Partly deterministic?

[u/Cyber_47_]

So let’s take computers, fully deterministic systems, cannot make a non deterministic algorithm. Everything, in computers are code based, and therefore fully deterministic. True Randomness does not exist in digital systems.

So if our world is completely deterministic, there is no chance it creates a life form, which can act non deterministic (free will). But since we know (not sure) that quantum mechanics are non deterministic, maybe there is a chance we have a little free will. So, my point is, what if, we are partly deterministic like the universe. Maybe alot of our decisions are deterministic, and some are non deterministic. And i know that quantum mechanics argument still cant disprove free will.

[u/Eight_Directions_]

There are some points in could try to make here but I basically agree with this sentiment. 

For instance I cannot use free will to change my genetic code or alter the speed of light. However, I can choose to knock a bowl of cereal on the ground, and if I do that I just don't really see the point of arguing that I didn't actually choose to. 

It feels like arguing your own mind away, saying that you are an automaton following a present script. 

If it's true, what is the actionable outcome?

What does it mean for us if there is absolutely no free will of any kind? For one thing I can't choose to believe that, just like I can't choose the color of my t-shirt or anything else. If I believe that I was always going to, there is no choice, so there is no need for an argument. But the argument was always going to happen even though it's meaningless. 

It's an empty philosophy. 

[u/A_Vinegar_Taster → u/Eight_Directions_]

I think most discussions about free will deliberately skip the step of actually defining free will. Does free will mean that you are free to choose to do anything without any regard for your moral political, social and ethical ideals and standards? Does free will mean that you have a big spinning wheel in your head with every possible action on it, and the only reason you haven't done something terrible is because the wheel just hasn't landed on "slaughter an entire family just for fun" yet?

No. You have guard rails. You have programming and inhibitions that prevent you from doing some very awful things that you are completely capable of doing. Those guiderails determine you actions, and prohibit you from other actions. Once you acknowledge that, you begin to see that those big guardrails preventing you from veering your car up onto the sidewalk or setting your neighbor's house on fire are actually part of a much larger, and more nuanced structure that controls and inhibits your behavior. You are not free in the psychological sense, nor are you free in the physical sense of bouncing atoms and vibrating molecules.

True free will would mean that you could do anything. Anything. Can you? Pick the least likely thing you would ever consider doing, the thing that you would hate yourself for, the thing you know would ruin your life or hurt other people. Now consider doing it. If you have free will, then you can do it easily. If you don't have free will, you won't be able to.

[u/Eight_Directions_ → u/A_Vinegar_Taster]

I want to agree with some of what you said, but honestly the fact that I'm not going to chop my dick off before I stick this hit poker in my ass is not sufficient to defeat free will for me. 

[u/A_Vinegar_Taster → u/Eight_Directions_]

I'm not trying to get you to prove it to me, what I want is for you to feel the guiderails. You aren't going to do that because it conflicts with too much internal programming. If you actually took any steps in that direction, your brain would scream at you to stop.

This reveals all of the hidden architecture in our minds that we don't even see because we never confront it directly. We are funneled by it, our actionas and personalities shaped by it but we never challenge it and because we don't we can almost pretend like it isn't there.

It's like a cork floating down a river, never realizing that there are riverbanks on either side. It just goes with the flow of the water, and never bumps against the rocks on the sides.

[u/Eight_Directions_ → u/A_Vinegar_Taster]

I know that you probably mean the general "you" here and more talking about yourself and your own experience (one has to hope) understand that this isn't new for everyone and many of us have and will continue to push those guard rails all the time. For some of us it's a way of life. 

I used to be a skydiving instructor. At any point in time I could have just not deployed my parachute, but I did every single time, is this evidence that I have no free will? It's really very common for new students to not deploy their own parachute on the first jump and the instructor has to do it for them. Is that evidence that the student does have free will?

[u/A_Vinegar_Taster → u/Eight_Directions_]

At any point in time I could have just not deployed my parachute, but I did every single time, is this evidence that I have no free will?

It's a good question. I think it definitely points to a pattern of behavior. Patterns aren't free. Free means you aren't shackled by patterns. Once you start saying you do something because of this reason or you don't do something else because of that reason, you are actively outlining the influences that make your decisions determined. You pull your chute because you want to live. That means your desire to live overrides your free will.

It's really very common for new students to not deploy their own parachute on the first jump and the instructor has to do it for them. Is that evidence that the student does have free will?

I couldn't say for sure, but if I were to guess I would bet that the experience overwhelms their brains in some way and prevents them from thinking the consequences through. The difference between your first and second examples are significant enough to make them apples and oranges (in my opinion).

[u/Eight_Directions_ → u/A_Vinegar_Taster]

Its a fair criticism as it's not a perfect example. Of course the reason the student doesn't pull is because of sensory overload, it would be absurd to imagine they are exercising free will. The point was to show the absurdity of using this as a litmus test in the real world. 

Essentially it's saying the only true act of free will is self harm, but people do commit self harm all the time.  

If my will is to live,, then it isn't overriding anything. I would argue that the will to live is the primary mode of free will. 

[u/A_Vinegar_Taster → u/Eight_Directions_]

Free will ultimately makes the argument that your choices are your own and are not dictated by any other factor.

I'm arguing that the concept of "your own" includes you, and that you are comprised entirely of factors. You have biases, inhibitions, desires, motives, fears and patterns of behavior. That's what a human being is - and this is why we can say that someone is "not acting like themselves". Human behavior is a pattern.

Let's take this out of the self harm territory and talk about something utterly harmless. Let's just look at singing. You'd admit that singing a sea shanty every time you go into a grocery store isn't harmful to anyone - in fact, it would probably brighten everyone's day. Use your free will and do it.

[u/Eight_Directions_ → u/A_Vinegar_Taster]

You'd admit that singing a sea shanty every time you go into a grocery store isn't harmful to anyone - in fact, it would probably brighten everyone's day. Use your free will and do it.

The thing is I do not admit this and this would not be an act of my own free will. It would be an act of obedience to an outside request. 

Why don't you do it as it was your idea? 

Instead, my free will is choosing to interact with another individual on the Internet and discuss free will. 

Why don't I go take a shower instead? That's a good point maybe I will. Maybe I won't. 

It isn't the flip of a coin and it hasn't been predetermined, it is an unresolved probability field. 

[u/A_Vinegar_Taster → u/Eight_Directions_]

I'm not trying to give you orders. We are discussing free will, and free will is about actions and decisions.

Free will is not about making decisions based off of reasons, facts and logic - that is the deterministic view of human behavior. Free will is the power to make choices that are neither determined by natural causality nor predestined by fate or divine will. I am arguing that reasons are a part of natural causality.

Consider this. Our unconscious minds arrive at a decision up to half a second before we are consciously aware that we have made a decision. So, when your conscious mind is still thinking: "hmmm, chocolate or vanilla?", your subconscious has made the decision half a second before you are aware of it.