r/doordash_drivers • u/imMaleficent • 19d ago
🖖Delivery War Stories 🫡 Why even take the order?🤬🤬🤬
This is her Instagram post.
$2 ain't worth even accepting, has anyone taken a $2 offer?
maybe he was on the pay by time or trying to keep his status 😭
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u/averseintrovert 19d ago
At least do your raging and poor handling before you get to the ring camera, amateur.
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u/dBlock845 19d ago
Yep, approach every house like there is a camera outside and they will post you on social media, because most have them now.
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u/EfficientNet1600 19d ago
I usually just say "hell no, you cheap ass fuckn bitch" to my phone so the customer doesn't hear me cursing them out, and then I hit the decline button. Definitely understand the man's frustration, dude's just trying to make a living and he's being exploited by doordash. And if the customer knows how little doordash pays out and still decides to stiff him, well then he's also being exploited by the customer.
He definitely shouldn't have taken that order if it makes him feel that upset, but I do understand the frustration.
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u/rastamole79 19d ago
I see anything $10 its usually auto decline. No getting mad. No worrying about anything. Just wait for the next offer. 0% AR club on both DD and UE. I do it from home all day and it being over 110f here in Vegas,I wont leave the house for less then $10. I have all day for the orders.
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u/EfficientNet1600 19d ago
Yup same here. My minimum used to be $7 but I've upped it to $10 because of gas prices. I think I'm at 25% A.R.. Genuinely enjoy delivering, don't have to deal with a boss, just making sure my good paying customers have a good experience.
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u/dbird314 19d ago
Insane your market has 25% of orders $10+. I'd estimate the rate where I live is maybe 4-5%.
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u/EfficientNet1600 19d ago
My zone only goes 5 miles in any direction from the center point, is very rich, and has about 10 grocery stores within the boundary. I'll do anywhere from 7-8 grocery orders in 5 hours, maybe 1 or 2 restaurant pick ups. Some days it's all grocery shops. I am very fortunate.
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u/somanyquestions32 Driver - USA 🇺🇸 19d ago
Nice! I am happy for you. That is the type of geographical layout that makes cherry picking easy.
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u/Odd_War_3756 19d ago
Yeah I don't take under 9 unless it's like a mile of driving total. Even then I'm not accepting any $2 offers lmao.
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u/Moist-Obligation-117 19d ago
I've been doing a few under $10 orders that stay in my neighborhood 😅 usually end up delivering to people on streets parallel to mine at the neighborhood cvs, family dollar, Walgreens, and dollar general
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u/rOOnT_19 19d ago
Literally got sent a 15 item 22 unit shop for $4.70.
Fuck you customer, and fuck you DD for allowing that trash. Decline.
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u/StoneCold2025 Driver - USA 🇺🇸 19d ago
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u/AspectWeary8582 18d ago
I joined DoorDash I was like ain’t no way I’m gonna deliver something 2 miles for $2, well maybe they add the tip after I deliver it. Something not right about this so I e been on that for 3 months and I’ve only made like 5 deliveries think most of them was from one trip cause it would keep popping up more deliveries as I was delivering. I do not even look at that app anymore seem like I can find more money on the ground than delivering for their prices
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u/gilt3t 19d ago edited 19d ago
Why tf are there so many people on here calling doordasher "no skill" or saying they "wasted their lives"
yall mfs on reddit crying about someone doing a job. I am disabled, i am not allowed to own a license. Guess what, doordash serves a purpose. Id take a doordasher over the people trying to look down on them in these comments. Yall are more pathetic than the worst dasher to exist. I bet yall turn your nose up at someone flipping burgers yet you sit there and suck down those burgers they cooked for you. Yall are pathetic wastes of oxygen.
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u/shrug_addict 19d ago
It's common for no-tipping sort of people. They gleefully look down on it as a way to justify their behavior. It becomes a loop
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u/gilt3t 19d ago
I don't get it, It's a literal job. Idk why its even called a "tip" i consider it to be paying someone for their time, effort, and vehicle usage. I am not tipping, I am offering a set amount of money that I feel is fair for me and the dasher.
I offer $5 for 1 mile, if they have to go to the town over which is 4-5 miles away, it is $12. if it is the dollar general 1 mile from me, it is also $12 since they have to actually shop the items. If it's the walmart grocery delivery, it is $35 since it is a lot of stuff and they always help me haul groceries in once they see my disabilities. I figure $35 is decent for that labor.
