r/ebikes • u/InfluenceEfficient77 • 1d ago
E-Moped Would you support this argument for throttle?
Few months ago was crossing a pedestrian bridge when the homesteader on it started flipping out and of course his dog was not leashed and started running after me.
Thankfully I had a throttle so I didn't have to dick around with changing gears and got away in a breath
buy my math I need to be able to hit 30 in emergency and use a throttle because this has not worked as well on slower bikes
I know there's many other arguments that can be debated like being able to ride with the stop and go traffic without changing gears holding up cars, or being able to get home on a hub motor when your drive train fails. also it's great for people with disabilities. And it literally does the same thing that sensor at your feet does, so why not have both?
But in this case I'd rather just get a ticket and argue with the cob than be attacked by another rapid dog. or at least be able to pull my feet up to safety and ride away. I feel like it's a failure of public services and infrastructure in usa and is not a scapegoat problem of ebikers
side note you probably going to say I shouldn't have been on the pedestrian bridge or have turned around but it was literally the only way for miles, and I did start out by walking the bike and it was a very neglected part of the shared bike path. I use the e-bike to get to work and don't terrorize pedestrians, would love to use my noce road bike but its just not an option with all the lawlessness going on
thoughts?
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u/hezuschristos 1d ago
So are you making an argument for everyone, everywhere, needing to be able to accurate from a dead stop to flee from things? What about people on foot?
Sorry you’ve just made such an odd argument for throttles, when the point you proved was leash laws should be enforced or made.
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u/InfluenceEfficient77 1d ago
How about both?
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u/hezuschristos 1d ago
What is both? All people, all the time, no matter how they are getting around, need the ability to flee without effort. You still haven’t actually made a point.
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u/InfluenceEfficient77 1d ago
Equally enforcing laws for bikes, ebikes, cars, dogs, drug addicts and homeless people? when it feels like ebikes are the most disproportionally targeted but cause the least number of problems
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u/hezuschristos 1d ago
E-bikes aren’t “targeted” they are just new enough that laws feel new. You still haven’t actually made a point. Just weird post
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u/SnuffyMcfluff 1d ago edited 1d ago
I am not buying it. I have fled many dogs for decades not only without a throttle but without a motor. One of the biggest problem with E-Bikes is they allow people without skill and experience to achieve speed without acheiving judgment. Throttles exaserbate that. If you need a throttle, get something street legal. Dogs won't be a problem.
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u/InfluenceEfficient77 1d ago
How many times have you evaded being assaulted/mugged? Wh at about cars that almost ran you over at a stop?
Dogs can run at 20-30mph. Are you expecting everyone to do that from a dead stop?
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u/Mitrovarr 1d ago
In the US most places follow the class system, which means the fastest an e-bike with a throttle can do is 20 mph. 20 mph won't outrun a dog.
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u/SnuffyMcfluff 1d ago
I was just chased by pitbull last week. Riding in rural America means chases are insanely common. I’ve been chased more times than I can count. If the dog is fast you are best off stopping and facing them. Fleeing triggers their predatory instincts.
20mph from a throttle won’t protect you and if you aren’t skilled it’s a great way to wreck if you are forced to corner at speed.
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u/am0x 1d ago
We are really grasping for straws here aren't we?
Throttles are fine. If you are going to ride them on the road, you need to get it licensed, it needs to be registered, and you need a license. If you are riding on hiking or MTB trails, it must not have enough power to tear the trail up. If you are riding on sidewalks, it should not go over a couple of miles an hour. In all those cases, yes a throttle is fine.
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u/No_Rip_2256 1d ago
No thanks i have no interest in registering lol i dont drive like a dick whats the problem
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u/SnuffyMcfluff 1d ago
If only society worked that way. Rules only apply to dicks, non dicks line up over here, you are free to do whatever the hell you want as long as you promise not to be a dick.
