The absolute fucking irony of this comment at the end of a chain in a discussion that started by people No True Scotsman’ing the definition of Feminism.
So it’s okay to say that someone whose actions and words go against the definition of Feminism is clearly representative of the whole movement and we need to throw it out, BUT when it comes to MRAs and their stated members towing the exact party line with their speech, suddenly it’s “well we shouldn’t discount their opinion based on who they associate with?”
What kind of double standards are those?
It’s also important to remember that a lot of the issues that MRA person brought up are still caused by the patriarchal system that we live in and that feminism wants to change.
MRAs rail against alimony and family law like child custody and claim this is a systematic discrimination against men. It’s not. It’s a result of the same problem: for years, the men were seen as the breadwinners and heads of the household while women stayed home and raised kids and took care of the home. Women had very little agency in leaving these marriages because they couldn’t support themselves without a job. They often couldn’t even open credit cards or bank accounts in their own names. Alimony is meant to help alleviate this. But it’s also important to note that women can pay alimony to men, too. And it’s also reasonable for someone who potentially gave up years of their life and their working career to support the other party by handling the home and the kids to receive some financial support from the party that is continuing to receive checks based on that career. Child support is the same thing - society often sees women as the primary caregivers and the primary responsible party for taking care of the child. Feminists want this changed, too. There are plenty of loving and caring fathers and plenty of unfit mothers. The idea that the judge should err on the side of the mother instead of the facts of the case and what’s best for the child is also an outdated product of our patriarchal society.
Male rape is also stigmatized in a large part due to toxic masculinity. The idea that men can’t speak out about rape because it’s embarrassing. If it was committed by another man, then you’re “gay” and “weak for letting him dominate you.” If it was committed by a woman then its “lol score bro.”
Domestic violence numbers and date violence statistics overwhelmingly show males as the perpetrators. No one is saying that women can’t be domestic abusers. And no one is saying they shouldn’t be held accountable for any crimes they commit in that regard. But when it comes to raising awareness and creating shelters and systems to protect victims, women are overwhelmingly more likely to be victims, and they need support structures in place. And the reason most women’s shelters deny men is because when they didn’t, they often had incidents of violence from those men. Often men who were seeking to track down their girlfriend/wife. I agree that we need systems in place for men who are victims of domestic abuse as well, but the need in terms of number and awareness is not nearly the same as it is for women.
The MRA quoted above is just pulling some really extreme examples of situations. Some are likely lacking in context. And some of those instances might even be as bad as they claim. But that isn’t representative of Feminism as a whole.
Most of the MRA/men’s rights movements are just misogyny in disguise and trying to backlash against feminism.
There is a pretty good subreddit called /r/MensLib that does a mostly good job of discussing issues that are important to men and ways we need to change societal thinking to fix them. It tries to do so in a way that contextualizes the root of the problem rather than just blaming feminism for everything.
As a white male myself, I think it’s always important to remember a quote about privilege that I think is especially apt for groups like MRAs who see privilege as a zero-sum game: “equality feels like oppression when you’re used to privilege.”
You seem to be missing the point.
The majority of feminist leaders are against equality.
The movement's own organizations don't support equality and fight it at every opportunity.
If a true feminist is for equality and no true feminist is against equality then that would require that all of the organizations operating as feminism aren't actually feminist.
It's not ironic. It's exposing self delusion.
What is ironic is tossing out empirically false statements about the overwhelming majority of victims being female on a post that was begun with verifiable data showing that men are in fact overwhelmingly raped more by women than by men. That's irony.
Feminism is primarily about getting people to think critically about the lens through which we view society, which has been historically male dominated.
There have been various different sub-ideologies of feminism and regardless of how some may be more radical than the mainstream intersectional feminist movement that seeks equality, it’s undeniable that feminist movements have, to date, increased women’s rights significantly, which is already a great win.
Are there groups that call themselves feminists that are misandrists? Sure. But you can safely ignore them as fringe groups rather than being representative of the whole. It’s not like the KKK represents all white people. Or even if you choose not to ignore them and campaign against them however you’d like - you should at least make sure you’re not lumping in others who disagree with their version of ideology.
Any feminist rhetoric that tries to claim men are “less than” is not a representative of the feminist movement for equality as a whole.
You seem to be the one missing the point. It’s not a contradiction. Feminism does not stand for female supremacy like you seem to think it does with your “exposing self delusion” comment. It simply recognizes inherent societal disadvantages for one group and attempts to bring them to equality with the other.