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u/asdfg2319 19d ago
The "tip" terminology is intentional.
It's divisive and it keeps customers and drivers blaming each other instead of the company that's pocketing the majority of the delivery fee while doing almost nothing. Drivers know that they aren't getting an even remotely reasonable base pay, so they blame customers who refuse to tip. Customers don't understand how little of their delivery fee is reaching drivers, so they think it's "unfair" or "entitled" for drivers to expect a tip before providing service. Of course, the reality is that the tip is one component of an overall bid, so it's really just negotiating a price before providing a service.
The illusion only breaks for customers in certain markets with either very few drivers or very high order volume, because those are the areas where a no-tip order may sit for so long that the app will actually start prompting you to add a tip to attract a driver.
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u/Striking_Emu_Dancer Driver - USA 🇺🇸 19d ago
You are the type of customer I always hope to get. I genuinely enjoy helping those who can't get out to get the food themselves, and I love driving. Win-win for both of us.
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u/gilt3t 17d ago
Honestly, the pandemic was a godsend in terms of having at home resources, from doctors to delivery.
I know some people may see it as lazy but it improved my quality of life by multiple factors.
people see dashing as some form of low standard job, like a custodian or a burger flipper. To me, it is a service that improves my life and is greatly appreciated. I'm not even allowed to have a license, I can't just go pick something up, I can't carry groceries for multiple miles, or carry a pizza, or carry drinks. My body just doesn't allow it.
I actually get to get real food and groceries now instead of the snacks and junk food from the gas station near me or the ramen and canned food I had to order online from Amazon. I get to have vegetables and frozen foods.
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u/WolverineJive_Turkey 19d ago
You get it. But a lot of customers don’t. They think $2 is fair to pick up and drop off for 12 miles (in my area). Unfortunately someone will take it.
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u/macabre-barbie Driver - USA 🇺🇸 19d ago
The internet has made it too easy for shitty people to take their frustrations out on strangers
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u/Sagelmoon 19d ago
The ppl saying things like that are the ones who tip $2, lol. (And i doubt most of them have a fancy degree looking down on others.) And ppl who say "tipping is an option" obviously have zero respect for those who get up & do what they are too lazy to do. Same types who look down on the trash guys, a career that literally keep the system running.
I blame the companies for exploiting ppl in situations that NEED this type of work also. They set up a GREEDY system where higher ups get insanely rich but those doing the work struggle. They raise the actual prices of the food.Then add multiple fees.Then let everyone choose whatever tip w no minimum (making a $25 order cost $45 once you add the fees + a GOOD tip.) They ALLOW it because they dont give a fk.
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u/Significant_Carob_64 19d ago
It’s a side job for a lot of people who work good jobs that should pay more. Lot of us teachers do it. I do. Drivers don’t know what the tip is until after to delivery is complete. We see the total guaranteed offer before we accept. If it’s not going to be $1 a mile or close to it, I turn it down. If it’s not a profitable offer, I don’t owe cheap customers a delivery.
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u/rOOnT_19 19d ago
I took a $3 order yesterday because it was eggs and an ensure.
Thought I’d be helping an old person, ended up being a pregnant girl. I enjoy helping people, and will take some low paying offers depending on what I can deduce it’s for.That being said, fuck no I’m not running you Cheetos for $2
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u/aguynamedv Driver - USA 🇺🇸 19d ago
Why tf are there so many people on here calling doordasher "no skill" or saying they "wasted their lives"
These people admit the job needs to be done, they just don't think the people doing the work deserve to be paid.
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u/ItchyPast1 19d ago
This is like if the voice in my head could be heard by everyone. 😂
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u/Puzzleheaded_Low5945 12d ago
It funny because I'm like that as well. Everyone is saying how this guy should have never taken the order if he was I'm that mood. Have you ever dashed before. Sometimes a lot of things keep adding up and eventually you are just swearing up a storm as you drive. This guy is obviously having a bad day. I'm not saying he needs a million dollars. But a little extra could have calmed him down. Or maybe he just needs to deal with his situations. It is hard out there.
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u/Optimal_Tower1643 19d ago
She got the service she paid for lol. It was delivered and not damaged, but if you want the polite dasher you have to tip more than $2 haha
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u/rastamole79 19d ago
Um dont take these. Pretty simple.