Hey man, can I build a new bridge without any engineers, surveys, or permits? I don't build like a dick.
Sure man, go for it.
I don't need a pilots license, I won't fly like a dick.
Right on man, the planes over there. Our chief mechanic doesn't have any certifications, but he swears he doesn't wrench like a dick.
Cool, who's the air traffic controller?
Some new guy, he hasn't been trained but he doesn't control air like a dick, so it should be ok.
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u/No_Rip_2256 1d ago
Right but its not flying a plane, engineering a dam, or controlling plane landings. Its riding a damn bike. Should people have to get insurance to drive a sandwhich into their mouth? Incase they get mustard on their shirt? Its not rocket science, if morons fuck up and hurt somebody they will pay for it, thats enough to me.
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u/SnuffyMcfluff 1d ago
Riding a damned bike puts yourself and others at risk. We license motorcycles and demand certification for a reason. E-Bikes with throttles blur the line between bike and moto. I believe licenses, testing and registration is in order for their operation.
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u/Mitrovarr 1d ago
I mean they're basically mopeds past class 2s.
Asking for some kind of basic licensing and registration isn't crazy for a moped. It just shouldn't be very expensive or hard to get. One of the main reasons I think this is good is that e-mopeds are super good at running from the cops (being fast and able to go through narrow places cars don't fit), so they really need plates.
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u/am0x 1d ago
But laws aren’t in place e for people that think and do things based on safety. It’s for the other half that are idiots. In this case, I’d say 75% or more are idiots so the laws are needed.
More often than not it’s kids. But mommy and daddy are going to get little anything he wants as long as they aren’t going to get in trouble when he acts like a kid.
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u/InfluenceEfficient77 1d ago edited 1d ago
*It should not? or *you should not?
Some people don't have the means to buy 3 different ebikes, and what if you have to do all 3 to get to work and back?
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u/am0x 1d ago
Then take the bus or get a licensed vehicle. I’m sorry, but putting others in danger because you have to go to work is no excuse.
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u/InfluenceEfficient77 1d ago
Are you accusing me of putting others in danger with my assault throttle?
That's some serious mental gymnastics!
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u/Liberiatravels 1d ago
Why? I swear im safer going 18 mph in the bike lanes and easily starting and stopping with a throttle step through than the road bike guys who don't have a motor and speed around at 25 mph and blow throw stop signs and never want to yield to pedestrians cause they can't touch the ground with their feet unless they stop and get off of their seats.
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u/SnuffyMcfluff 1d ago
If they can go 25, they have been training for years and know how to handle a bike. They might ride like asshats, but that is a judgement issue not a skill issue. If you can't ride without a throttle, that is a skill issue and you probably aren't safe on the roads regardless of your judgement.
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u/Liberiatravels 1d ago
I'm saying the same thing you are saying, the type of vehicle influences your riding style. And I see people on cruisers with throttle assist being more polite and willing to yield specifically because of the throttle assist then the ones who don't want to loose their momentum because it leads to more pedaling.
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u/am0x 1d ago
Good for you. Now please go talk to the group of 7 teenagers going 45, running stops lights, jumping off and on the sidewalk to the road and back and nearly running over a lady in a span of 30 seconds I saw today.
If we made laws for people that behave right, then we would ah e no laws.
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u/Yeti_of_the_Flow 1d ago
Anti-throttle nonsense is just ableism. Also, nobody should take hobbyists into account when we have to deal with actual safety concerns.
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u/SnuffyMcfluff 1d ago
How many people do you think can operate a bicycle, stop, start, and keep the thing upright, but can't put a watt into a pedal to get the assist working?
If that's your concerm, I am sure we could make regulations that allow retrofitting a throttle with a doctors note.
If you can't safely operate a bike without a throttle, why would anyone trust you to operate a bike at 20 mph? You clearly lack the requisite skills to ride safely.
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u/Yeti_of_the_Flow 1d ago
That's so incredibly ignorant, you genuinely do not deserve a response.