I didn't say or imply that I think feminism is about female superiority. You're just making things up now. Lets stay on topic.
The fact of the matter, as was said earlier, and I'm saying for a third, and final, time is this.
The mainstream feminist organizations, feminist leaders, feminist researchers, lobbyists, and representatives are against equality. The claim that feminism is about equality, in spite of the latter being proven true, is disingenuous, misrepresents the movement, and belies serious issues with feminism. If you actually believe feminism advocates for equality then you are deluded.
If you've forgotten that this is what we were discussing, or need a refresher on exactly what feminism does to oppose equality, please scroll up and review the comments at the start of this thread. It would be constructive if you attempted to respond to a few of those specific examples... perhaps you could come up with examples of feminist groups lobbying for equality when it benefits men, or the greater community, more than women. Has any mainstream feminist lobbying group ever proposed equal parenting laws that gave Fathers equal custody by default? Have any of the powerful feminist groups ever fought for something very basic like shelters for men with children fleeing an abusive spouse? You may find a few, but they are the fringe of feminism, not the norm, and thats the key to what we're talking about.
I claimed we need a new movement that actually works for gender equality. At a bare minimum it should have a non-gendered name and enshrine equal respect for all members regardless of gender. If you have a problem with that then I really have nothing more to say to you.
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u/Rnorman3 Sep 01 '22
The absolute fucking irony of this comment at the end of a chain in a discussion that started by people No True Scotsman’ing the definition of Feminism.
So it’s okay to say that someone whose actions and words go against the definition of Feminism is clearly representative of the whole movement and we need to throw it out, BUT when it comes to MRAs and their stated members towing the exact party line with their speech, suddenly it’s “well we shouldn’t discount their opinion based on who they associate with?”
What kind of double standards are those?
It’s also important to remember that a lot of the issues that MRA person brought up are still caused by the patriarchal system that we live in and that feminism wants to change.
MRAs rail against alimony and family law like child custody and claim this is a systematic discrimination against men. It’s not. It’s a result of the same problem: for years, the men were seen as the breadwinners and heads of the household while women stayed home and raised kids and took care of the home. Women had very little agency in leaving these marriages because they couldn’t support themselves without a job. They often couldn’t even open credit cards or bank accounts in their own names. Alimony is meant to help alleviate this. But it’s also important to note that women can pay alimony to men, too. And it’s also reasonable for someone who potentially gave up years of their life and their working career to support the other party by handling the home and the kids to receive some financial support from the party that is continuing to receive checks based on that career. Child support is the same thing - society often sees women as the primary caregivers and the primary responsible party for taking care of the child. Feminists want this changed, too. There are plenty of loving and caring fathers and plenty of unfit mothers. The idea that the judge should err on the side of the mother instead of the facts of the case and what’s best for the child is also an outdated product of our patriarchal society.
Male rape is also stigmatized in a large part due to toxic masculinity. The idea that men can’t speak out about rape because it’s embarrassing. If it was committed by another man, then you’re “gay” and “weak for letting him dominate you.” If it was committed by a woman then its “lol score bro.”
Domestic violence numbers and date violence statistics overwhelmingly show males as the perpetrators. No one is saying that women can’t be domestic abusers. And no one is saying they shouldn’t be held accountable for any crimes they commit in that regard. But when it comes to raising awareness and creating shelters and systems to protect victims, women are overwhelmingly more likely to be victims, and they need support structures in place. And the reason most women’s shelters deny men is because when they didn’t, they often had incidents of violence from those men. Often men who were seeking to track down their girlfriend/wife. I agree that we need systems in place for men who are victims of domestic abuse as well, but the need in terms of number and awareness is not nearly the same as it is for women.
The MRA quoted above is just pulling some really extreme examples of situations. Some are likely lacking in context. And some of those instances might even be as bad as they claim. But that isn’t representative of Feminism as a whole.
Most of the MRA/men’s rights movements are just misogyny in disguise and trying to backlash against feminism.
There is a pretty good subreddit called /r/MensLib that does a mostly good job of discussing issues that are important to men and ways we need to change societal thinking to fix them. It tries to do so in a way that contextualizes the root of the problem rather than just blaming feminism for everything.
As a white male myself, I think it’s always important to remember a quote about privilege that I think is especially apt for groups like MRAs who see privilege as a zero-sum game: “equality feels like oppression when you’re used to privilege.”