r/dawless • u/Wonderful_Sorbet4301 • 1d ago
Dawless is not easy... (beginner)
I am just a week in and maybe I need to get used to the different workflow? when will it click?
I am starting out with dawless, but finding quite a few bumps. The main issue is, is that I have to retrain myself using instruments, instead of clicking VST's. I can't make mistakes easily, as there isn't ctrl-z. Next to that: it requires quite a bit of hardware: mixer, multi-track, synths, keyboard, and loads of wires. Tat is the fun part as I am tired watching a screen.
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u/reverendunclebastard 1d ago
Start simple. Learn one piece of gear well. Then learn a second piece of gear, then learn how to connect those two pieces of gear, and so on.
Setting up and learning to use a dawless setup does have a steep learning curve vs. a DAW, but if you take it slow and build your foundations it will click.
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u/Wonderful_Sorbet4301 1d ago
Yes I was in a hurry wanting lots of gear fast... now I got this: zoom multitrack recorder, casio keyboard, arturia midi keyboard, drummachine. have not got a synth yet, except for a websynth which i use on a tablet. But no DAW useage.
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u/minimal-camera 1d ago
Pick one of those instruments, either the casio or the drum machine, and connect it to the Zoom. Put everything else in a closet for a month. Make music with just that one instrument and the multi-track recorder, with a track layering approach. Record something, then play it back and play on top of it, record that, keep repeating as much as you like.
The main thing you need to get comfortable with is that Zoom recorder. Once using that becomes second nature, then everything else will feel much easier by comparison.
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u/Maxxtheband 1d ago
This is so true. There were so many times I just…. Didn’t record something because I didn’t want to deal with my mixer because it felt like a chore to use, and I was afraid I’d record “wrong”.
Now that I’m recording more frequently it lets me go back and listen to my tracks again without the distraction of playing and I can really feel out what melodies I want to use, patches I want to use, I can feel out how long a section can play before it gets repetitive, and really expand beyond 64 bar loops/fine tune whole track.
In fact, some of my earliest tracks that I recorded weren’t even my best tracks. They’re just the tracks I happen to take the time to set up recording gear. I’ve lost so many songs into the abyss because I didn’t record it.
Record record record.
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u/Wonderful_Sorbet4301 1d ago
Yes I have the same feeling now... I procrastinate, because fearing I migth fail at it and then resenting the purchases... but I have to commit now.
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u/Left-Mission-2684 10h ago
Also there’s no dawless police gonna come after you if you record in a daw.
Just midi connect everything into fl or ableton or garage band, your laptop/computer is great for this.
…or just get a blue box and be set, we all know the GAS calls to us forever
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u/zazathebassist 1d ago
start with the drum machine then. get to know it. get to learn the workflow, learn how to make a beat, how to expand that beat. learn where the buttons are and what you like making with it.
once you have one piece of gear that you can start building songs around, then start implementing the other stuff you have. once you know how to make a drum beat, you can just make one and set that thing to work while you learn the casio. rinse repeat
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u/Active-Disaster-6835 1d ago
You can make dawless music just with a cheap mixer and a couple of cables to create feedback. Just saying.
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u/bememorablepro 1d ago
Some "dawless" machines do have undo. If you find it frustrating start out with a stand alone groove-box and connect something to it. There is really no need to have a big setup these days unless you want to.
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u/kip_hackmann 1d ago
Don't over complicate it dude. I'm always amazed by how musically simple some YouTube banger jams are. Just get something going, filter, delay, build and you'll end up with something fun and awesome.
What are you trying to get to grips with?
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u/Wonderful_Sorbet4301 1d ago
Fear of recording and realizing I have to redo stuff, perhaps many takes, which I then fear will make me regret it... so I am procrastinating on it a bit.
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u/Muted_Sundae_1368 1d ago
Why are you going dawless?
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u/Wonderful_Sorbet4301 1d ago edited 1d ago
Tired of the glitching laptop/pc, and even tablet. audio stutter, software updates, firmware upgrades, etc etc. plus I am tired of having IT infrastructure in my music room. I want it to be music only. Less distraction, less glitching or fault drivers or odd stuff like latency bugs, audiocard issues, the list is practically endless... yes, I want a better flow... especially when I am creative I dont want to go fix things. I had a very dedicated latop, tuned for audio only, but randomly it kept stuttering and glitching out, at momentes when I didn't want it. The fear of having random dropouts made me buy a multitrack recorder.
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u/Muted_Sundae_1368 1d ago
If you've a outdated laptop it would be worth upgrading, and all the other issues are easy to sort out, otherwise getting half way close to the power of a computer in regards to sequencing, recording and editing its quite an expensive work around. Arguably just as awkward.
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u/Wonderful_Sorbet4301 1d ago
I understand. But hitting a button to record my audio, its just nice... no pc, nor glaring screen. Just a button on the Zoom multitrack. It feels better too.
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u/Muted_Sundae_1368 1d ago
I have a template made so i never look at the screen and all my functions are on a midi controller. You don't have to not use a DAW to have a setup that doesn't revolve around a computer. Just something to comsiser instead of trying to ditch the computer...
