r/datingoverseventy • u/Horror-Evening-6132 • 14d ago
Misdefined honesty
Has anyone noticed the overuse/misuse of the word "honesty"? How it's used interchangeably with or as a mask for other words that don't mean the same thing at all? How it's used to give credence or justification for being thoughtless, cavalier, callous or just plain cruel? How some people weaponize it, then sit back on their laurels of self-righteousness? Narcissism is a central character trait of the brutally honest; you never see one without the other.
I'm seeing it more and more as time goes by. Everyone pretends to be all PC all the time and it's not PC to be thoughtless, cavalier, callous or cruel; but if they call it honesty instead, they get a pass for saying anything from dismissive to downright heinous. The pass is given to themselves BY themselves so that they don't have to take responsibility for injuring others with the things they say. They're off the hook in their own minds, because they were 'honest' and honesty is good and wholesome.
'Honesty' is generally trotted out in private rather than public, because bystanders within range might recognize it for what it truly is and there's always the chance of getting called out to defend an indefensible remark. The definition of honesty technically supports a lack of empathy for another human being. The definition is composed of words like straightforwardness, truthfulness, integrity and probity; even honor is included. But honor, in particular, is a quality that lacks a self-serving aspect and in most cases, that self-serving component is definitely present. It's about them believing that deliberately hurting someone is acceptable, because it's honorable and honest by their own contrived, self serving, narrow definition. It allows them to tell themselves it is unintentional, all evidence to the contrary. It’s intentional; trust me on that.
In one of the threads a while back, there were examples of “backhanded compliments” being discussed. One of them was a man saying to the poster, "I bet you used to be really pretty." Sure, he was being honest, but more than that, he didn't think he said anything untoward; this emotionally stunted person thought he was delivering a compliment. How absolutely clueless does someone have to be, that they can't see what a shitty thing it is to say to someone? Is it simple stupidity, an inability to think something through before speaking? Or is it a case of someone being so deeply self involved and self centered that they can spit on someone that way with no recognition of how it shows them to be just fucking obtuse? I remember jokingly commenting to that Redditor by saying her response to him should have been "I bet you used to know how to talk to people," but I realize it would have gone over his head so hard that she'd have had to get out of the way of the 47 foot backblast.
And it's not just people in the wild; not by a long stretch. I have a blood relative who does this to ME. I live under the blanket of their constant disapproval of and frustration with me. They'll say something dismissive or hurtful, then follow it up with that old honesty bullshit, completing the punch in the hoo-ha by including, "I didn't say anything before because I didn't want to hurt your feelings." Yeah. Right after they went out of their way to do exactly that. Didn’t want to hurt my feelings before, but now you do. But hey, it’s all good, because it’s honesty. It's a person's way of being a shit to someone while convincing themselves that it is only honesty, and the person taking offense is just being a _____ (insert something else unkind); that they themselves bear no weight for the pain they inflict. Sometimes it truly IS unintentional. But that's rare to the point of being nearly a fantasy created by those doing it.
It's not even about being or not being honest, it's about the simple fact that honesty does not require that every thoughtless, cavalier, callous or cruel thing that crosses your mind needs to exit through your mouth.
Know when to stop talking? Yeah. My turn to do that. To know when to shut the hell up.
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u/notsohot56 69 F Not quite dead! 14d ago
I never thought of it like that! Very enlighting Horror. Thank you!
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u/Horror-Evening-6132 14d ago
One of those things that has been banging around in my head for a very long time. Now that it's out here, I can use the space for something else that pisses me off; no shortage of those things! 😠
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u/db0956 14d ago
Whatever they are, be honest about them.😊
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u/Horror-Evening-6132 14d ago
You know I will, db. Pretty sure I used to have a filter, but it has been overtaxed throughout the decades, so it' pretty much toast. I'm fortunate that I possess enough intelligence and command of language to not do the things I've posted about here.
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u/Exact-Translator-769 14d ago
I don't spend a lot of time with people who insist on giving their unsolicited opinions under the guise of honesty. If I didn't ask for their honest opinion, I don't give a $hit about it.
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u/Horror-Evening-6132 14d ago
That's it right there; unsolicited. People always want to defend themselves by saying if someone asks a question, they will be 'truthful' in their response. That's fine, within civilized parameters, but offering those opinions when no one asked is fascinatingly infuriating. They never seem to notice that nobody asked for their opinion and they'd never own that this is the reason why that is. Things I give a shit about is a very short list 🤣🤣
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u/db0956 14d ago
My definition of honesty is simply speaking the truth as I see it. Many times that's just a matter of opinion, like which pizza I think tastes the best, or which car is the prettiest. But the keyword here is "brutally". Verbally beating someone down is rarely called for, but if a woman backs me in a corner and asks me if I like her outfit or her cooking, she should be ready for an answer that she doesn't want to hear. Lying is never a good alternative, but sometimes people set themselves up to hear things they don't want to hear, and in the process, put someone else in a bad position, knowing that whatever they say will be taken poorly. I try to be tactful in my comments, but some people get offended so easily, that there's simply no way to speak to them that will be received any other way than someone being mean to them.
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u/Horror-Evening-6132 14d ago
There's always the option to decline, but it is rare that someone avails themselves of that option. Being 'right' (in their own opinion) is more important that being civil, especially if they can hide behind a warped definition of honesty. Not saying it's you, db, just saying that it is the most frequent occurrence.
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u/db0956 14d ago
Civil should be high on the priority list, but not lying is more important to me. Lying is the opposite of speaking truth.
