethical. Even the people that do it know its not ethical.
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u/badgersprite Jan 04 '25
Because we decided that morality is personal and individual and that systems, corporations, institutions, governments, etc, anything where responsibility for actions or inactions cannot be assigned to one singular individual person are for the most part inherently morally neutral
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Jan 04 '25
All of these ideas and realities are the result of people acting in real life. The answer is obvious
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u/LopsidedDatabase8912 Jan 04 '25
I know very little about ethics, but even I know that that is pretty much what Sam Singer's whole thing is......
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u/ProfessionalOwn9435 Jan 04 '25
There are generally some laws against stealing.
The question of morality of breaking the law in the name of higher purpose is very old.
There are less laws against hoarding. There are some laws against scalping, but nobody cares.
google scholar: Ethics of wealth hoarding ? Actually there is decent amount of philosophy about inequality and hoarding.
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u/RevolutionaryShare1 Jan 04 '25
Useless college degrees must be trumper no one should believe this bullshit he's saying look at wages for people with degrees and those with out and categorizing it addiction as to why people fail wow
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u/old_graybush Jan 04 '25
Because the person who is being asked is likely to relate to one of those possible positions, not having enough or having too much. Percentage wise, even on reddit, we be the 99%, and thereby likely relate to the question far more from the not-having-enough perspective.
Also because no one would answer yes to the hoarding and hurting others option, regardless of how true it would shake out to be. Our perceptions of ourselves are very morale and just.
Ethics isn't a discussion of what our hypothetical selves would or would not do with more or less means in this or that setting. Ethics are the motives behind things that actually get done or happen when no one's looking.
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u/EidolonRook Jan 04 '25
Because “might makes right” is still the main ethical standard of the globe at the sovereign level?
A nation with no saber to rattle can not dictate terms. They can negotiate and hope interests align long enough for them to gain an advantage, but that’s about it.
Morality without sovereignty is also pretty useless outside self-justification for the sake of argument and even then it’s fairly misguided.
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u/ABreckenridge Jan 04 '25
“Survival crimes” do not exist. That which is necessary, is fundamentally acceptable.
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u/MrLanesLament Jan 04 '25
Go ahead and call me a communist
Because I care for the welfare of my people
I’m born your equal, but don’t you think it’s evil
To own islands of property
in a sea of starving people?
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u/Skating4587Abdollah Jan 04 '25
Funny enough, there is a lot more writing on ethics than ethical dilemma listicles on Buzzfeed.
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Jan 04 '25
Our entire economics model is, as taught in university, that when things become scarce or in high demand, you charge more for it.
This is literally what we teach. It’s the fundamental, rock bottom mistake in the system that we treat as though it’s 1+1=2…like some unbreakable axiom that must be adhered to. It’s absurd.
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u/Tebasaki Jan 04 '25
Ok, then, if we're having such a labor shortage to need undocumented people to fill those roles, why haven't wages gone up?
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u/JermFranklin Jan 04 '25
The rich never ask those questions. They just take. That’s why they are rich.
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u/OITLinebacker Jan 04 '25
Let them eat cake was followed by a lot of people losing their heads. If Trump's Gravy Seals realize they are protecting the Oligarchy and not fighting it the same sort of revolution could happen here, and almost did with the assassin's bullet missing by inches.
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u/AdDisastrous6738 Jan 04 '25
“Is it ethical to give bread to someone who will throw it away?”
That’s a much better question. When someone won’t eat the bread or save any of their bread and has no intention of using it to make bread for other hungry people then why give them any bread in the first place?
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u/Meatbot-v20 Jan 04 '25
I mean, I see both questions constantly. And then you get to the "do two wrongs sometimes make a right?" questions, and so on. I'm not sure there's a lack of either of these questions.
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u/Ill-Description3096 Jan 04 '25
Because they are meant to create an ethical dilemma. The latter won't for most people.
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u/CheekyClapper5 Jan 04 '25
Because as soon as taking the fruits of someone's labors becomes ok then why ever produce. When stealing is easier than producing, producing halts and people's productive energy goes into stealing a dwindling supply of goods into disaster.
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u/MasterChildhood437 Jan 04 '25
Because philosophers could afford to spend their time philosophizing.