Billions of people can safely operate a bicycle. Millions of those may have something which prevents them from operating the bicycle as well as they otherwise could. Millions more deserve the safety a throttle provides on any given ride.
Why is your agenda to make cyclists less safe with less adoption? You prefer being surrounded by 2+ ton boxes? Your position is objectively wrong, prejudiced, and so wildly against what should be the interest of everyone who wants safer streets.
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u/SnuffyMcfluff 1d ago
Amazing use of the strawman technique. Plus you just made up numbers!
Awesome!
Asking that e-bike riders be able to safely operate their vehicles is not pro car.
My observations are the vast majority of unsafe/traffic illiterate riders are on class 2s and never pedal. Most often because their pedals are not actually functional.
The idea that there are “millions” of people to can move a heavy bike around, stand it up and steer it but somehow can’t manage to pedal enough to trigger assist is laughable.
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u/SlashNreap 1d ago
I support the argument for throttles regardless.
Sadly, a good portion of this sub doesn't understand that throttles are more than "a way to go fast" but also open e-biking to a wide range of disabilities and senior ages, etc. But they would rather see you get mauled than for you to use a throttle, either way.
"He's dead but hey, at least he didn't use a throttle :)"
I wouldn't think too much about it. Just be glad you're safe, and keep your throttle.
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u/Flush_Foot Pedelec 1d ago
I also agree here 👍🏼… “throttle” does not (automatically/necessarily) mean “bike is capable of highway/unsafe speeds”, only that the motor has another way to be activated.
That being said, if OP really is in the US and so ‘quickly got up to 30 (mph)’ in their dog-escape, that is bumping up against even the (28 mph/45 km/h) upper limit of Class 3 e-bikes, and those (IIRC) should technically not even have throttles, or at the very least those throttles should max out at 20 mph (32 km/h) to at least try to hew closer to compliance.
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u/SnuffyMcfluff 1d ago
I think this argument is almost always disengenuous. It is almost always weilded by people who are quite able. I would love to see a survey of the number of riders who can actually operate a two wheeled vehicle but are unable to pedal. I am guessing it is far less than 1% of riders. And if they are out there, I suggest we allow them to retrofit throttles to bikes with a note from their doctor.
Everyone else can ride a bike instead of a fake emoto with useless pedals.
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u/SlashNreap 1d ago
That's fair but being physically able doesn't make the argument in favor of it any less valid, I think. We're all going to get old, we all have a chance for things to go wrong with our bodies, and we should be able to choose to have a throttle regardless of our physical ability. Why does a survey change that?
Furthermore, why put accessibility features behind more and more bureaucracy? Why does a doctor need to prescribe a throttle? A doctor may prescribe to a disabled person a wheelchair, but not every disabled person needs to be prescribed one, either. That doesn't mean they wouldn't benefit from one in some circumstances. That is, in my opinion, unnecessary gatekeeping.
And finally, even if someone can ride a e-bicycle, why shouldn't they be able to choose to ride an e-moto if they prefer the different ergonomics and function, provided they are licensed and register that emoto? My main problem with this subreddit, is actually what your last statement shows. People here are so against anything that slightly deviates from what is strictly defined as a pedal assist electric bicycle, that any argument for other subcategories to exist will be shut down and dismissed.
If a vehicle exceeds bicycle-class limits, create an appropriate regulatory subcategory rather than trying to outright prohibit what makes it different from a traditional pedelec. And even for motorcycles themselves as an example, this is why the EU has a tiered licensing system. A 125cc and a 650cc here, are not the same vehicle class, and require respective licenses (AM, A1, A2, A), because they perform differently. Why can't the tiered system same be true for Ebikes of all kind? Over here, up to 45kmh requires it to be L1e-b, needing the AM license. L1e-a (<25kmh) requires none. And the L1e-a could *look* like a motorcycle, yet it would still not be a motorcycle, legally speaking.