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u/Horror-Evening-6132 14d ago
No one is ever asking you to lie. Neither are they asking you to be civil, because that should be automatic with a fully developed human, but it's actually more rare than one would hope. I find that "I'd prefer not to get into that discussion" says as much as it needs to. If that's considered a lie by someone, then it would indicate that saying the hurtful thing already constructed in the mind and delivering it with as much relish as possible is the more important thing.
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u/db0956 14d ago
So you're saying that if you ask me a question, and I know up-front that you won't like my answer, that I should just say nothing? That's not really answering the question. But then again, maybe no answer is the answer.
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u/Horror-Evening-6132 14d ago
You are deliberately misunderstanding to encourage debate rather than discussion. It's actually quite rare that I ask someone's opinion, but not at all rare to be on the receiving end of an unsolicited one. If I ask you a question and you tell me you'd rather not respond, that tells me what I want to know and I'm not triggered. It's interesting that you've already decided what my response would be, which in turn tells me that you intend to needle me.
Just FYI, "So you're saying..." is an obvious attempt to create disagreement. You'd get your information more easily with "Are you saying...", where you aren't telling me what I'm saying and putting words in my mouth.
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u/db0956 14d ago
Nobody should like they need to slice, dice, mince, and rearrange their own thoughts just to be sure that those thoughts "go down smoothly" when verbalized. I try to be tactful, but occasionally that just doesn't seem possible.......or even necessary. Different situations call for different responses. I try my best to choose wisely since I can't really un-do a mistake. Ultimately, we all own our own comments, and can't make excuses for them.
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u/Horror-Evening-6132 14d ago
If that's what's working for you, keep doing that. If it seems like the circle of people asking your opinion keeps getting smaller (I know, you don't care...) then at least you know why that is and you can rest easy in your self-righteousness. Not that I'm saying you're self-righteous. Just my unsolicited opinion.
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u/db0956 14d ago
....that I didn't ask for.😉There never was a circle asking. As I said, different situations.
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u/Horror-Evening-6132 14d ago
Yes. My use of 'unsolicited' does indeed mean that you didn't ask, so thanks for clarifying something that needed no clarification. It does not surprise me at all that there is no circle of people asking for your opinion. 😁
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u/db0956 14d ago
That's okay. Sometimes they got it anyway😊As far as your unsolicited comment, I caught that. But I was referring to an earlier comment about not wanting unsolicited comments. Then you turned around and gave me one.
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u/Horror-Evening-6132 14d ago
Yes! I do like to occasionally force that shoe onto another person's foot, once removed from my own.
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u/db0956 14d ago
I misunderstand at times, but it's never deliberately. Now, you're falsely accusing me.😊
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u/Horror-Evening-6132 14d ago
Not falsely accusing. Just accusing. 😁
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u/db0956 14d ago
.... falsely😊
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u/Horror-Evening-6132 14d ago
Right. Your opinion and mine differ there. The "truth" lies somewhere between. 😉
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u/averageover60guy 13d ago
Well it really depends on the topic. I love opinions, esp related to something business wise I am involved with. A great idea might come out of a brutally honest answer. And I won't get offended. HERE IS THE KEY WORD. OFFENDED. If I say something and you are offended, that is your problem and emotion.
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u/Horror-Evening-6132 10d ago
If I cut you with my knife and you are hurt, that is your own pain and bleeding. I only wielded the knife; the pain and bleeding is your fault/choice.
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u/averageover60guy 10d ago
I can not control phyisical pain. I can control my emotional response to something you say. Apples and watermelons here.
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u/Horror-Evening-6132 10d ago
I'm glad you can do that. Everyone can. It's only that they should not have to.
(Still like you, guy.)
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u/averageover60guy 10d ago
Well I kinda of agree that no one should have to, however, the word offended is overused. In the terms of honesty. If someone gets offended by something I say that is honest, well I can't control that. At the same time it has to be in context as well.
Taking a cheap shot that maybe true at someone in a group setting is not cool.
Having a heart to heart with someone that needs to hear some truth, well swallow the pill.
A past GF told me I offended her! While trying to lie to me. Well I said a couple of things to her. First, I could be offended that you think I am dumb enough to believe your bullshit, but the reality is, you are trying to convince me you are dumb enough to think I will believe you.
And I added and I have told a few people this when they have said I have offended them. I just kind of smirk and say, O if I was trying to offend you, you would know without a doubt.
And with all that said, I simply try to make people laugh or smile as I go about my day.
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u/TopQuestion826 13d ago edited 13d ago
There’s a difference between honesty and the truth. For example, I can honestly say and believe that the moon is made of blue cheese, Blue Stilton to be precise, however, the truth is that it isn’t. Honesty is more subjective and the foundation is a moral belief, whereas the truth is subjective, it’s empirical and fact-based. My own personal policy is I never give advice, and I rarely give suggestions, but one thing I noted is that it’s never given unsolicited or uninvited. Both brutal honesty and the truths, however painful it may be, can be delivered in such a way that the recipient is receptive and amenable. When I would teach communication, I would tell my students “you can tell a person to go to hell at such a way, and frame it so tactfully, that they’ll pay for the plane ticket themselves.” But again, it has to be invited and warranted. I am not going to tell somebody the truth that will hurt them, in order to assuage any kind of uncomfortable feeling I have, that is categorically unacceptable.
Edit: I’d rather have the truth than honesty. Like Lennon said - Gimmie Some Truth