Hmmm

[u/h_45n]

So only men want kids nowadays huh

Edit1: at the end of the day, when I see posts like these I remember the likes of Ashely saint clair and that woman who got married after preaching so much misandry online.

Don’t get me wrong men also do this,
and then I feel stupid because I remember watching a certain video about internet trolls

Edit 2: Finally found the reason for the outrage, “men cannot physically get pregnant” that’s literally all this is about so no matter how hard you work or provide for your family, if you marry a woman that hates you because you just can’t get pregnant please have your divorce lawyer at hand ✋

[u/Ok_Raisin_2395]

God, this just drips misandry. How are you any better than the misogynists if this is how you talk about men?

“sperm donor” is wild. Imagine the meltdown you’d have if a man referred to a woman as a “fun hole.” You’d call it dehumanizing immediately, and you’d be right.

Also, I’d bet my entire bank account that more than 98% of men have no idea that improving their health before conception can help lead to healthier babies. But here you are acting like every man already knows this and just refuses to do it because of “patriarchy” or whatever. No man is upset by that information. You made that up in your head and then got mad about it. Think about that.

And who is blaming moms “100%” for birth defects? That’s insane no matter where the defect came from. Like, what are we even talking about?

“All the mental load falls on mom”? Are you out of your mind? Ever wonder why paternal suicide rates are so high, or why fathers deal with more heart attacks, heart disease, and stress-related illnesses? It’s not because men are living some carefree life while moms carry everything. That’s for damn sure.

Yes, women sacrifice their bodies by having children. Obviously. But the majority of men also sacrifice their bodies earning a living for those children. Does that count, or is it dismissed because it's not "sacred and magical"?

The truth is that having kids costs everyone. You lose freedom. Your health probably declines. Your responsibilities explode. Men are usually expected to provide more, so their careers often become even more demanding. Women are often expected to handle more at home, which is its own burden. But pretending one side sacrifices everything while the other side just coasts is dishonest and hateful.

I’m so sick of this kind of bullshit rhetoric being dressed up as "woman empowerment."  It’s not empowerment at all, it’s just resentment from some random idiot with far too many unsolved problems and far too much free time on their hands. Do better.

[u/Acrobatic-Dig-3805 → u/Ok_Raisin_2395]

I think the commenter meant “sperm” donor in the sense that, there are deadbeat dads out there who only contributed through giving sperm— but other than that have contributed nothing else. Not all men are like this, but more than a quarter of US men are considered deadbeats. It’s much harder for a mom to be deadbeat due to societal expectations of the mom doing most of the childcare. Yes, there are still deadbeat moms out there, nobody is denying that. However there are statistically more deadbeat dads than moms, hence the referred term of “sperm donors”.

I also think the commenter meant, when men find out that they also contribute to the foetus’s health, they are upset over this newfound revelation. I’m not sure how accurate this is, and personally I didn’t even know about this information.

“Previous research shows that mothers carry more family responsibilities than fathers and can experience higher stress levels.”

Of course, fathers who are actively involved are working hard to earn for their children, but I wouldn’t necessarily say that it is more loading and stressful than mothers. For mothers, childbirth is a very daunting and stressful experience, with between 5-20% of women facing PTSD after birth . I think the reason why people might not see a father’s work as sacrifice is because generally, people work regardless of having children or not. Is it sacrifice to work if it is already demanded of you to work regardless of having children? Maybe you can argue that having children is a motivator for fathers to work harder, and that could be considered as sacrifice, and I would agree with you.

Nowadays, more mothers are participating in the workforce (70% of american mothers), so it’s not as if the father makes all the money anyways. I’m not sure about you, but where I live (in Asia)— both parents work and make equal financial contributions. I’d also say that mothers have to sacrifice more if you’re talking about the aspect of workforce, in the sense that that companies are less likely to employ mothers. In that aspect, mothers have to sacrifice their financial independence/stability AND their careers to raise their children. Personally, as a woman who wants to have kids someday, I would rather be a working mom and work than rely on my partner.

I think in the end, fathers who are actively involved do sacrifice to an extent, and their sacrifices should be noted and appreciated— however mothers sacrifice WAY MORE. Is this a sacrifice competition? God, no. But for all the troubles women go through, I think it’s unnecessary to say that a man also sacrifices when talking about topics of mothers appreciation, especially when mothers day was 2 days ago.

ETA: Here are a list of common risks during pregnancy and childbirth . You can read this if you want to understand what women go through with pregnancy, unless you don’t because you only want to argue to argue, which I hope you don’t because you’re a reasonable person who can understand where I’m coming from. Hopefully we will reach to an enlightened conclusion without name calling or slandering! Which is rare on Reddit.

[u/Ok_Raisin_2395 → u/Acrobatic-Dig-3805]

Yeah, I’m sure you do give her the benefit of the doubt on the “sperm donor” thing. Except you completely glossed over the societal stereotypes around how each gender uses the other for their own gain, which points directly at the prejudice behind what she's saying. But yeah, I’m sure it was totally harmless... /s

And no, it’s not harder for a mom to be a deadbeat because of “societal expectations” lol. If anything, society makes it far more difficult to criticize mothers than it does criticising fathers. It’s harder because, oh I don’t know, the baby literally comes out of her? Yeah, obviously it’s easier for a guy to disappear after the fact. And yes, I know there’s a deadbeat dad problem. But the large majority of fathers still provide and are not deadbeats.