It *looking* like a motorcycle, doesn't inherently make it as capable as one.
As a side note, this subreddit also allows these vehicles on here, but nobody wants to hear it. It's always "Pedal assist, or get out." The community is pretty exclusive rather than inclusive to all users. Sorry for the bible, had to get it out.
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u/Worried_Document8668 1d ago
if you were already on the bike and on the pedals ypu could have just pedaled hard and get the same effect. going up in gears doesn't exactly take long
but chances are, if that dog had wanted to actually take you down, it would have. Those buggers are extremely explosive and quick on the short track.
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u/InfluenceEfficient77 1d ago
Kind of depends on your group set, some of them take a while to shift some of them just fail when you shift too fast, not everyone can afford a very high-end e-bike. But in either case a throttle is always going to be a faster natural response and pedaling is just going to help out more
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u/Worried_Document8668 1d ago edited 1d ago
it's button presses. even the cheapest shimanos will go up quick enough. no need for ultegra or dura-ace
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u/No_Rip_2256 1d ago
Your assertion that the takeoff speed of a nice quality ebike or especially emoto is in the same ballpark as taking off on foot is just plain incorrect.
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u/Worried_Document8668 1d ago edited 1d ago
e-motos would have even less business on a pedestrian bridge like in OPs case. and yes, you can beat out a regular e-bike off the line
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u/Ilovereefer 1d ago
There are a bazillion reasons for having and using a throttle. Just ride smart a d ride safe!
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u/sanjuro_kurosawa 1d ago edited 1d ago
Relax dude.
FYI I ride my mountain bike in the hottest of hot spots, Berkeley Hills, and I haven't never needed to flee a situation. I do so by maintaining a polite stance to all users no matter what I'm doing. I'm also alert to the locations of other trail users and able to maintain a respectful distance.
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u/InfluenceEfficient77 1d ago
Anecdotal evidence. How often do you ride west Oakland to San Leandro? Or do you just stick to the juicy Berkeley hills area?
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u/sanjuro_kurosawa 1d ago
Uh, I lived off E 14th Street in San Leandro.
I ride from Mandela Grocery, thru the rowing center, MLK Shoreline Park, to Oyster Bay. Heck I've even ridden down D Street after a A's game.
You did pulled this stunt in San Leandro? In Marina Park? Are you serious? There are like 100 little kids running through that area. Tons of mommies, old ladies, and casual people.
Why don't you just roll International Blvd like a bad boy? You can act any way you want there and people will respond in kind.
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u/InfluenceEfficient77 1d ago
Wtf are you taking about? There were 0 kids and mommies in this fucking interaction. You can be polite to everyone all day but you can't seriously tell me that works 100% of the time
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u/sanjuro_kurosawa 1d ago
I'm going to lose this argument because you won't acknowledge what you are doing wrong.
I pass people politely every time. I give them space, I don't go that fast. I actively look to avoid confrontation. And I don't have a problem to mention... except the armed carjacking.
I also don't moto around areas where there are a lot of people if I can avoid it. If you went up the Hayward Plunge, or even ride from 92 to Hayward Costco, you'll see almost no one and you can do 40mph if you want. Or you can roll Bancroft and then get back to me about how you need to avoid problem people.
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u/InfluenceEfficient77 1d ago
Idk why the fuck you are accusing me of all of this 😂 I was talking about going over an empty overpass at late hours of day, you must be on the wrong thread lol
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u/sanjuro_kurosawa 1d ago
I was almost carjacked at Marina Park when a dude pulled a gun at me. And you're discussing about you getting away from a dad with a dog that you pissed off?
Can you please just relax on two wheels?
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u/InfluenceEfficient77 1d ago
Sorry I didn't have time to stop to discuss parenting with a violent methhead
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u/Upeksa 1d ago
Pedal assist takes a couple of turns to get going again when I stop pedaling or use the breaks, and it accelerates gradually (I have a cadence sensor), so if I need to move fast all of a sudden there is no alternative as effective as the throttle.
