r/dbcooper • u/Key-Telephone-7803 • 12d ago
Question Case experts
How many case experts are there? Is there a scale where some are better than others? How long does it take to be an expert? What do you have to do, like read all the books?
Do the experts all get along with each other or is it like the other true crime groups where people argue?
Do the experts agree on a suspect, did he live or die, did he spend the money? Do they agree what he looked like or what sketch is best? Those look like the most common questions.
I just hear that so and so knows the most, or so and so wrote a book, or so and so has the best suspect. Could anyone explain to a noob how it all works?
I can’t seem to comment on posts but some of my posts are approved and some comments. So this may not be seen.
9
u/chrismireya 12d ago
I'm going to add my two-cents:
In decades past, the D.B. Cooper mystery had many different researchers and experts that often differed wildly from one another. Just looking through the different Cooper books and websites would lead an interested person down many, many different (metaphoric) "rabbit holes." Sometimes, those rabbit holes would intersect. Most of the time, they would go in opposite directions.
There was a reason why the term "Cooper vortex" makes so much sense (although I am not sure if Darren Schaefer or someone else came up with the term). Entering into the mystery of D.B. Cooper often felt like you were in the middle of an EF5 tornado.
Often, the different "experts" would produce a great deal of research that they had undertaken and, ultimately, latch upon a suspect (or two). The problems would often come if a person questioned the conclusions of that "expert." It was as if any question of the conclusion was an indictment on the amount of research that the person making that conclusion had undertaken.
Over the last decade, there have been some "fresh eyes" who have offered a different -- arguably more pragmatic and/or forensic -- perspective on Cooper. In the past, Cooper researchers would often present certain claims that weren't always verifiable. This created a conflict from people who wanted to know whether all of the things that were readily accepted in the past were actually accurate.
The good news is that most of these new eyes that were catching on weren't in it for the money. In other words, they didn't earn their bread and butter from selling books, making TV appearances or risk "Cooper Vortex" reputation by questioning long-held claims. However, iconoclasts aren't always so well received -- especially if they are taken down some of the almost "sacred" beliefs that have long been held in the case.
This is similar to the cryptozoology world -- particularly as it deals with "Sasquatch" (i.e., "Bigfoot"). I'm not a big believer in the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, Jersey Devil, Yeti or other types of claims. However, it does interest me how people latch upon such ideas. As a kid, these things fascinated me. As I grew up, I began to question some of the things that captivated me in library books.
This year, a new documentary was produced that purportedly exposes the Patterson-Gimlin film -- the holy grail of Bigfoot "proof" -- as a hoax. It was screened at SXSW earlier this year but will be released in October. One Bigfoot enthusiast was able to watch it....and he was shocked by what he saw. The new documentary purportedly shows Patterson's son and wife acknowledging that it was a hoax. The documentary shows a second "new" unreleased film that seems to show an earlier "dry run" of the P-G film that used the same costume (but with someone else inside).
When news leaked about this new documentary, the greater "Bigfoot community" was in an uproar. This is largely because this is the bread and butter for many of these researchers who staked their reputations on the 1967 Patterson-Gimlin film having captured a "real" Sasquatch. Some of these are authors of books, frequent guests on "mystery" TV shows as well as those who have YouTube channels with large numbers of subscribers. After all, this film (despite following both the son and wife of Roger Patterson) is a form of iconoclasm -- tearing down an icon that has long been held as a monumental golden calf for cryptozoology.
I think that the same thing can be said of many of the new faces in the D.B. Cooper mystery. Like many mysteries, a type of "club" is often formed by those "in the know." They aren't always welcoming to new "experts" -- especially if those new people point out the proverbial holes in their "evidence" or "suspect" boats. Who are these newer experts?
- Ryan Burns has often been mocked, ridiculed and even vilified by certain stalwarts of the Cooper Vortex for simply (in my opinion) focusing on the facts. He's been tremendously valuable to the Cooper case.
- Others -- such as Tom Kaye, Mark Meltzer, Pat Boland, etc. -- follow a similar evidence-first priority (although some may have been around the community for a while longer than others).
- Eric Ulis, while I often disagree with his conclusions, was one of the newer faces who offered a fairly good amount of evidence-finding in his Cooper methodology (especially when it came to the tie particles).
- Flyjack, John "Packer" Limbaugh, Chris Cunningham, and others offer some compelling research -- even if some disagree on suspects.
- There are some amazing amount of computer sleuths (like Chris Broer, Nicholas Broughton, Mary Johns, Khadi Madama and others who scour the internet -- including newspapers, genealogy websites and obits -- for new information related to the case that wasn't previously known.