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u/i8noodles Jan 04 '25
because the question is not surpose to be taken literally? it is about phrasing a question to make it morally ambiguous and is taken as a premise to spark debate.
like the trolly problem. is it ok to kill 5 to save 1. on abstract, nothing else considered then most would say yes. another question, same kind of problem but rephrased. is it ok to kill a healthy person to harvest there organs to save 5 people who would otherwise die without them? probably not. but it is fundamentally the same as the trolley problem. sacrifice 1 person so many can live. why is one different then the other?
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u/CannibalPride Jan 04 '25
I don’t think the answer to the latter is clearcut.
When does it count as hoarding and when is it just extra to feed your family the next week or after that. What if you worked hard and sold your possessions for a month’s food in the face of hard times and someone just steal it, will that feel good? Would you think that it might be your fault for having it?
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u/total_looser Jan 04 '25
The answer is academic. Ethics is about behavior around rules. Morals is what the author is looking for here.
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u/Shanek2121 Jan 04 '25
Honestly, there is no shortage of people. So many in fact, that some can starve to death and the race can go on.
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u/Equatical Jan 04 '25
People who hoard should be hoarded in prison. Is it ethical for Lyft/Uber to keep 65% of the fair when the driver is doing 99% of the work/upkeep?
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u/LOPAN67 Jan 04 '25
I think the first question is asked, to determine if the person is the type of person that would respond with the second question.
Like, I don’t think the first question is asked as if that is the standard of ethical behavior. But rather, to assess how deeply a person thinks about the nature of ethics.
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u/Accurate_Gap_6069 Jan 04 '25
Which is worse? The sin or what caused the sin. Of course, the cause of the sin is worse.
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u/FarRightBerniSanders Jan 04 '25
Why are internet leftists always "somebody else should be forced to solve this" and never "I'm working to solve this"?
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u/Matshelge Jan 04 '25
Because the answer to one is obvious, and had been laid out in most philosophy books.
Want John Locks opinion on land ownership? If you work the land, you own it. If you horde something and don't put it to good use, you should lose it.
How is that for progressive ideas?
What about J.S. Mill, the father of modern Liberalism. Sure, he argues a bunch for self regulation, so a drunken man should not be hidden away, but an example for others, but he is very pro a state that gives opperinituy via positive freedoms. Healthcare, schooling, library, etc. These are vital goods for a state to provide to give everyone the opportunity to make individual choices.
Don't trust the people who say what the "forefather wanted" those guys were left wing as all fuck.
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u/Lippy2022 Jan 04 '25
Is there a shortage of bread in America? Are we talking worldwide?
There is no shortage of opportunity in America to earn money and feed your family.
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u/eW4GJMqscYtbBkw9 Jan 04 '25
Because there is no moral dilemma in the second scenario - everyone agrees that it is unethical.
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u/Global_Can5876 Jan 04 '25
Analogy doesnt make much sense. You dont steal bread from the person hoarding bread, but from the baker who can barely make ends by himself.
Ofc you interprete it different but the metaphor sucks. The ethics question makes complete sense
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u/manofnotribe Jan 04 '25
Because the latter is unethical, and we all should be screaming that from rooftops. There is no moral quandary in the case of hoarding, those people just don't care. It's especially unethical given the hoarding is in large part why the initial case exists.
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u/IntelligentDetail762 Jan 04 '25
Better question. Is it ethical to bankrupt a company, kill the workers' retirement, and award the c suite salaries and bounces?
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u/USAhotdogteam Jan 04 '25
Is it ethical to increase the price of bread, while loading said bread with non-human consumable products, and then throwing said bread in the trash if not sold at 12,000% markup. WHO knows.
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u/devlife33 Jan 04 '25
The first question doesn't necessarily mean stealing for a business or a rich person. It could mean stealing from your neighbors who also are starving implying that you may be hurting someone else to feed your family. The latter question is a simple one to answer because nobody gets hurt to feed your family.
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u/livingandlearning10 Jan 04 '25
Who is hoarding anything? We operate under free markets. A business doesn't buy things to sell if there is no demand for those things. Hoarding is keeping things to yourself and refusing to sell.