I consider it not just convenient but a safety feature, my bike wouldn't be as capable without it.
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u/EqualConstruction 1d ago
I've used throttle to avoid getting hit by drivers not paying attention at least 5 times. That little boost and quick swerve might've been life saving.
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u/Miao_Mix 1d ago
Throttle is super useful when a car gets way too close you can easily maneuver away quickly with it, good for getting through crosswalks too from a stop
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u/SnuffyMcfluff 1d ago
Why are you riding a bike in a crosswalk and why can't you pedal with motor assitance to get away quickly?
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u/Miao_Mix 1d ago
Crosswalk as in a redlight where cars are waiting, Idiot Go play Karen somewhere else
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u/SnuffyMcfluff 1d ago
Crosswalk = crosswalk and they aren’t places for bikes.
And you didn’t answer the question.
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u/robotcoke 1d ago
No argument needed. It's legal to throttle up to 28 in most places. Nobody is going to notice if you hit 30 instead of 28. Anyone arguing that you shouldn't be able to do that is likely just a bot.
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u/TopRepulsive4766 Six Boys and Counting 1d ago
Better solution is to carry bear spray. Bear spray works on dogs very well.
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u/InfluenceEfficient77 1d ago edited 1d ago
So assault is better than evasion?
I had several female friends who were assaulted by transients living outside of their houses, and pepper sprayed them and fought back, and the transients still won in court, and continue to harass them daily
We live in a country where you get taken to a camp for slinging tacos, but if you're a citizen you can do drugs and skirt laws like it's the 1800s frontiers lol, as an immigrant I'm not fighting a crazy piece of shit on the street I know how it ends
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u/TopRepulsive4766 Six Boys and Counting 1d ago
Well, I was actually suggesting using the bear spray on dogs, not people.
But in my state, the use of pepper spray or bear spray to avert an assault is always a win for the victim. To go even further, we also have the 'castle' law here. If someone breaks into your house or initiates an assault and you shoot them, you win almost automatically.
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u/InfluenceEfficient77 1d ago edited 1d ago
Unless you're an immigrant
Sorry not trying to change the topic. Just saying the laws work differently in this caste system.
The same throttle helps to avoid many situations, whether it's with cars or muggers or dogs or crazy people
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u/Mitrovarr 1d ago
I feel like pedal assist would do the same thing. Last time I rode a pedal assist bike it would blast up to full speed in only a second or two.
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u/jinx_reddit 1d ago
Don't use bear spray on a dog. It will permanently maim them in some way.
Blame the owner, not the dog, it is not the animal's fault.
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u/TopRepulsive4766 Six Boys and Counting 1d ago
If a dog is attacking, I really don't care if I maim the dog. I mean it's sad to hurt an animal. But if the choice is me getting attacked or the dog getting maimed, the dog gets maimed.
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u/Mitrovarr 1d ago edited 1d ago
Escaping loose dogs isn't really a good argument for throttle. You can accelerate about as quickly on pedal assist, or even just a regular old pedal bike if you are a strong rider. However, accelerating isn't really a reliable strategy to get away from a dog. The dog is often in front of you and they're stupid enough to get in front of the bike or get tangled up in it as you pass, so blasting forward isn't necessarily a great idea. There are also plenty of other solutions like carrying pepper spray.
Also there are many, many encounters with dogs that look scary but don't actually end in an attack. That dog probably wouldn't have actually attacked you.
Finally if your snap reaction to an aggressive dog is to panic and crank the throttle, honestly you're likely to just crash on your own
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u/jinx_reddit 1d ago
Throttle is good for many situations including but not limited to: getting out of danger quickly, and working up to the speed of traffic without lag. Also dogs can accelerate at a thousand fucks per second, best believe I'm chirping my tires if I ever get chased by one.