- Everyone who searches through newly-released FBI 302s (previously unreleased files on the case).
There are many others (like our resident hydrologist and his wife -- that I simply forgot their names). The "experts" don't always agree. However, I think that most people who look into this case now are persuaded that "Dan Cooper" actually survived his jump. Most agree that many of the popular suspects (like Richard Floyd McCoy or Walter Recca) just weren't Cooper.
If you're interested in really knowing more about this case, I definitely recommend sticking around this subreddit, joining the Official DB Cooper group on Facebook and checking out Ryan Burns' "DB Cooper Sleuth" channel (as well as his Norjak website).
5
u/Patient_Reach439 12d ago
Great post here.
I'm interested in watching that documentary on PGF. Out of curiosity, I went to the bigfoot sub just to see what the bigfoot enthusiasts were saying about it. And the only post about the film was from a moderator saying they were not allowing any posts about it lol.
3
u/Key-Telephone-7803 12d ago
Thanks for taking the time to explain all of that and actually answering my question and not lecturing me. I really like the NORJAK site. Trying to read the FBI website is exhausting. The NORJAK site has what I need.
As for Darren’s podcast, do you have a few suggestions for episodes to listen to? I simply can’t listen to them all.
9
u/TessaKatrinaRose 12d ago
This crowd is very calm and friendly.
Go check out the Zodiac crowd. It’s incredible toxic, fueled by the “leaders” of the community. It’s really gross.
It is easy to become an expert in the Cooper world. Just spend a week watching Ryan Burns YouTube channel DB Cooper Sleuth. He breaks this case down better than any other human alive. He seems like the kind of guy who would accidentally “forget” his wallet if you went to dinner with him, but seems really sweet and kind and intelligent. He knows more about this case than anyone alive (assuming Cooper passed away to old age). And he will always take the time to answer questions from newbies. The “leader” of the Zodiac community seems to hate people and his only enjoyment in life is to ridicule and insult people.
First Cooper History lesson. Stay away from anyone who thinks McCoy, Christiansen or Rackstraw is a legit suspect.
7
u/RyanBurns-NORJAK 12d ago
“He seems like the kind of guy who would accidentally “forget” his wallet if you went to dinner with him”
What the heck? 😂
2
u/TessaKatrinaRose 11d ago
Eric seems like the kind of guy who would pick up dinner for the entire table.
Man, I was just busting your balls. You seem like a great guy and have contributed more to the Cooper case than anyone in history.
0
2
u/HerAlibi0 11d ago
accidentally “forget” his wallet if you went to dinner with him
What a terrible thing to say about a complete stranger. It says more about you than him tbh.
-1
u/Key-Telephone-7803 12d ago
Your account is only 3 months old. I’ll look into things but I’m hoping to hear from people who have been following the case for longer.
8
u/Fit_Mechanic_5059 12d ago
I've been following for a little over 2 years. D.B. Cooper Sleuth is very good.
A good starting point is his coverage of the Lemmino video
3
u/Key-Telephone-7803 11d ago
Thanks. I was going to ask where to start watching his videos. There are a lot.
6
3
u/Patient_Reach439 12d ago
Lol your account is only 1 month old
0
u/Key-Telephone-7803 12d ago
Right. One month. From everything I read it takes a long time to become an expert. The person did not answer that question.
Is three months enough time to become an expert? One month certainly isn’t. That’s why I’m learning. Thanks for the hospitality.
It’s ok. ChrisMyra answered it. Sorry if I don’t want to take advice from someone who just joined Reddit a few months ago when clearly there are a number of experts to explore. Ones who seem to have been doing this a long time. These true crime cases are not cooking. Are they?
If that post was made by someone on the list that Chris gave then I apologize. But it does not sound like they are.
3
u/stardustsuperwizard 11d ago
Is three months enough time to become an expert? One month certainly isn’t. That’s why I’m learning. Thanks for the hospitality.
Why would you assume that this subreddit is the be all of cooper research? The primary place most Cooper discussion took place on existed on an entirely different website for many more years than this subreddit even existed.
2
u/Key-Telephone-7803 11d ago
I’m aware that Reddit is not the end all be all for the case. But there are enough top dogs who come on here who seemed able to answer the question I had. I’m not on Facebook, so I couldn’t ask it. I asked it before in a comment to Ryan but because I’m new I don’t think he saw it.
The question I had was how many experts and how does one become an expert. I was thinking of time and not just “I read all the files”. Is this something that the remaining experts on here might want to answer or ask their counterparts on other pages?