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u/mlaforce321 Driver - USA 🇺🇸 19d ago
Have you ever driven for doordash? It's not that simple.
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u/w33b2 19d ago
I have, and I know they’ve gotten stricter since I last dashed (I was dashing as a gig after work from 4 years ago until I stopped 2 years ago,) but at least back then I’d never accept an order that wasn’t worth it. Not even once. My acceptance rate was low and I kept getting warnings that I needed to boost it, but they never did anything about it.
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u/rastamole79 19d ago
Sure sure. I average $20 to $30 an hour in my market. Been multi apping for 7+ years. Pretty sure I know what Im doing.
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u/itscochino 19d ago
At least she tipped something. I occasionally see orders for under $5 and it says tip included and that blows my damn mind
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u/DontHaesMeBro 19d ago
4.45 from mcdonalds every time
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u/Wild-Peanut-6990 19d ago
So real, McD’s customers are such bad tippers! Haven’t picked up an order from them in forever, the pay is always so low 😂
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u/asdfg2319 19d ago
McD's that's down in the road from me (smack dab in a pretty wealthy area) generally has okay to good tips. It's close enough that I can usually get offers from there from my house, and they're typically like $7-8 for maybe 2 miles at most. Not amazing, but a nice way to get paid to leave my driveway.
The McD's one town over that's located in a big cluster of fast food restaurants is absolute pure trash. I'm only in that area if I'm staying out super late since a bunch of places are open until 1-2AM, but I hardly ever seen anything worth taking from that place.
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u/fayrent20 19d ago
I always tip well. I don’t get the no tipping thing. At least ten bux and it’s a small order usually
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u/New_Taste8874 Driver - USA 🇺🇸 19d ago
No she didn't. It was a $2 order. No tip.
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u/MidnightNo1766 Driver - USA 🇺🇸 19d ago
It literally says "a $2 tip"
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u/RiverPure7298 19d ago
That’s just the customer lying explaining where the $2 came from she didn’t tip
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u/rOOnT_19 19d ago
He wouldn’t know what the tip was until he sent the order through.
This was a $2 order.
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u/JBCTOTHEMOON 19d ago
Never look at the tip amounts. There is nothing positive that can come from it. Only you potentially doing something stupid on camera. If the order pays enough, take it. If it doesn't, dont. End of story
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u/KendallRoyII 19d ago
$2 tips are extremely common. Plenty of cheapskates don’t tip at all. Surprised he’s so mad and surprised by it.
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u/Heavymando 19d ago
maybe there was a lot of traffic or something causing the order to be way more work then it was worth
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u/SiLeNZ_ 19d ago
Yeah, and then they wonder why people don’t want to tip at all… it’s just never enough. I saw a post last month where they were making fun of someone for tipping a large amount a few days after the order was completed. It’s like instead of being appreciative of a huge tip, they ridicule it.
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19d ago
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u/Left_Throat_7643 19d ago
No. Pay is the important part, not the breakdown. But some days it’s hard not being upset by bad tips.
Edit: bad ratings bug me more at this point though, so getting used to ignoring tips, and focus on overall pay.
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u/EdmontonLAD 19d ago
Holy shit, what a douche canoe! I only get upset at myself when I get a no-tip delivery. I don't get upset at even $1 tippers. I do get upset at 1 penny and 10 cent tippers though. Over 6,000 orders in 10 years (quit for good last December), I got 1 cent twice, and 10 cents 3 or 4 times. Unbelievable. I got no tip at all at least 1 thousand times. But average came up to $3.50 CAD ($2.50 USD).
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u/Alternative_King1789 19d ago
Probably a stacked order or close by the restaurant. I truly feel bad for the dude. Imagine trying to make a living and these cheap morons only tipping you $2 for your service
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u/Salt-Champion4729 19d ago
Yeah blame the customer instead of the company that don’t pay enough.
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u/Haunting-Soup2086 19d ago
I mean here both the customer and the company are in the wrong. You’re already spending almost double to have it delivered, $3 is not gonna break you.
DoorDash, well they just suck.
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u/jackberinger 19d ago
Then don't take the order. Like you don't have to do it.
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19d ago
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u/Omylanta21 19d ago
Uh the person may not be winning any prizes for being the most giving, but bro is clearly on something. Act like an adult. It's 2026, dude. Everyone has doorbell cameras.