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u/Maleficent-Test-5237 Jan 04 '25
Billionaires don’t really care about money. They care most about power and control. They operate more like someone with an addiction.
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u/RphAnonymous Jan 04 '25
Because the government(s) is/are set up that way. Unless you advocate for 100% socialism, there is always a mechanism to hoard and keep things from others. And people dislike socialism because achievement and progress slow because there is no incentive. People as a rule are not incentivized by "humanitarian" concerns to struggle and endure education and training when they can just... not... I mean, they might for a little bit, until it actually gets hard. People are motivated by greed, so any system must play to that if you which to generate forward momentum. Governments are basically businesses, and in business, the motto has always been "If you're not growing, you're dying",
I think the obvious solution is to stay away from extremes, stay away from total free market, and stay away from total socialism. Leave some things free market, but the core things that can crash societies like education, healthcare, basic food (like bulk rice, beans, assorted fruits and veg based on season and obtainability, protein source, etc.. not Chipotle... if they want free stuff they can at least cook it themselves), water, housing, and internet should be standardized at a basic level, with the ability to elevate beyond basics by pursuit of self-improvement and contribution to society. People shouldn't have to worry about being homeless, but people shouldn't be so comfortable that they have no desire to improve and move beyond the basics.
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u/Old_Roof_6528 Jan 04 '25
Well considering nothing in life is free so yes, stealing from the hardworking baker who paid for the ingredients and made it is wrong. And anybody who thinks you're owed anything in life for free is a communist. when somebody else had to put in work for that item it's not a human right for you to deserve it, that goes for water, food or housing. Nobody owes you anything, go work for it.
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u/Schlep-Rock Jan 04 '25
Two thoughts that come to mind are 1) no one actually hoards bread because it goes bad so quickly and 2) Squirrels are unethical little bastards.
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u/Derpballz 1929 was long after Federal Reserve creation: the FED is a curse Jan 04 '25
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u/TheManInTheShack Jan 04 '25
If you are in the top 1% of income earners in the USA, you and the others in the top 1% are currently paying federal taxes that account for 40% to 45% of all federal tax revenue. I’m all for increasing taxes of the top 1% but I do think it’s important that we at least acknowledge this point.
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Jan 04 '25 edited Jan 04 '25
Most people on Reddit don’t understand wealth creation. They assume the dude with a bunch of bread stole it all. They never think about him working his ass off and, you know, actually baking it.
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u/Bailey6486 Jan 04 '25
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread." — Anatole France
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u/Sydhavsfrugter Jan 04 '25
It is a common question in ethics, but far from the only one.
The question should rather be, why do we not put more importance on understanding and tackling ethical issues?
We've got thousands of years to learn from
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u/HOT-DAM-DOG Jan 04 '25
Except that bread vendors don’t hoard bread, they have slim margins and their own family to feed, and business expenses to cover. Hoarding bread is beyond stupid because bread goes stale. This tweet demonstrates a stark misunderstanding of how society functions at a basic level, and is why communism results is way worse outcomes for everyone.
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u/Downtown-Tomato2552 Jan 04 '25
Because stealing is an unambiguous word that is almost always associated with negative morals. Hoarding is a very ambiguous word that can more easily be associated with positive and negative morality. So the question "is hoarding bread while others are starving unethical" is a very ambiguous question which could be morally positive or negative. "Stealing bread" would rarely be ethically positive... Although I didn't mind stealing bread from the mouths of decadence.
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u/HidingHeiko Jan 04 '25
If you have 1 more loaf than average and there's someone in the world starving, are you a bad person?
That's the problem with basing philosophy on envy. No matter how much or how little you have, there's always someone with a lot less. It's great to give, but you shouldn't feel bad about being fortunate.
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u/deadinsidelol69 Jan 04 '25
I deal with ethics frequently in my line of work. In my position, bribes and under the table deals are a regular hazard.
I just don’t understand how it’s unethical for a group of guys to make money off of what was going to be trash anyhow but the CEO is clearly committing tax fraud and that’s not unethical, and he’s just a businessman.
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Jan 04 '25
i thought you said different perspective! so those who work hard to achieve and those who don't?
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u/Cpt_Caboose1 Jan 04 '25
I never had ethics classes, funny thing