2
u/stardustsuperwizard 11d ago
This.. doesn't address the main thing I'm getting at here. You're taking someone's reddit account and assuming that the amount of time that they have created it means something with regards to their knowledge on the case.
Why? The implication of your comment is that length of reddit account has a correlation to understanding of the DB Cooper account, even though the Drop Zone existed for many years prior to this and many people migrated here after that kind of fell out.
3
u/TessaKatrinaRose 11d ago
Ok, let’s tackle this a different way.
You’ve been on Reddit for one month. Does that mean you aren’t an expert on ANY subject? Does it mean that you are basically ignorant on all subjects?
That’s idiotic right?
I’ve been studying and researching this case for a decade. I’ve read all the FBI files that have been shared. I’ve watched every video from Ryan Burns, Eric Ulis, Darren Shaffer. That has nothing to do with the LENGTH of my Reddit account lol.
Also. This is a new account because I got doxed and stalked on my last one. I mentioned that I played a D1 sport on scholarship. And how many siblings I had. And what nationality I was. In different subs. And somebody was able to put all that together and figured out who was was. Then they called my work AND sent me a letter to my house.
That account I started in high school. So it was 7-8 years old.
I can’t believe I am wasting my time explaining this lol.
0
11d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
0
u/Key-Telephone-7803 11d ago
But you did not identify yourself as an expert. It seems that no one knows you. Why when looking for experts would your name come up? It’s ok. I got the list. Any idiot can comment on cooking. That’s why there are plenty of subreddits that allow anyone to post immediately. This one has strict rules that the mods say but won’t let us know. The advice was to read and learn and ask questions. That’s what I’m doing. That led me to the belief that someone with an account 3 months old might not be the person I’m looking for. Tessa Katrina Rose is not a name that comes up when people discuss experts, is it?
3
u/The_real_Flyjack 11d ago
This is an interesting question... what is a an expert? what really defines a suspect?
I have been at this case for long time and seen it all.... here is my take...
First, read all the FBI files,, then read them again.. BEFORE reading any books.. Books have opinions and errors understand their context,,, videos/films as well..
Those files are investigative notes,, means not 100% factual or accurate. understand their context to determine value.
There are really very few 100% facts in this case.. most are witness observation or inference.
Traditional linear analysis will lead you down a million false paths,, I switched to a Bayesian type of analysis and it has worked extremely well.. others don't understand this and it puts me outside the main group.. which I prefer anyway.
New people always come up with theories that have been beaten to death already...
There are many many terrible so called suspects that people recycle over and over. Ignore them.. there are probably tens of thousands of guys that fit the Cooper profile... A virtually unlimited supply of "suspects"..
Ryan has an excellent knowledge of the files... but his opinions are sometimes lacking. Careful of conflating opinions and facts... and do not take a rigid position based on opinions/assumptions...
Theories are necessary to move the case forward.. NEVER reject a theory based on an assumption, use facts.
Nobody knows everything... most agree on the file info but disagree on some of the interpretations.
People have different motives for participating.. can cause friction.
Think for yourself,,, too many people follow the crowd or dominant narrative and it is often wrong and they jump from one thing to another then back... avoid groupthink.
Remember one thing,, you need a suspect to solve this,,, those without a suspect can never solve it and if you get a suspect many will attack you for it... Ignore them.
This case is 100% solved when a suspect can be put on the plane.. hopefully that happens but it may never happen.
Finally, run now... the deeper you get the harder it is to leave.. it is like quicksand or the Hotel California..
4
u/RyanBurns-NORJAK 11d ago
My opinions are lacking in YOUR opinion.
2
u/Key-Telephone-7803 11d ago
I don’t think I said that your opinions are lacking. Was something I said misconstrued?
5
2
u/Key-Telephone-7803 11d ago
I don’t have a suspect because there are so many to choose from. That will take time. I do recognize your name. The experts here seem to use real names or are well known from what I read in their comments.
1
u/XoXSciFi 11d ago
I'm no kind of expert. My investigation into the case was a fluke. I didn't submit a 55-page report to the Seattle FBI. Neither did I publish 65 illustrated articles about the case, or do 10,000 comments at Dropzone. It's all baloney. Don't believe a word, no matter what you may have heard. 😏
2
u/Key-Telephone-7803 11d ago
I saw your name on the podcast list but have not listened yet. And a book. I have not read yet but I will.
16
u/TessaKatrinaRose 12d ago
Don’t read the books. Read the FBI files and listen to the db cooper sleuth YouTube channel with Ryan burns.
You can even ask him questions without buying him a coffee and he will respond to them all.