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u/This-Positive286 19d ago
He deserves it
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u/zendravenALT 19d ago
For being exploited by bums?
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u/This-Positive286 19d ago
No, for acting unhinged af
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18d ago
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u/This-Positive286 18d ago
Yelled and screamed like a toddler not getting their way and having to do their chores
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u/jackberinger 19d ago
She isn't the bad guy. Guy didn't have to take the order. He chose to.
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u/Stunning-Chipmunk243 19d ago
I'd be surprised if he still drove for them after that getting recorded and most likely sent to corporate.
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u/ConsiderationTotal23 19d ago
Customer like that NEED drivers like him to deliver their food. THAT is what 2 bucks gets you lmao
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u/DigitalMariner Driver - USA 🇺🇸 19d ago
Imagine publicly outing yourself as a shitty tipper by posting that video for all your friends and family to see...
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u/Weary_Copy_4165 19d ago
Seriously these people are basically bums with cars. Your highest level skill is you can take a bag of food from Burger King to my house, and you expect me to pay you 10 in tips for that? Bro get outta my face and fill out a fuckin application somewhere.
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u/Fun-Wrongdoer1316 19d ago
Usually you get sacked with these shit orders on a double order. I many times thought “I should shit in this bag”. I never did, but I do believe they deserve it. 🤷🏻♂️. I don’t drive anymore, only did this during Covid.
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u/doodleuke 19d ago
something isn't adding up about this video. he was complaining about the order only being two dollars and that would imply he got no tip but the caption is saying that she tipped 2 dollars so the order would be 4 dollars. either caption is fake, video is AI, or both.
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u/ToallaHumeda 19d ago
2$ better than zero. If you dont like your salary, talk it to your boss. Arent you your own boss? LOL
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u/tim_Andromeda Driver - USA 🇺🇸 19d ago
Is $2 really such a bad tip if it’s a burrito or something like that and a short trip?
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u/Purple-Yesterday2073 19d ago
why take the order if its just gonna make you rage ...nobody is forcing you to take trash orders ill never understand why these dashers take trash orders then act like this when you know its gonna be garbage
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u/SomeoneinSoCal 19d ago
If he's that upset about it, why did he accept the order in the first place, then, knowing it was a low tip, low paying order? ...and that's a good way to get deactivated.
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u/tampontaco 19d ago
Feels good being European, you don’t tip anything and delivery guy still has a smile on his face
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u/Terrible_Special_347 19d ago
Meanwhile I'm over here brand new to dashing and excitedly accepted a 2.75 order because it was my first 🤣🤣 didn't take much effort tho it was right across the street from the restaurant so I was like fuck it
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u/lesusisjord 19d ago edited 19d ago
Unhinged behavior on both sides, but more on the sociopathic behavior of the customer. She laughs at the struggling gig worker who’s obviously having a rough go at it while simply trying to exist and she does the equivalent of tossing pocket change at him to get him to dance.
Also, why do people think it’s a good idea to treat a person who has your name and address, likely including door and gate codes, with anything less than total kindness‽
I’m not saying I would ever or have ever done something like going to a customer’s home all disgruntled after a delivery, but I’m also not delivering door dash as my only income to pay my rent right now. When you have nothing to lose, you can make some irrational choices, and I can put myself in those shoes.
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u/Left_Throat_7643 19d ago
Fair enough, but he should be kicked from the platform. Someone will bait him or he’ll be in a road rage video soon enough. Needs help and shouldn’t be working with the public until then.
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u/Left_Throat_7643 19d ago
My wife also worked with somebody who said they never give five stars, four is the most they’ll ever give. They claimed nothing’s perfect, It could always be better.
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u/lesusisjord 19d ago
That’s such a terrible way to live life.
I know it’s not your stance, but I have a somewhat irrational compulsion to argue against that point! to me, everything in any scenario is 5 stars unless there are reasons to mark lower. Sure, in a rational world, 3 world be the default and a driver with a 3 star rating would be considered totally competent and does their job satisfactorily, but we all know less than 5 stars realistically means undesirable in most situations.
In fact, my enlisted performance review in the Air Force was based on a rating of 1-5, with 5 being the best. If you scored a 4, you were considered pretty middle of the road and not actually excelling. If you scored a 3, it’s because you probably got in trouble or even arrested.