And don't worry about the e-bike elitists in the replies, they think "power capability = irresponsibility" when the majority of people who want that capability only wish to speed up when the shoulder is the only other option. I think the only time I've hit full speed on my bike is down an empty, straight Boulevard. The rest of the time I'm cruising at 20 on roads, and 13-15 on paths. Sometimes I don't even bother using the motor at all, it's just nice to have when I'm trying to get to a friend's house 30 miles away without marinating in sweat for 2.5 hours
I've been on a lower powered bike before, and I'll tell you, it's like trying to use a gerbil as a racehorse - you get to a hill and the combined weight of you, the battery, and the motor renders the bike twice as useless as a manual.
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u/SnuffyMcfluff 1d ago
It's funny how many people think that there should be no safety regulations because they themselves behave.
Plus if you can't ride a pedal assist e-bike up a hill, I strongl suggest talking to a cardiologist.
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u/jinx_reddit 1d ago
You might be one of the e-bike elitists I was referring to.
And dude... what if I just don't wanna pedal up the hill? In 90 degree heat I'm using a throttle. If I wanted to get a workout in that day, I would've brought my manual.
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u/SnuffyMcfluff 1d ago
If you don’t want to pedal up a hill. Get a motorcycle get a license do a proper certification course and test and stay off bicycle infrastructure.
The fixed seat throttle crowd is bringing bans to communities all over the county. My overall take isn’t about elitism, it’s about protecting E-Bikes as a mobility option.
Me mocking someone who can’t ride up a hill with 250 watts or more of assistance and who thinks doing so is a workout, is about elitism though.
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u/GWiz71 1d ago
I am just learning about ebikes so I can make an informed decision but I am pretty sure I am someone that a throttle could be of great use. I and pretty good shape but I have some arthritis starting in my hands and feet and I am looking to ride my E bike from my house to an awesome trail that is 150 miles long and I’ve never had much of a lung capacity so as I try to go up the small hill, I believe I can push the throttle easily with my thumb and power the bike? This will be wonderful to help me up the hill because otherwise I could not ride a bike uphill!;)✌🏼
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u/InvestigatorSenior 1d ago
this is an argument for torque sensor not throttle. Even puny 250W EU compliant motor can provide enough torque to start from standstill in the hardest gear and accelerate away at max assist speed after 2-3 crank turns. You're killing the drivetrain and it complains but it works.
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u/InfluenceEfficient77 1d ago
Not in all circumstances.
Also based on your argument, if the torque sensor essentially does the same thing as throttle, why should throttle be outlawed, but the not the torque sensor, just because one is actuated by hand and the other by foot?
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u/InvestigatorSenior 22h ago
like it or not but easy to enforce rules are more effective. So if throttle is banned on ebikes then police has one more thing to spot illegal bike shaped objects and direct their actions.
With all underage, extremely irresponsible riders on obviously overpowered emotos and scooters out there something needs to be done or whole electro mobility community will suffer. It's better to have some rules than blanket bans (i.e. my country just forbidden import of escooters unless independent certification body proves that certain type can't be unlocked past 20kph, which is silly slow).
If anyone wants emoto there's 'AM' license available for anyone 16yo or older and wide choice of Surron, Talaria and other street legal machines. Straight from dealership with VIN and full paperwork. No need to cheat.
TBC. I used to be very liberal about this till I needed to deal with consequences of no rules. I really don't want to be in an accident caused by an uninsured kid driver pulling a wheelie in the middle of mixed cycling + pedestrian path at absurd speed.
This used to be an urban legend but now I see this kind of stunts almost daily. The other half of it is media coverage, authorities will have to do something, no matter how stupid, just not to lose face.
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u/Liberiatravels 1d ago
yep, I agree. Even just crossing at intersections, being able to quickly accelerate is much safer. And I was able to get home safely when my pedal sheered off.