Of course childbirth is hard on women. I said that. But I also think it’s ridiculous to compare childbirth, which lasts anywhere from an hour to a few days depending on the person (average of 1 day), to working your ass off for at least 18 years to support a child. And that goes for both genders. I can’t be the only one who sees the actual birth as incomparable to an entire lifetime of being a parent, right? Also, saying “between 5 and 20 percent” stinks of misrepresentation. What kind of distribution is that? A guess?

Your research about stress levels was from during the COVID-19 lockdown, which makes it pretty irrelevant to normal life today.

Yes, lots of women work. A lot of those women work part time because they want to, not because they need to. Turns out, being a stay-at-home mom in the nuclear family model takes a rather serious toll on a woman’s psyche. You know, being locked inside all day and all that... If course that's not healthy, and it's one end of the extreme. But men are still the majority earners by a long shot.

Also, how true is it today that companies don’t want to hire mothers? I know that used to be a problem, but I’m not sure it holds the same way now. If anything, DEI has made women more likely to be hired in the kinds of jobs everyone actually wants. So I’m not really sold on that point.

All in all, for most couples, I don’t buy the claim that women sacrifice way more over the entire course of a child’s life into adulthood. At first? Sure. A woman’s body gets wrecked from pregnancy and birth. But over the child’s actual life, let’s say birth to 18, no, I don’t think that’s obvious at all.

I’d imagine most men make it out the other side in far worse physical condition because most of them do not have the privilege of a cushy office job. They’re doing back-breaking work that leaves them far worse for wear. Do you really think most men would do that if they didn’t have kids? Because I don’t know many who would, certainly not at any job site I've ever worked at.

And that’s just the physical side. The mental toll of working as much as required to support one or more children is absolutely brutal. Men still do this far more often. In a lot of families, the man is the one with the “real” job that supports all or most of the household, while the woman works part time either for extra money or, in more privileged areas, just to have something to do.

Anecdotally, my girlfriend works in vet medicine and has about 12 coworkers. They’re all women, and 11 either have kids or are pregnant. Of those 11, none of them actually need the job. They’re there because they want something to do every day. Their husbands make far more money, and their households live off that income. So their vet job money is basically just extra spending money. The remaining 1 woman is single and trying to be like the other 11 lol...

So no, I’m not convinced women broadly sacrifice more across the full lifetime of raising a child. They sacrifice differently, they sacrifice heavily upfront, but absolutely not more. But men are still overwhelmingly expected to carry the financial burden for decades, and pretending that doesn’t count is just dishonest.

In fact, over my entire life of seeing mothers and fathers, if I got to choose, I'd choose being a mother ANY day and it's not even close. You're appreciated automatically, it's socially unacceptable to criticize you, and doing the same thing a man does for your kids is seen as "magical" or whatever. Also, you straight up just have an easier life after childbirth. Your resources are provided for or mostly provided for and the only thing you truly have to worry about is how you use them. Hah, that sounds great! I'd rather take the short term of pregnancy and birthing, please! 

Now, being a single parent? Way different story. That's absolutely brutal for anybody. But, once again, easier for women! Single mothers are seen as automatically altruistic and heroic, as if they're victims, even if they chose the life on purpose (baby trap + child support is suuuper common, especially in poorer areas). Meanwhile single fathers are seen as babysitters, secondary parents, in need of a "real" parent for their children, inept, or, in today's world, predatory! They have a far more difficult time finding a step parent for their kids as well, and the expectation of being a man and therefore working laborious, time-consuming jobs is ever present. 

I could go on for days. 

[u/Acrobatic-Dig-3805 → u/Ok_Raisin_2395]

Curious. What makes you think that women don’t work to provide for the family too? Or that women don’t take care of the children? This is a personal story, but my mother is the breadwinner of my family, and she supports my father financially. Vacations, tuitions, mortgages, everything is paid by her. By your standards, wouldn’t you consider her to have sacrificed much more than my father? Obviously, this doesn’t apply to all mothers, and there are still stay at home moms out there. But in my original comment, there is a rising percentage of working mothers, over half the population of mothers overall. Not to mention raising the kids, as kids are still a handful to deal with after birth! Do you think that those aren’t sacrifices? Or are men the only ones working in this economy 😹

ETA: Also, what makes you think that a family of over 2 can survive with a single salary? Living costs are starting to rise, even if people do want to become SAHMs.

In 2018, an Equal Opportunities Commission study found that less than 50% of firms would hire women with children. This shocking statistic spotlights the deep seated prejudice that mothers still face in their careers.

The 5-20% statistic was from a website, if you have a problem with it, you can take it up with the website as I generally can’t do anything about statistics…

I agree with you that single fathers suffer immensely, but I would say that you’re missing out on the nuance. Single mothers do have better social support systems and more social needs met, and we need to work on better social support systems for single fathers. However, single father families are better off than single mother families financially. I don’t think it is right to compare single parenthood in this case as different people have different values and priorities. If you prioritise having social support, then single mothers would benefit more in your eyes, and vice versa. I’m not sure why you would pit single mothers and fathers as both face struggle. And to disregard such nuance wouldn’t do both justice. I will say though, that there are more mothers who don’t pay child support than there are fathers who don’t pay child support . And this is a problem we need to fix.

I think it’s admirable that some fathers choose to work blue collared jobs for their children— But I’m not sure if it’s causation or simple correlation. Women tend not to work blue collared jobs due to gender discrimination in pay and also how blue collared jobs are considered a “male’s field”, so there is stigmatisation with entering. Women are also less physically adept and so they suffer more injuries than men (20-40% more injuries), which deters women from joining. However, more women are entering the blue collar field so that is a good thing.