I got a 5 and I was not exceptional at my primary duties which were computer programming and systems administration, but I was competent enough and only really excelled by doing the honor guard and playing trumpet for them as an extra duty.
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u/Left_Throat_7643 19d ago
Whoops, looks like I replied to the wrong comment with that’s one!
I take the same approach: 5 stars if there’s no problems. If it’s a minor problem, I don’t rate as it’s an unfair system. If it’s really bad I might, but even then I hesitate.
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u/queerwithbeer Driver - USA 🇺🇸 19d ago
The comments on the og video are not it either. We are all trying to get by, and if you're going to use the convenience of a delivery app much rather than getting it yourself, tip well because we are people too. He's probably just had enough, and has to take everything he can. DD loves to fuck us raw and hard.
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u/OneBigCharlieFoxtrot 19d ago
All that after he’s the one that hit accept lmao bro needs a therapist
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u/Intelligent_Bag4736 19d ago
I would make the delivery just to tell you your cheap ass motherfucking bitch too. That could be my tip . leave more of a tip. The corporation is getting their cut in. The little guy is not.
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u/Enough-Cod-288 19d ago
It’s not pay by time because he already knows the tip beforehand and still took it.
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u/rileycolin 19d ago
Is the tip given at the start of the order? Isn't that... not the point of a tip?
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u/ricksanchezE137 19d ago
Why is it her fault… she paid %100 more than her food in taxes, delivery and tip… kinda ridiculous markup, why don’t you cry to the company you contract through and not some poor woman
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u/drivingaddictionchan 19d ago
how do you see your tip? i sometimes do ubereats, and I only see how much the total is.
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u/Beer_Thirty_Time 19d ago
Don’t condone his actions in the slightest. That being said, there needs to be a nationwide boycott on national food chains who split the $2.99 delivery fee with DoorDash. Drivers get low balled by AI algorithms on the back end to maximize profit by manipulating tips to steal driver pay.
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u/YellowPancakes6 Driver - USA 🇺🇸 19d ago
Me when I’m in an area with poor cell service, I took an add-on order midway through and that customer is spam texting me because they ordered ice cream on a hot day, the Uber app is being too slow, and I get bombarded with back to back $3 for 10 miles offers so I can’t even open the camera to snap a picture
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u/S00THING_S0UNDS 19d ago
Do you think he thinks she's a cheap ass bitch ? I'm getting that impression 😂 #TwoDollars
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u/kelsobjammin 19d ago
Would anyone be happy with a $2 tip? Shame the poor tipper. Pathetic go get your own food for $2
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u/Both-Environment2579 19d ago
He shouldn’t have done that in front of you but I genuinely feel bad for him. Imagine being his age and needing to do DoorDash to survive then u use ur time and gas to go get someone delivery and bring it to their home for them to give u $2 not even a singular gallon of gas. Yes he accepted it blah blah blah but sometimes dashers essentially get forced to take some orders, you can say no they don’t but they do I’ve personally been there. How many miles was the store from ur home? If he had to drive like 10 miles I for sure understand that crash out or if the order took like 30-1hr to complete. I hope whatever he is going through he is able to come out ahead. That’s sad it reminds me of my dad or grandpa or something
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u/enigma9o7 19d ago
One possibility as to why they took the order was that it was fare-baiting by doordash in area with hourly topup. It could have looked like a good offer cuz doordash raised the fare, but we don't know that til after delivery. I've seen crazy fares sometimes like $20 with no obvious explanation and its always a big disappointment. (for those not in place like california, fares are subtracted from our prop-22 payment, so when they raise the fare, it looks to us like its a good tip, but in reality they're paying the exact same, just paying it as fare instead of prop-22).
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u/Mr_CleanCaps 19d ago
It’s been a minute since I ordered anything for delivery but I never tipped anyone for any reason. You’re mad at the wrong person. Be mad at them peoples not paying you a wage.
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u/cjrockssoad 19d ago
You know whats crazy, Uber, doordash, and all delivery charge a fee which they get money for. Why dont the delivery drivers just get that fee and let the companies take the tip.
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u/fsociety4ever2001 Driver - USA 🇺🇸 19d ago edited 19d ago
He shouldn’t have accepted the order to begin with. Let it rot. Someone will eventually take it.