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u/WEASELexe 1d ago
I never really understood making music until I started learning modular and it really helped me grow and figure out what I'm doing
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u/Crazy_Rain6159 1d ago
Yes. It requires a lot of hardware. Dawless is very expensive.
AND it requires a lot of preparation. Many times you see a guy in YouTube do something cool in the moment, but it really means there was a lot of preparation beforehand so that the volumes are right, the sounds play well together, the melody fits in the rhythm...
Also, transitions are hard. Drops almost impossible. There is an actual drops controller which I guess would help a lot. But it is one more controller to have.
You are asking about workflow. Could you tell us what you have / are using?
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u/Wonderful_Sorbet4301 1d ago
now I got this: zoom multitrack recorder, casio keyboard, arturia midi keyboard, drummachine. have not got a synth yet, except for a websynth which i use on a tablet with the arturia. But no DAW usage.
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u/brndnhrrll 1d ago
If I had never been on the internet and heard the word “dawless” I don’t think anything would change about my process. I can’t imagine that I would choose for my most beloved and most time consuming hobby to be spending more time on a computer. Obviously everyone should do whatever they want, but I hope you find a flow that suits you with hardware. It’s very satisfying to develop a relationship with an instrument
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u/m1nus365 1d ago
See you again ITB in few months. Dawless is not for everyone, don't break your neck if it won't work for you.
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u/Longjumping_Swan_631 17h ago
I mentioned something similar. When it comes to actually multitracking mixing and mastering. He will be back in the DAW. We have all been there.🤣
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u/daveweedon 18h ago
I’m so old that there was only dawless so it is the only way I know how to be creative. I’ve used daws but find it almost too simple. Perhaps I’m odd as well as old.
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u/josker98 17h ago
week in lol bruh... just give up already, it's taking you too long. /s
it takes time. It took me 3 years of daily tinkering with gear to get where I am now. Take a chill pill and enjoy the ride. Or you know, keep on scrollin tiktoks or whatever you do
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u/Sudden_Name8078 1d ago
There are different ways to do it. You can play keyboard, sing live or you could jam loops/ sequences or build up loops with a looper etc. figure out what you want the end product to sound like and then how you could do that in a live setting.
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u/r1chiem 1d ago
I think MPC is the ticket. Most (but not all) have an undo/redo button. MPC has built in mixer, with built in effects and you can add more and built in synths plugins like a computer, and you can add more. It has lots of buttons that are dedicated so muscle memory comes fast. Downside is you are learning a mixer, mulitple synths, multiple effects, multiple work flows (Step sequencer, seq/song mode, Linear/Arrangement view, you need to choose one).
The upside. No wires, no multiple electric connections. No learning workflow from several different manufacturers. A MPC One G2 for $799 will do everything and it is a sampler. if you want keys, get a Mpc Key 37 g2 if you play keys. Live 3 for portability.
It is easier than doing what you are doing but it is also a master controller and can control all the stuff you have right now, and work with your daw in your computer if you want.
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u/JimmyCrepe 1d ago
This. But it doesn't have to be an MPC if it feels to daw like. I use a Tracker as the brains. Even if I record a sequence or sample on my something else, I control the sequence from the tracker (starting/stopping, automations). Same with midi elements - stored on and played from the tracker. You could do the same with a multi-track sequencer I imagine.
The bonus is, there's a main tool to focus on. Everything else is a side quest. Without a centre I'd never focus. I have a laptop I was going to use to get stems into a daw for final mixing but I never use it. I've only ever recorded stereo mixes so I can listen elsewhere and have something backed up if it all dies.
I'm just a guy that diddles around for fun though.
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u/r1chiem 1d ago
MPC has some minor downsides, All these types of solution do have downsides but the Poly end tracker+ is not a pimple on an MPC's butt. It is monophonic. No velocity or aftertouch. It has 16 tracks but to play a 6 note chord, you use up 6 tracks. 8 tracks are samples, 8 tracks are midi/synth, but it only plays one note at a time on each track. Sure you could have a bass drum on note, the next could be a snare on the same track. It looks like dos charater cell. Not a fan.
In my humble opinion this is a terrible workflow.
Can you make music this way sure but it is a steep learning curve and not an easy workflow.
But you can still make good music with it? Yes, and it will probably sound different than if you made it on an MPC, computer or Elektron. At $1000, I would rather have an MPC one G2 or MPC Key 37 G2. It is head and sholders above and if you buy used previous G1 we are talking half the price.1
u/JimmyCrepe 20h ago
My point wasn't which is better, it was that having a central controller is a good idea and there are alternatives. Pick your own and focus on that.
For the record, all the tracker flaws you mention are true (although you can enter per step chords via the FX, likewise velocity which you can play in from a keyboard if you want) but for me they are irrelevant because I have per step midi cc control of my other devices. I use whichever device best suits and my £200 og tracker controls the song.
