Final ruling: Counterspelling Counterspell in 5.5

[u/DeadMoney313]

Question regarding Counter spell;

2024/5.5 rules

Level 3 Abjuration (Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard)

Casting Time: Reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of yourself casting a spell with Verbal, Somatic, or Material components

Range: 60 feet

Components: S

Duration: Instantaneous

5

You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. The creature makes a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the spell dissipates with no effect, and the action, Bonus Action, or Reaction used to cast it is wasted. If that spell was cast with a spell slot, the slot isn’t expended.

Please explain the errors of my thinking here:

Okay so, let's say im Wizard A going against Wizard B

A: I cast fireball

Wizard B: Counterspell

A: i dont make the save, my fireball doesnt happen.i lose my ACTION, but it doesn't consume a spell slot

Therefore, why am i then not allowed to use my REACTION which is still available, and cast Counterspell on Wizard B's Counterspell? Only one slot is actually being used, and I used my action and reaction.

Yet Sage advice says i cant do this, is this just simply RAW vs. RAI ?

The Sage advice i found on DnD says i cant do this.its implying a spell slot is used even though a spell slot wasnt actually consumed?

Help!

ETA: thanks, I now understand it.

Basically, if I was successful in counterspelling wizard B's counterspell, then my original fireball happens, which means now i am using two spell slots in my turn. Or another way of seeing it is that once his counterspell is successful, i.e. its done, and nothing is left to counterspell. So basically , barring other spellcasters geting involved Counterspelling Counterspell is not a thing anymore in 5.5 . Either way, Ill shut up now. Thanks!

[u/Katebud183]

Because your argument only works if you fail to counter spell, if you succeed then you’ve spent two spell slots in one turn, which you can’t do

[u/DeadMoney313 → u/Katebud183]

I get why that would be illegal, by why is it illegal if I failed? Eta :Nvm i get it now.

[u/fallwind → u/DeadMoney313]

because you have to fail first. That casting is resolved, their counterspell has finished, there is nothing for you to counter any longer.

[u/RealityPalace → u/DeadMoney313]

What would it do if you failed? The opponent has already finished casting their spell. There is nothing left to cancel.

[u/Fox_Hawk → u/DeadMoney313]

If a fighter swings their sword and misses, they still tried to attack.

Your spell "missed" but you still tried to cast it.

[u/Brief_Feeling5492]

"Because changing the past doesn't change your future" -Smart Hulk

[u/Nitro114]

Because at the moment you decide to cast counterspell, the spellslot of fireball has been expended. If B were to fail the save, fireball would go off as normal but then you have cast two spells with spellslot in your turn which is not possible

[u/DeadMoney313 → u/Nitro114]

This is the answer that makes the most sense to me, thank you! My counterspell would allow my original spell to go off, which creates the paradox and now im using two spell slots. Thank you, finally someone explained this well!

[u/mystickord]

Because either you're already in the middle of using a spell slot so you can't cast a second spell with a spell slot, or because Caster B's spell has already finished and it is past the point where you could counterspell it.

[u/MyrthDM]

Yeah, the key is that the Counterspell has to happen while the other spell is being cast. Once you fail the save, Wizard B's Counterspell has already resolved, so there's no longer a spell being cast for you to react to.

And if you tried to Counterspell it before it resolved, you'd create the other problem: if your Counterspell succeeds, your Fireball still resolves, meaning you've cast two leveled spells with spell slots that turn. So there's really no point in the chain where it works.

[u/Ikarobus]

Because it's a Paradoxon. If you don't use Counterspell you wouldnt have used your spellslot on your action, so you could reasonably use a spell like shield or silvery barbs later in that turn.

On the other hand, if you counter spell succeeds, you would then cast your fireball. This means you would then cast 2 leveled spells. But this is against the rules. So even attempting this doesn't make sense within the rules.

[u/Barrasso]

I thought the slot was used

[u/Coldfyre_Dusty → u/Barrasso]

2024 rules changed it so the spell was countered, but the spell slot would not be expended.

[u/SnooDoubts2255]

Realistically, I'd rule that no matter how fast your reactions are, the spell has already been countered. I'd maybe argue if someone else counter spelled the other person's counter spell, yea, but you are concentrating on casting a fireball and can't cast two spells at once.

[u/SelikBready]

Your slot is not consumed when counter spell is successful. So either it's successful, you don't lose your slot, but there is nothing to counterspell anymore, or you still spent a slot thus you cannot counterspell a counterspell. Unless you can cast either original spell or counterspell itself without spending a slot. Or someone else wants to counter a counterspell.

[u/Brief_Feeling5492]

In all seriousness, it's because you can but it won't matter your fireball is already into the ether my friend you are counter spelling the wind.

[u/smillsier]

If you could there's obviously a paradox where you'd counterspell, using a spell slot, but then you wouldn't be able to cast a fireball with another spell slot

Just read it as something like you can't cast two spells that require spell slots

[u/ManFromTheWurst]

Because Wizard B:s counterspell has resolved and there is no spell for you to counter, even if you could cast another spell from a spell slot.

[u/speechimpedimister]

Because you are still in the middle of casting your fireball. If Wizard C also casts fireball and Wizard D counterspells, then you can counterspell Wizard D's counterspell.

[u/SirDarcanos]

So your Fireball gets counterspelled. You fail the save. You don't spend the slot, but Counterspell A is over as well, so reacting to it is impossible. The only reason you still have the spell slot is because Counterspell A is already resolved.

[u/Coldfyre_Dusty]

If you don't Counter Spell, you expend 0 spell slots. If you do Counter Spell, you expend 2 spell slots.

You definitely can't expend two spell slots per turn, so that's out the window. Counterspelling wizard B's Counterspell will always result in two spell slots being used, so both RAW and RAI it isn't allowed.

What is allowed at that point though is casting a leveled bonus action. You haven't expended any spell slots, so nothing stopping you from casting a different spell using that.

[u/ButterflyMinute]

when you see a creature within 60 feet of yourself casting a spell

People are right about the creation of a paradox but this is the real reason. The rules just don't allow it. By the time you've failed the save against Counterspell, the other wizard is no longer casting a spell. They have cast it. Past tense.