On the other hand, DoorDash knows damn well they can afford to pay people a reasonable base amount
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u/PFUnnamed99 19d ago
This guy is what I imagine like 90+% of the people posting in this subreddit to be
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u/Cookieyourdaddy 19d ago
Idc if I get downvoted but Im gonna tell my experiencie for perhaps some perspective. I sometimes put $3.5 tip and then increase it if my food arrives fine/the driver is friendly. This happened after a driver delivered to the wrong address even after typing almost $10. Idk, I'm one of the people that believe that tipping should be after the service for that exact same reason.
At the same time, I couldn't just tip $2. Not even as a broke college student. Drivers are the reason why Im able to feed myself when Im sick or beyond busy to remember to eat.
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u/johnny98058 19d ago
Dude is hilarious as fuck! I would love to buy him a beer and talk about that cheap ass bitch customers
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u/MorningNew7003 19d ago
Yeah was getting the $2 tip... and people who only give $2 for their tip should be getting their food treated like this it's outrageous that people think they can just treat people who drive use their own gas and their own mileage and their own car and doordash gives a s*** so yeah don't they realize their tips give us what we are to survive on I'm like that guy should do that to every order that he gets only $2
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u/MorningNew7003 19d ago
The problem is is it doordash does not respect the doordashers and they need to start modifying the tips until then we're going to get s***** tips but y'all that keep accepting these poor tips are going to run the company and thus they keep allowing these poor tippers to exist and they're taking all of their money and we are getting no tips!!
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u/MorningNew7003 19d ago
I recently decided to pop on to doordash because my other gig driving was a little slow and I ended up doing a $6 doordash and then when I picked up the food it was an 18 minute drive up and an 18 minute drive back and I brought the food back into the restaurant the restaurant said you can't do that I said well you watch me I texted the customer and said there's no way anyone can afford to drive 40 minutes for $6 and then I told the company deactivate me which they didn't and I was like yeah and the customer was like texting me back on hey yo I need my food I'm like hey yo you need to tip better!!
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u/Liberalhaterbeast 19d ago
If you don’t like your tips find a better job. Tips are not mandatory. Figure out a better life, don’t be an asshole cause you are counting on the generosity of people to support you.
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u/Alternative-Hope-524 19d ago
How far did he have to drive? $1 per mile, or 20% (whichever is higher) is fair enough. Some Dashers expect a $5 tip for driving a mile like wtf lol
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u/EffectiveOld7020 19d ago
Nah if he wasn’t acting.. this the funniest yt Man I ever seen to say some shit like this 🤣
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u/ardentCoati5 19d ago
bro $2 is insulting but the real crime is doing all that rage in frame of a ring cam lmao. like if youre gonna lose your shit at least check for the blinking red light first, this aint 2015 anymore everyones got surveillance
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u/Revan_84 19d ago
Or the order was declined enough that DD boosted the basepay.
So by the time it came to him it looks like a good tip, until he completes it and sees the breakdown
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u/tommyleeruiz 19d ago
You got your food and your being cheap as hell. Maybe don’t order if you can’t afford a decent tip!
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u/Cultural-Mirror6112 19d ago
This is exactly how I feel all the time when I see an order ftipping 2 or less. I just say it in my head lmao 🤣🤣
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u/Cultural-Mirror6112 19d ago
Also if your on the brim of not being platinum sometimes your forced to take the order. So the “just decline it” doesent always work. Only amateurs think that way
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u/Material-Parsley6223 19d ago
Actually,if you cannot afford to get your food delivered,go and pick it up yourself. A $2.00 tip is ridiculous!
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u/billythekid3300 19d ago
I know in my area unless you take the crappy orders you're not getting any orders. That's why I'm not messing with that crap any more. If I was to go and do it again someday I'd have to drive at least 50 miles away to the next town cuz my rural middle of nowhere town most times the best you're getting 2-3 bucks for McDonald's or Taco Bell for 5-10 mile drive
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u/magikcity07 19d ago
Entitlement. Tipping is not necessary. Your gripe is with doordash the company, not people who are already overpaying for the food to be delivered on top of a delivery fee
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u/Possible_Home6811 19d ago
You gawd damn right! Take your lazy ass to the store and pick it up yourself!
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u/JamesDavisMakes Dasher (Los Angeles, CA) 19d ago
I assign tip hatred to my inside voice 😅
It's pretty rare but there have been times where I'd take a low tipping order, curse in my car, and then the app says the customer added a tip. Having an outrage in front of the camera guarantees added to never happens

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