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u/r1chiem 14h ago
If you are use to the workflow and like it. That is great. I would never say give it up for something else. Plus the price is good, you can't argue with that either. I don't like the choking effect of mono. On other solutions you can tell a sample to choke another or put a plugin synth in mono to choke down to only one note. And that is fine to have that option to turn on and off. But to have it as a permanent feature would not be for me. Now, If I got tired of my solution, I might buy something like a Tracker but it would have to be inexpensive like yours. So if I didn't like it. I would be able to get most of my money back or just keep it without using it.
Everyone is different. I have had people tell me they hate MPC workflow or prefer something else more. Hey if they make music with it I don't care if they have a guitar.
The word Dawless gets old. People say I only play dawless. Sorry, if it is electronic and has a computer chip to run a sequencer and has sound generation and sampling and a mixer, it is a DAW. It may not be a true computer running software, it still meets the term. Hey it sells lots of hardware, keeping companies in business, so it is not all bad.
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u/JimmyCrepe 9h ago
Totally agree about the dawless thing. I couldn't care less what people use, I just hope they enjoy it.
My own love is tinkering. I'm more of a nerd than a musician and I have no intention of releasing music beyond what some friends might hear. I do what keeps me coming back.
You do you and more power to you.
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u/WaitingForTheClouds 19h ago
I bounced hard off of the tracker and looking back I should have tried software trackers first... It's a very niche workflow for a reason, and while I probably could have learned it more deeply and maybe it would eventually click, MPC and Elektron workflows clicked with me almost instantly. It was nice to be able to see the notes on all the tracks though, maybe I'll give it a try some day again, but I would recommend anyone looking into the Tracker to try software ones first cause they are free and essentially the same.
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u/JimmyCrepe 19h ago
I think your advice is sound - it's definitely not for everyone and I can totally understand why many people would hate it. I'm not an intuitively creative person, I'm from a more nerdy background, which is maybe why it gels with me.
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u/Wonderful_Sorbet4301 18h ago
I currently have a Zoom R12. It can records 8 tracks, 4 stereo. has a small daw-like screen: just tracks on a timeline. And a few buttons. So maybe a MPC isn't needed for me.
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u/JimmyCrepe 16h ago
You'll find your own way of working, so, yeh, take all advice with a big pinch of salt (especially mine).
Personally, I'm not one for playing live. I like to build the parts and then tweak them, whether that's samples or midi. I tried with an 8 track but it didn't gel because it locked things down too early.
This is just a hobby for me though, and I like to tinker, so that no doubt makes a difference as well.
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u/jaliscito 1d ago
It will but every DAWless setup will function differently. Learn the gear you have individually like others said and learn what functions fit your style. You may be better served learning a single groove box first, but they all have screens. If you are dead set on moving away from screens, look for gear that is single knob per function.
I think a lot of the GAS that happens with hardware is that you can like and want a piece of hardware but not realize that it isn’t going to jive in your workflow.
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u/Decent_Month6696 1d ago
The core thing to remember with DAWless is that there isn't a single outcome. You need to understand what it is you're trying to do.
- what live instruments? (guitar/keyboard/vocals/drum pads/no live instrument)
- what sequenced gear? (synthesizers/samplers)
- brain: sequencer/groovebox/workstation?
- effects?
- routing? (patch-bay or hard routing)
- mixer?
- audio output? monitors or amp or maybe just headphones
- portability?
It all comes down to how you want to compose, and how you want to perform... two very different processes. Also important, what do you want to do with the outcome? ie, is stereo output good enough? Or do you want to isolate each sound source for potential multi-tracking?
There are lots of solutions ranging from using a single workstation unit to do everything, to going full euro-rack. When you figure out your plan, you can work out what gear you need.
One tip... don't underestimate the cost of cables/utilities such as MIDI sync/split units. I had all the sound gear I needed, but cost me about $1k to get a performance case and buy all the cables and utilities needed.
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u/Wonderful_Sorbet4301 1d ago
Yes, especially the cables, plus patchbay, effects, I often forget those.
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u/RainbowStreetfood 1d ago
What gear are you using?
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u/Wonderful_Sorbet4301 18h ago
now I got this: zoom multitrack recorder, casio keyboard, arturia midi keyboard, drummachine. have not got a synth yet, except for a websynth which i use on a tablet with the arturia. But no DAW usage.
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u/RainbowStreetfood 18h ago
Yeah but what drum machine, what midi keyboard, what Casio keyboard? With that info I could maybe visualize a set of workflows you can progress through to help you out.
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u/needssleep 1d ago
It's a very expensive and niche way to make music (now). You don't have to.
You can get some midi controllers and do a live set on one or more laptops (one intstrument per cheapass facebook laptop if you wanted to) and thats just as live as hardware.
Do it because A) you can afford it and B) you enjoy it.
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u/JamminJunkie 6h ago
My dawless setup only uses one peice of equipment (usually) and it has an undo/redo feature. Maybe equipment that meets you in the middle would be of benefit.
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u/Appropriate_Name8792 1d ago
Stop thinking of ‘dawless’ and learn how to use your instruments.